Thoughts on the new Carbines?

Dps is how you measure damage output.

Not rof or damage per bullet.

Dps combines the rof and damage per round and gives you the actual damage output in a constant, seconds

The reaver does 2112 dps inside 200 meters vs 1875 for mosquito. What this means is that for every second you are on target with the reaver you are doing 237 more damage than the mosquito. The mosquito empties a magazine in 4.9 secs vs 5.3 secs for the reaver.

So the reaver is putting out 237 MORE damage for every second its on target and its doing this for .4 secs LONGER. On top of that it has a shorter reload at 2.4 vs 2.5 secs.

at 300 plus meters it gets even worse for the mosquito vs the reaver. Min dps for the reaver at this range is 1778 vs 1400 for the mosquito. Again the reaver is capable of producing this dps for .4 secs longer. So at ranges greater than 300 meters the reaver is doing 378 more damage per second than the mosquito.

THIS IS reality.

Kinda funny to see all the NC players get their panties in a bind after getting just ONE bad gun. Try TR and VS weapons, my pals. You have it made in your arsenal, lmao. NC has the best of everything, and the delicious sweet tears of the max nerf makes it even better.

Fyi, the VS gun is mediocre and the TR Kindred isn't anything to write home about.

Kinda funny to see a steryotypical tr make a generalized assumption based off of ~3 users who play as nc. Did I just assume your personality type - maybe. Based off of how you feel about the NC max I'm kinda inclined to feel I might be right. Am I unhappy about the carbines? I have no idea, have done 0 testing. Don't like to make claims without being able to back them up.

I think all three are great ideas and make for very enjoyable weapons and so far I have very much enjoyed playing with the Charger.
I do wish it had barrel attachments, not sure why it is lacking any choices at all in that category especially as the assets are already there from the Gladius/MGR stockpile, could it be because they felt there was no point giving it a flash hider or suppressor on account of the glowing yellow "Here I am!" lines? Haha!
I also feel that having the only choice of ammo attachment actively working against the gun's own special bonus (The bonus applies only after a reload, the ammo makes your reloads take longer; overall you will therefore experience longer between bonuses being applied) is a strange choice but i'm in no position to discuss numbers and such, I just pull the trigger.

Lemme tell it to ya' like this: Those DPS numbers are not realistic. They are theoretical numbers for theoretical engagements and only demonstrate maximum capabilities. In actual engagements no one has 100% accuracy, which affects DPS.

If you do the DPS calculations again using 30%, 50%, and 80% accuracy you will see significant differences. As is, missed shots decrease the DPS of lower-RoF weapons by a greater percentage than higher-RoF weapons. The Reaver's nosegun is better because it requires better aim against smaller targets.

Theory (in this context) literally the exact opposite of reality.

Yet again, you dont understand dps.

Post the numbers using any such realistic and imperfect accuracy.

Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong.

You are both interpreting things differently. Dps can be viewed as a snapshot over a specific period of time or infinite period of time. Specific periods are more applicable here because guns have reload times to factor in and players have limited health.

You can’t have a gun that does more dps, fires for longer on the same mag, but then does LESS dpm(mag). The math doesn’t work here. The 75rd Needler mag at 750rpm empties in 6 seconds, outputs more damage per mag, and the reaver has to reload sooner. Dps here is a game of catch up in the beginning. The reaver will have a higher dps until it starts to reload, then the mosquito will overtake the cumulative dps (total of 11250 vs 10450) until the mustang starts to fire again. This continues until the 3rd reload at which point the mustang overtakes the all cumulative and future dps.

ESFs are a good example of balance through differences. As Campagne mentioned the mustang gun strengths are offset by fighting smaller targets as well as agility differences which I believe are attributed to weight/acceleration. In game the main noseguns have relatively similar performance in kph and kpd(death) across all servers compared to other category comparisons like FS harasser weapons, MBT secondary weapons, or max weapons. Personally I perform worse in a reaver, but either way I’m going to lose if I duel a skilled pilot.

