I've nearly completed my quest to Auraxium my engineer. I'm just over 100 kills away from Auraxiuming the AI MANA Turret (AIMT) and honestly...... I AM DISAPPOINT. I'm sure that this'll come as no surprise to anybody that's really given the thing a long look, but the AIMT is pretty seriously underpowered in my opinion. Let's give this thing a detailed going-over and see whether it really does need some buffs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TL;DR AIMT has the accuracy (tapped) for ranged combat, but not the damage. AIMT has the damage for mid-ranged combat, but without the RoF or accuracy (auto). It's a battle rifle with HALF the damage which forces you to be a stationary target to use it. AIMT has very few places where you can use it without getting dead. When you do use it in those places, you'll probably still get dead because of flankers, stalkers and bolt-****ters. And even if none of those are around, because so many people shoot for headshots and you've got such a sub-par weapon, you'll probably get dead a bunch of the time anyway. If you insist on using the AIMT, use it for cover while you fire your primary. Better yet, cert into the Spitfire, because at least Beepy isn't actively trying to kill you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STATISTICS Disclaimer : I couldn't find reliable stats for this thing anywhere other than Iridar's awesome webpage, so I've used his data without corroboration. Let's start off with the damage model of 143 @ 10 - 125 @ 65. This is the same damage model as mid-range / generalist AR's and the same close-range model as most carbines and LMG's (but with somewhat better drop off - by one tier - i.e. it will almost never make any difference). It's rate of fire is a lackluster 550 rpm, slower than pretty much all automatic weapons except the longest ranged weapons (e.g. Ursa, TMG-50 and SAW LMG's; Pulsar, Cougar and Razor carbines; and Corvus, Reaper DMR and Gauss S AR's - TR don't even have an AR that fires this slow!) all of which have far better damage profiles. It's velocity is 600 m/s, which is mid-range for AR's and LMG's, but faster than most carbines. It has a starting CoF of 0.1, which is the standard non-"accurate, long-ranged" CoF for AR's, LMG's and carbines. It has a bloom per shot of 0.12, which is double most of the AR's, LMG's and carbines, and on the same order as battle rifles and semi-auto scout rifles. Finally, it has a maximum CoF of 0.75 which, while none of the weapons I can find have a maximum CoF, is almost as bad as an ADS shotgun (and worse than the Baron's ADS CoF!). So, to summarise the weapon's stats, we've got : the damage model of a mid-range, mid-RoF weapon; the low RoF of a long-ranged weapon (which drops even further, given that you have to tap-fire in order to maintain accuracy); the velocity of a mid-ranged weapon; and adequate starting accuracy which becomes shotgun-level bad as soon as you try to auto-fire it, essentially mandating tap-firing. Basically we've got a weapon that has the accuracy (tap-fired) to perform at long ranges, but without the damage to do so and the damage and velocity to perform at mid-range, but without the RoF and accuracy (auto) to do so. And don't get started on CQC, because being glued to a turret with a fixed firing arc allowing you to be easily flanked and murdered is a non-starter. The AIMT is essentially a battle rifle (and we all know what people say about those) with HALF the damage, which forces you to be a stationary target to use it! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS Let's look at a few practical considerations now. The AIMT has a frontal shield that protects you from all damage sources except around the feet and head in exchange for being a basically stationary target. I know that technically there is some head protection as well, but the angles at which it does protect you are so limited that I've ignored it. Because of the lack of head protection and the fact that it locks you into a stationary position, the AIMT is basically a "free kill, shoot here" target for snipers meaning that there are virtually no places where you can use it outside of a building..... and even in a building, you need to make sure that you're clear of any long-ranged firing arc through a door or window that would allow a sniper to headshot you, further limiting your placement. Then, because of the "exit vehicle delay", which makes you particularly vulnerable to explosives tossed your way, you