To all the VS who don't think ZOE Is overpowered

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Ned, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. MajiinBuu

    Zealot Overdrive Engine is not overpowered
  2. jak

    That should be "players", not VS. I suppose people forgot how many NC used the Hacksaw for the first few months post release...
    • Up x 1
  3. Posse

    No, but if there's a significant difference between the VS and the TR AI weapons, we can attribute it to the difference between ZOE and Lockdown since the weapons are pretty similar.

    Learn to read.

    The perception of the Lancer being subpar persists to this day, and it's been out for a longer time than ZOE.

    The "doing better" part is what there is no evidence about, that's exactly my point.
  4. Twitch760

    Simple fix to all this make MAXes unrezzable.
    • Up x 1
  5. Messaiga

    That would just make things worse, since they cost a lot and have cooldowns too, yet they are not really all that durable.
  6. Konfuzfanten

    Yes, you will always have ppl whining about weapons in a FPS game. Thats just part of it, but some of those whines are justified. Actually a lot of the major whines have made PS2 better.

    The list you made about weapons getting nerf, i think 95% of those weapons needed to be nerfed, because they where just too powerful, they ruined the competitive balance that a FPS needs.

    About the ppl that whine about weapons getting nerfed:
    Most of them are self entitled crybabies.

    I perfer the current "way of nerf": whine about it enough on the forum and the devs will do something about it...sooner or later.

    But you are right, on a personal level i dont really care, i just go with whatever is broken/OP that month and enjoy the ride :p

    Ofc not, its around as balanced as the TR harasser or the old striker.
  7. Gavyne


    Like it or not, I do think this is one of those simple across the board solution to MAX issues, one which allows them to nerf MAX's without nerfing the actual weapons or abilities.

    In a given bio labs fight, just think how many times you've been camped by the same MAX units, the same MAX units that you've killed several times but they just kept getting rezzed over and over. If SOE wants better battle flow, make sure MAX can't be rezzed. This will allow attackers to actually penetrate through better rather than having a bunch of ZOE Max camped around the corner with medics ready to rez them when they fall. Making MAX's unrezzable will also make players play them more carefully, so they don't just rambo them and know they can mow down 3-5 targets before they die....and know they could get rezzed right back up to continue mowing.

    Sometimes the simple solution is the better one. Unfortunately this is something SOE devs should've thought about already. They could've fixed a lot of problems they are having with this one simple change, without going in and butchering the building/base design.
  8. BITES

    And this has basically been your goal the entire time ... be SO ANNOYING and blatantly ignorant that you win an arguement through attrition. What a ham, this is the only point you've had "I am more annoying and persistent than the other guys". You are constantly ignoring the supplied data with bleats of "SHOW ME THE PROOF" .. but not supplying or proving your own.

    Can you at ANY POINT in ANY WAY show ANY data or fu*k any coincidental data to back you point? ... SHOW ME THE MONEY. Stop flapping your a$$ and put up or shut up, honestly everyone wants the latter, since at no point have you brought up ANY good points or relevant data to support your argument.
    GOOD .. so your are already ready for the inevitable and you can adapt because when it comes (And its coming thats clear) because when SoE reduces the clearly broken skill to something more in line with the others (without including the plethora of other dynamics you like to try divert attention to every time...), do everyone a favour and stop posting the same tired BS ... we get it .. your the creationist at an Evolution party. Your constant "DONT LOOK AT THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN" bullsh!t is well overplayed.
    • Up x 3
  9. Twitch760


    They should be valued assets right now any MAX knows they can just run into a room without a second thought and engage and get killed and be rezzed within seconds and repaired back to full. Vehicles cannot be rezzed why should MAXes which are treated like vehicles in some respects be any different? You should suffer a penalty for being stupid and rushing into a room and getting yourself killed.
    • Up x 2
  10. jak

    Yes, but keep in mind ZOE affects AV weapons as well, which don't have quite the commonality as the AI weapons. Plus, what do you do about the NC comparison? See my point? The more you add things that are less common, the more you can't quantify the data to indicate a definitive answer.

    Let's look at the simplistic capabilities of each MAX ability per empire - Attack, Defense (in the sense of damage taken), Movement.

    TR - Increase, neutral, decrease
    Now, the neutral in defense could be taken as a negative because lack of movement increases the likelihood you'll get shot, so it's a borderline negative IMO. Now, given the lack of chokepoints that allow you to bunker up in most bases, the ability isn't something that is overwhelmingly useful. You need Line Of Sight to hit stuff, but that also makes you an immobile target...
    NC - Decrease, increase, neutral
    The decrease in attack is there because you simply can't attack. Most every Aegis I see is one trying to turtle from incoming enemies, not going forward to get in effective killing range. This is pretty much a niche ability outside of its pure defensive capabilities. It may be useful as a mechanism to reload in safety, but that's...not really all that great.
    VS - Increase, decrease, increase
    I almost put neutral in for defense because an increase in movement speed is bordering on an increase in defensive capabilities. Technically, in a purely static environment, your defensive capability is reduced, but most intelligent players don't stand in one place (though it appears that Waterson has a notable amount of players that forget you can move during combat). It's a pure upgrade to Charge given you have the ability to toggle the ability on/off.

    Those are the criteria that make it clearly obvious to me that the ZOE is out of whack from a design point of view. Not to mention you can mitigate the damage increase by taking kinetic armor (or flak). Not only do you get a better overall ability than the other two empires, but the suit slots directly work to mitigate your single weakness.
    • Up x 3
  11. Posse

    I'm talking strictly AI balance, for AV the Fractures are better anyway.