30% dps is still the same linear proportion for each weapon.. it’s not some exponential scale. The only difference is in total number of hits to kill. If it takes 6 shots to kill (167/600rpm) vs 7 shots (143/750rpm), at 30% accuracy you’ll now need to fire ~18 shots vs ~21shots. This isn’t changing the DPS in any way but it is changing the TTK from 0.6s and 0.56s to 1.8s and 1.68s respectively. This of course makes sense because a 0.04s difference in ttk over 3x as long is going to be 0.12s difference. Whether this makes any practical difference is pretty unlikely as most pings are larger than that difference.

Personally I also feel that higher rof weapons are more new player friendly as it helps with tracking/accuracy. But this is also a theory based on my experiences and the assumption that newer players will have an overall lower accuracy while learning the weapons because their shots are more spread apart. For experienced players it mostly comes down to personal preference and/or perceived skill ceilings.

Kindred falls short and so does Charger, so far in my opinion the VS got the best deal with Horizon, just out of the box with no attachments and iron sights, it runs well.

Kindred magazine size to small and ammo boxes to small for such output, why can’t it get a advanced laser sight or suprressor?

Charger, longer reload times with small mags, are you kidding me? No barrel attachement choices.

I don't think we understand each other. Maybe we do.

If both weapons drop down to 30% DPS whether as a continuous value or per reload cycle, the weapon with the lower RoF will have lost a far greater amount of DPS. Your example demonstrates this, so maybe you know what I'm trying to say and I've just confused myself, I don't know.

I think it's fairly commonly accepted that higher RoF weapons are easier to use in general compared to lower RoF weapons.

I think I understand what you're trying to get at and you're right in a sense (see last example) but I also think mixing up TTK and DPS. Just a random example assuming averages:
1000dps & 900dps at 30% accuracy become 300dps and 270 respectively. The higher dps "lost" 700dps and 2nd lost only 630dps. It's not dependent on the rate of fire. That said, a lot of the higher rof weapons in this game tend to have a higher dps.

With worse accuracy the difference in TTK increases. As above, the 1000dps weapon would kill a player in 1s. and 900dps would kill in 1.11s give or take. Now at 30% accuracy.. 300dps kills in 3.33s and 270dps in 3.7s and a TTK difference of 0.11s becomes 0.37s.


This of course changes in practice because you're really doing damage in increments of 200/167/143 ect.. If the higher alpha/lower ROF gun misses the first shot, they do lose out on more because there was no delay for that first shot.
Ie. A 3x hs kill with a 200/500 model and a 4x hs kill with 143/750:
The TTK for both is exactly 0.24s because the first shot is instantaneous. At 33% accuracy the 9 shots and 12 shots have TTKs of 0.96s and 0.88s respectively. Yes the first weapon technically "lost" more DPS because it went from 5000dps in 3 shots to 1250dps in 9 shots while the 2nd weapon went from 4767dps to 1300dps. The first weapon "lost" 283dps more than the 2nd weapon. However the longer the fight/worse the accuracy the more this is mitigated. If you change the above to all bodyshots the first weapon only drops by 28dps more than the second.

Weapon 1vs2 math:
# Shots: 5, 7 / TTKs: 0.48s, 0.48s / DPS: 2083, 2085
# Shots: 15, 21 / TTKs: 1.68s, 1.6s / DPS: 595, 625

Is the horizon really given perfect ADS aim 0,0,0,0? 150 dmg x 600 RPM, how noticable is the pellet spread? This is a gun that needs some serious playtesting to know if it's broken or not but kind of sounds it. Theoretical/non theoretical aside, most average players need to pause between firing 6-10 shots on most guns for the gun to still maintain its accuracy but this doesn't need to. The figures of this gun could only be bad in CQC where it gets outshined in DPS as a midrange gun, it is simply perfect. But maybe in very far circumstances Tanto maybe outshines this considering the pellet spread, I think this would possibly hinder a pro that can three finger tap the head at 70m+. Especially given that the gun has a horizontal recoil pattern on it, which seems outright bad at long range.

The Kindred however doesn't slow down to 550 ROF til ~8 bullets in so it kind of sounds like its pretty on par with like a bandit or something given those stats, however has a slightly better profile otherwise other than the lack of advanced laser sight, still is competitive enough to take on the best of guns in most arsenal. Though this gun doesn't have HVA but that might make this weapon broken if it could. I think this is the deadliest pro gun given that the gun I think maybe starts at 700 and probably sits on 625 ROF assuming 4-5 shots to kill. This is especially deadly in CQC where its harder to miss shots and I think the sheer versatility of having a gun that can perform in the CQC as well as mid range and has a slightly higher velocity than the bandit so it could even outperform in 70m+

The Charger though probably shouldn't exist, I really think the devs need to change the smart feeder attachment into something more useful or atleast give me the choice to have SPA or HVA on the gun in place of this. I don't think barrel attachments really influence my gameplay, I have never found any of them particularly useful, though this is the one class where having suppressors and flash suppressors is arguably important for flanking and it can't even do that.