need to position yourself away from anywhere that allows the enemy to easily throw grenades at you, and away from any surface that a rocket launcher (or similar splash weapon) could use to drop splash on you, since your shield doesn't protect against that. All of which combines to even further limit your potential placement. Having found a good place to stick your turret, you now need to worry about whether to sit in it or not. If you choose to sit in it, you're basically a free kill for anything that flanks you since, between lag compensation, the exit delay and having to locate and target your enemy once you do exit, there's a damned good chance that you'll be dead before you lay even a single round on your killer. So, obviously the answer is not to sit in the turret, right? Well.... sure.... unless you ever plan to get any use out of the thing. Given that you need to use your turret at reasonably close ranges indoors to avoid snipers, if you only enter the turret when you see a target there's a pretty decent chance that he'll be able to run straight past you and murderise you from behind while you're trying to : glue yourself to the turret; aim at your target; and then do enough damage to kill him (while he's in your limited firing arc) with your mediocre damage, appallingly low RoF and the sub-33% accuracy of even fairly good players! Not to mention that a substantial amount of indoors combat in PS2 is all about doorway peeking and such. If you're not in your turret as they peek, you won't even get a shot off before they're back into cover. So, since we need to get kills with the turret rather than, for example, laying down suppressive fire or something, you basically have to accept that the majority of the time you're going to be better off sitting in your turret and hoping your mines (you did place mines, right?) and allies can cover your flanks (and taking your lumps when they inevitably fail to do so). That leads us to our next problem...... CQC bolt-****ters (which make up a non-insignificant portion of the playerbase!). If one of these is around, you can basically give up using your turret for the rest of the fight. After allowing for lag compensation and human response time, the chances of you being able to identify an infl shimmer, target the shimmer and kill them with your moderate-damage-low-RoF weapon before they uncloak and insta-kill you with their zero-TTK, point-'n-click, one-hit-kill genocide stick are close to zero. And EVEN IF they miss the shot (on a big fat stationary target!), given your poor TTK there's a darned good chance they can duck back into cover before you kill them, pop a skill-stick, and come back for another go. So where does that leave us..... well, we're stuck indoors with massively limited positioning to avoid long sight lines and explosive spam, we've placed mines (hope you certed into those!) and hopefully have allies (lol, right?) to cover our hugely vulnerable flanks, there's no bolt-****ters around, and we're all ready to shoot some planetmans. We're golden, right? Not quite..... See, the current meta in PS2 is all about headshots (whenever reasonable) because it gives you the best TTK's and means you win more fights. This means that anybody who's even vaguely competent (i.e. the dudes you actually have to worry about and, in an ageing game population - an ever increasing proportion of players!) will, when presented with a nice stationary target where the head is nicely outlined for clear viewing and completely unobstructed, aim for headshots. However, even before we take accuracy/skill into account, there's a couple of more relevant details (percentages being based on AR's, LMG's and carbines, being the most common weapons) : the other dude is moving, you are a stationary target; there's a 33% chance that the other dude's weapon does more damage than yours; there's a 90% chance that the other dude's weapon has a better RoF than yours; and there's a near-100% chance that the other dude's weapon is more accurate than yours. Even after all the limitations we've discussed above, when absolutely everything goes your way, even when skill is equal or marginally in your favour there's an 80% likelyhood (estimated, based on above) that you're simply going to be outshot by a superior weapon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONCLUSIONS I really want to like the AIMT, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's a massively inferior weapon. You're far better off