    NC is not needed to conclude VS is OP or not, just looking at the difference between VS and TR is enough, if we want to see if the NC MAX is UP, then that's another matter.

    It's not like the increase in attack is that relevant, it's only 1 less bullet to kill infantry, which, since you fire 2 shots at once, actually doesn't change the TTK in certain situations, but I think I could live with the damage buff removed, it wouldn't change a lot outside MAX vs MAX engagements.
  12. Purg


    I recall Higby once suggesting that the TR MAX figures were low due to the fact that they were the most pulled MAX - presumably there's a point reached where the lower skilled players start to impact the statistics in a negative way.

    The VS MAX is now the MAX that's pulled with higher regularity yet its stats are greater than TR/NC.

    Odd.
  13. BITES

    No sensible conclusions please .... this is not the place for that sort of carry on.
    ;)
    • Up x 1
  14. jak

    Well, if I'm being totally transparent, I actually think the movement speed is what makes it OP when you factor in the extra damage. There's part of me that thinks you should get an offensive decrease, but at that point you have a pretty gimped charge ability lol. It's not an easy answer, though (btw, I'm the last one that wants MAXes buffed...).
  15. Predator01cz

    tl;dr:
    Vixen posts:
    Guys, can't you see that you're all making assumptions and statistics are no ruler to measure by? There is absolutely no problem with ZOE maxes, as you can see, fracturer TR MAX sometimes counters it, and also scatMAX can kill it before reloading, because you absolutely can't keep the 5+m distance needed to just laugh at him. Let's not nerf anything ever. See? I'm the good guy. Nerfs never fix anything, thus nerfing this absolutely average-performing unit is completely unthinkable.

    Other VS posts:
    OMG l2p nabs, obviously you can't keep up with our superior tactic play and natural ADAD movement. TR max has a suicide offense bonus, NC max has reloading defense bonus, 1TR+1NC=2VS bonuses duh... It's so clear that 30% of infantry are ZOE MAXes for the sole purpose of them being fun to play, and by fun to play I mean super easy to kill enemy infantry, and by super easy to kill I mean they don't have as many counters to ZOE maxes as they have to NC/TR maxes, and that is totally not the definition of OP. Besides hurr durr Strikorz/VulcanYOLOriderz

    TR posts:
    Don't bring up our weapons of pure skill you nabz and l2p. ZOE needs nerf nao. TR lockdown was usefull the first week as AA turret, just like Phoenix, now they're just toys. NC max got nerfed the second after showing that dual heavy shotguns were doing exactly what you would expact dual heavy shotguns do, now ZOE's are doing the exact same thing, except the can even kill stuff outside 10m radius and move like sprinting infantry on top of that. NERF NAOOOOOO!!!!!!!

    NC posts:
    Our MAX used to look good in Biolabs... Now it just looks good on the screen of weapon terminal.
    We want our Biolabs back.

    Let's for a moment try to ignore the fact that the very ZOE mentality completely negates the mentality behind MAX unit and try to come up with some suggestions to Vixens liking (no nerfs):


    Make NC MAXes have more health/armor - They already have the most situational weaponry, which their utterly sacrificing to become a slow moving bullet-absorbing wall in heroic attempt to help advance his comrades who are hiding behind him... Might as well make it a few steps further since ZOE can just Leeeroy every fight with his FAR SUPERIOR tactics that we NC can never ever ever learn

    Buff TR Max somehow - For the love of god buff their weapons besides fracturers, so it won't be THE omniweapon for every situation. Somehow I'm not having much problem with TR Maxes, maybe give them dual vulcanz or smth, so they'll be equally OP as ZOE, then I'll percieve them as equally strong enemies and I will think that everything is OK.

    I have no ideas about how to buff the lockdown ability, it's just stupid, making you a simple target and on top of that everyone calls you a camper (which is understandable since you're freaking nailed to the ground) even though much more fitting name would be glorified engie turret.

    Equip VS MAXes with deployable disco balls and DJ mixer - Because when entire squads of only ZOE Maxes storm your room/Biolab/TechPlant/AMP/.. and there's no other infantry type to be seen, who else is going to make the atmosphere complete?
  16. Posse

    As I said before, I'm more than willing to change ZOE for Jetpacks :D (though every single TR/NC LA will whine forever if that happens)

    But seriously, you can't change the speed factor, that would be destroying the skill.
  17. jak

    Haha, bring back the PS1...though their weaponry wasn't nearly as lethal as Blueshifts. :p

    You're going to have to rework something, man. I mean, what can you do to the other abilities that could possibly bring them in line with the ZOE's abilities while not making PS2 MAXside2? Add a timer to ZOE might work, but they'd still be superior to the other empire alternatives...
  18. Purg


    As a ZOE MAX user, it's more the strafe speed and the walking speed than the speed it can reach. When I'm firing, I'm strafing so it's harder to catch that rocket from the guy I didn't notice when I stormed a room. The speed at which it can walk and fire is a massive benefit. The other thing is that the ZOE MAX is almost silent. Try and flank enemy with NC MAX, it's near impossible (speed of them aside) because of the clomping.

    The speed has to be balanced somehow. Perhaps a bigger COF penalty when moving. Either increase the sound a VS MAX makes or significantly increase the noise ZOE makes. Why should only NC be burdened with 'I'm over here!!' traits? We warn you before we're going to MAX, Phoenix or Raven you.
    • Up x 1
  19. Posse

    Mmm, yes, the strafe speed could be toned down a little

    I blame their lack of enlightenment and faulty production lines :p
  20. ohmikkie


    Not in my experience and that is with +5Flak.