You can visually judge the spread by doing these simple things:

1) equip unstable ammo, so the pellets will be a little bit bigger
2) put a x4 sight
3) fire and look at the pellets

I did that I was not impressed, to put it mildly :-(

Aiming at center mass one shot goes into the neck and one into the leg... This weapon is like the Tengu.

Carbines are like Non-alcoholic beer.

It might taste like beer, but it doesn't get the job done.

Half of every Faction's Armory already out performs them. meh...

Good try though. o7

I love the 'Kindred'. Bought it straight away and loaded it up with all attachments.
It spins when firing....I'm in heaven. Actually does damage as well.
Now my favorite for the light infantry.

No. It has a noticeable spread because of the pellet mechanic, and then some stiff recoil too. It's a worse version of the Tanto.

Kindred feels like a best-in-class contender. Horizon is a worst-in-class weapon. If you suggest the two-pellet version of the ammo as a fix, why not just use a "one pellet" gun like every other carbine so you can actually aim and have a larger mag size?

The Horizon's gimmick could be great if it had a mechanic where if ANY of the pellets hit, the others disappear and the target takes 143 damage or whatever combo of damage/ROF seems balances out. Call it "quantum superposition ammo" or whatever... it is a particle/wave who's final position is determined by which hits a target first. Very Vanu. Much technology.

Again you dont understand dps.

If you have a reaver and a mosquito fighting each other. They both are on target for 1/2 second inside 200 meters. The reaver does half of 2112 dps. So 1056 damage.

The mosquito if hes on target for 1/2 second will do half of 1875 or 937 damage.

Fire rate doesnt matter except that it might be slightly easier to dodge bullets from a slower firing gun.

Otherwise we use dps to tell if you are on target how much damage you are doing.

DPS is simply a constant, damage per second that your aim is on target. The only variable is accuracy. If both pilots are on target for 33% or 42% or any other percentage than you can multiply that % by the dps to find out how much damage you have done.

If you still dont understand it i cant help you.

Lala bear said;

You can’t have a gun that does more dps, fires for longer on the same mag, but then does LESS dpm(mag). The math doesn’t work here. The 75rd Needler mag at 750rpm empties in 6 seconds, outputs more damage per mag, and the reaver has to reload sooner. Dps here is a game of catch up in the beginning. The reaver will have a higher dps until it starts to reload, then the mosquito will overtake the cumulative dps (total of 11250 vs 10450) until the mustang starts to fire again. This continues until the 3rd reload at which point the mustang overtakes the all cumulative and future dps.

Ok it was pretty late when i was doing my caluclations the other night. My time to dump a mag came out wrong.

The reaver dumps a mag in 5.8 secs and does 12,350 damage.

The mosquito mag dumps in 6.8 secs. 750/60=12.5 85/12.5=6.8 for 12750 damage.

5.8+2.4(reload speed for reaver mustang) is 8.2 secs. The mosquito is 6.8+2.5=9.3.

By 9.3 secs the reaver has done 14565 damage while the mosquito is at 12750.

To dump 2 mags for the mosquito including reload time 6.8+2.5+6.8 is 16.1 secs at which time the mosquito has put out 25,500 damage.

At 16 secs the reaver has dumped 5.8+2.4=8.2+5.8=14 24,700 plus 2 more secs 2111+2111 for a total of 28922.

So the reaver at 16 secs has 1807 potential dps and the mosquito has 1593 potential dps.

The only time the Mosquito has higher potential dps is at 6.5 to 8.2 secs.

Why are you folks talking about ESFs here.

I tried Charger very briefly as LA and it seems kind of decent, but it's gimmick is a bit dull. I think it's RPM could be a bit higher, or alternatively the charged shots could deal 200 damage instead of 167 so that it would have something over the Bandit.