using it as cover while you fire your primary than you are actually using the AIMT. You'll have most of the shield benefit, without being immobile and easily flanked, and you'll almost certainly be firing a better weapon! The AIMT has massively limited placement options (assuming you don't want to be an easy kill), making it particularly situational. It's particularly vulnerable to explosive spam and bolt-****tery and flanking and stalker infils, making it even more situational. And even in the very few situations where it isn't basically guaranteed death, even in it's tiny niche, it's a stunningly sub-par weapon! I could excuse the niche-ness of the weapon, if it was really good at it's job, but to be so niche and then to be poor at your role is simply inexcusable. I'll ***** about the AV MANA Turret some other time, but my current opinion on turrets is that you're almost always better off using the lowly, much maligned Spitfire, because it's the only turret that isn't going to actively get you killed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SOLUTIONS I don't like raising problems and complaining about stuff without offering potential solutions as well. I'd like to see : CoF Buff - Initial CoF is fine, being the same as most non-"accurate" weapons, but I'd like to see the CoF bloom buffed from it's current 0.12 to 0.06, which is the high end of most auto-fire weapons, allowing the AIMT to actually fire in bursts without shotgun level accuracy. RoF Buff - The current RoF of 500 is far too low to be viable in the situations where the AIMT is forced to operate. I'd like to see it buffed to around 675-700, which is the low end of the mid-range weapon scale. Heat Buff - Far and away the best defence I've ever found for dealing with bolt-****ters is simply to spam bullets in areas they might be, just in case - just short bursts to check if anybody's there, lining up a headshot on you. Unfortunately, if you do this regularly, you're gonna be out of heat when you have a target to actually shoot at. As such, I'd like to see the AIMT get a longer overheat time, even if you just expand the amount of time that each cert upgrade gives you. Vehicle Controls - I'd like to see the turret gain access to the vehicle control panel, allowing us to give our squad / platoon access to it while we're busy doing other things (like repairing MAX's or whatever). Damage Resistance - I'd like to see just enough explosive damage resistance added to the player manning the turret to tank a small amount of explosive damage without having to disengage and run away the second you see a rocket launcher or grenade toss. Perhaps something on the order of lowish range flak armor (20%-25%). You'd still die to direct hits and near-explosions, but splash would be a little less effective. The engy could get around this by wearing flak armor when he's planning to use a turret, but if 3. above goes ahead, it would be kinda necessary for whoever does man the turret as they're unlikely to be using flak armor at the time. Finally, I'd like to see EITHER: a fully enclosed frontal shield which is destroyable with enough damage (say, 3 rockets for example). In this case, the shield would need to be separately destructible from the turret, and it would need to regenerate over time like other shields do. OR enough small-arms damage resistance added to the player manning the turret to allow him to survive (barely) a single BASR round or two SASR rounds. I'm concerned that this one might be a little OP, which is why I'd far rather see the first option. All in all, of the above solutions I think that 1), 2) and 3) are absolutely essential to make the AIMT decently viable. 4) is a QoL improvement that would be extremely useful, but is not absolutely required. 5) is predicated on 4) going ahead, so while it's kinda necessary, it's also not actually required. Finally, one of 6)'s options would somewhat decrease the situationality of the AIMT and so while not required it really is pretty necessary. I'm concerned that 6.2) would be OP, so I'd far rather see 6.1) go through. Obviously, all of the above would need to be tested thoroughly to avoid making the AIMT into a murder-machine, and ideally I'd like to see it balanced in two phases (and yes.... I know all about DBG and the mythical "Phase 2"). First phase would input the buffs above, second phase would tune it based on the results. I know it's been a massive wall 'o text, so if you've made it this far, thanks for reading!
Yes, I haven't bothered using the AI MANA as a weapon since Beta. It was always simply safer to use it as cover (a glowing decoy, really) and shoot with my carbine. I've equipped Hardlight Barrier on all of my Engineer loadouts. If I wanted to shoot infantry and vehicles, I'd have better success with an Archer or Battle Rifle over either of the MANA turrets. Given the limitations of the turrets and how much setup is required, their being so weak and vulnerable makes them a deathtrap to use. In regards to the suggestions: 1. I think accuracy should stay as is in favor of other changes. One unique perk of the AI is that the recovery speed is extremely fast. Releasing the trigger for even one tenth of a second is enough to return it to the 0.1 degrees spread. You could practically feather the trigger and keep near perfect accuracy while firing close to the full rate of fire. 2. A higher rate of fire would be agreeable. Engineer is going to have infinite ammo for his carbine anyway, the AI MANA with a rate of fire comparable to the typical 143 damage primaries of 700~ RPM shouldn't be an issue given the other vulnerabilities of manning the turret. 3. The current heat variables are already quite good, but perhaps the cooldown delay might be the thing if any part of heat were to be improved. Currently the Max Rank AI MANA can fire 120 shots over 13 seconds before overheat, and then takes just over four seconds to cool down from full overheat. Meanwhile, ceasing fire has a one second delay before it begins to cool. If that cooldown delay were only half of a second or so, that would be a small but effective enough tweak to allow for more active management of heat. 4 would be nice... but at the same time, any other Class would be better off using their own rifles and staying mobile to fight enemy infantry. I think the AI MANA is best left as an Engineer exclusive. On the other hand, I wouldn't oppose allies using the AV MANA. Those like the Medic or Infiltrator could benefit from having a ranged AV option offered to them indirectly through teamwork. I think that for #6, rather than a full shield, the AI MANA needs a face shield. A 550 health faceplate would be just enough to take a bit of small arms fire, or two bolt action rifle shots at long range before the face shield goes down. That would give it a bit of defense to its biggest weakness (a nice framed forehead for snipers to one-shot), enough time to either jump off and take cover, or find the sniper and shoot back. The back and sides remain exposed so the Engie still has to consider good placement versus flanking.
I wasn't really thinking that much about pure infantry fighting though.... I was thinking about e.g. allowing your medic to use it against an enemy MAX, so he can still put out damage without particularly risking himself in the process; or making infils more viable in squads again.... most of the squads I play in won't allow infils at all (too squishy and not enough DPS from most weapons), and instead simply require the engy to run with a detect-X-bow. Having the infil man the turret would improve his survivability and damage output, along with providing motion spotters and letting the engy get on with his other work. I really like this idea. It's something I didn't think of, and is almost certainly an improvement on my ideas. My only concern on this one is the potential difficulties in implementation - I'm not sure DBG has staff with the correct skills to pull this one off AND who isn't far busier on more important things.
The turrets definitely need something. It seems all of the engineers loadouts need a bit of amping and remodeling. We also need new ways for infantry to take on air support besides relying on maxes and lock on heavy rockets.
The AI turret is realy situational. If you shoot at somebody and your head is exposed, well be ready to get a hit there. The old Vanu shield was much better protection for the head, leaving just a tiny strip in the middle open. The turret itself can stay as it is, it is the defense that is lacking. The shield should cover the head, and maybe leave the legs/lower turret more open.
Agree. His turrets are basically semaphores telling other people to kill him. As soon as you put a turret down you risk getting a headshot from a sniper and whatnot.
I hardly ever used the Mana AI. Though in certain circumstances it is extremely useful, mainly holding a door in a Biolab. However the absolute worst thing about it was you were basically a free kill for an Infiltrator. Now with Robotics Specialist. I'm guessing you are no longer a OHK with a sniper rifle - making it a much more attractive tool?!
Yeah, hopping on a turret that leaves the weakest part of the engineer vulnerable is just fodder for anyone with half-decent aim.
they should raise the front shield some, so that you need a little elevation to headshot. even just a couple boxes/crates up required to start hitting the head would make a world of difference as it would prevent the biggest problem (you can go head to head and still come out on top)
So you need to RNG grind or pay for that implant to make turret effective? That just shows how inefficient it is and that it needs a rework.
Have it, got it maxed out, and don't notice a damn difference. Still a one-hit kill for guys who manage to fire a BASR while invisible due to poor connection/ upload speed on their end, still dying to endless rocket spam, and still getting killed in the time it takes for the game to register the command to leave the turret and actually hand over control of the character. Frankly I would get rid of the shield entirely at this point. Too many people, developers included apparently, can't seem to wrap their head around how little actual protection that shield gives outside of 1 in 10,000 situations and use its existence to justify all the other glaring problems. Instead increase the ROF to something seen on a real machine gun - 1200 rpm - and turn down the COF bloom. The result is as much protection as the old shield, but due to fear that in that one or two seconds of exposure eating so much lead that no amount of cheese over-shield plus regen stick will save them even without head shots.
