Thoughts on the new Carbines?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Campagne, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Campagne

    I'm curious about how everyone else feels about the newest set of ES carbines. This thread is just about first impressions & opinions, not about anything unrelated.

  2. Campagne

    Once again I rather dislike the MGR-X1, MG-X1, and VE-X naming convention. It's lazy and confusing.

    Furthermore, I'm quite disappointed with the models this time around. Not because I think they're bad, they're not, but because they look extremely close to the SMGs. At least the names are fairly good.

    MGR-C1 Charger

    Silly me, I was actually thinking this time the NC would get something good.

    On paper it actually seems really rather good. A 167/652 is a great damage model. However, this is extremely misleading. The weapon does not actually have 167 damage per shot to any extent that matters. The weapon claims the first few shots from the magazine do more damage. While technically true, the bullets deal 167 damage as the bonus for the first 5 shots and then instantly drop down to 143 damage for the remainder of the magazine.

    Even from a full magazine the shots to kill a standard target from point blank with only bodyshots is 7 shots. A 167 is supposed to kill in 6 shots. The Charger can only do so with bodyshots against infiltrators. With headshots, the first few rounds do will with 3 shots as one would expect, but when down to the end of the magazine it takes 4 headshots to kill a standard target.

    This is quite frankly stupid. For all intents and purposes it's actually just a 143/652 carbine unless the user chains headshots from the very beginning of the magazine and reloads every 5 shots.

    However, it does have excellent accuracy and especially so for an NC weapon. It's basically just a downgrade to the NS-11C with the only caveat being the 24 damage bonus for the first 5 bullets. It has more recoil and less attachments and is way less versatile. It also lacks the discretion of an NS weapon and the bonus damage shots have very distinct and unique tracers.


    The only special attachment is the usual Smart Feeder, except this time worse than ever before: Magazine size is increased by 5 rounds and the reload is increased by 0.3 seconds. This costs 200 certs for the privilege.

    Recoil wise it pulls pretty sharply up and to the right, but I was able to control it quite easily for the most part. This is with a grip.

    Final verdict: Fairly bad. Craptastic, even. Another pointless addition which serves absolutely no point. Buff/change plz.

    Bonus thoughts: The magazine-damage link mechanic is okay enough. But only when the bonus is actually a bonus and not just a mislabeled malice. The Charger should remain a 167/652 with the mechanic changed so that the first 3-5 shots in the magazine have zero damage degradation. This would provide the weapon with the very small but potentially meaningful niche of very long range tap-fire triple headshot kills.

    Not to mention a 167/652 damage model would actually serve a purpose and would be effective on it's own.

    MG-C1 Kindred

    Excellent weapon. Holding down fire lowers the RoF but with 167 damage per shot and a very high initial RoF bursting will only be required once or twice a fight and only against the fastest and strongest enemies. Still if for whatever reason holding the trigger down to the end of the magazine the RoF does drop down to what I would guess is the listed 550 RPM.

    If chain-headshotting a MAX in four bursts it will die in less than 5 seconds. I'm a little concerned with regards to the balance of this one. (Easier said than done, I know, but it's possible and it happens.)

    The Kindred doesn't really get any special attachments either. At most it gets a flash suppressor and soft point ammo.

    It does have a fair degree of horizontal recoil even with a grip. Vertical recoil is as always little to no issue. As it's not meant for range this is to be expected.

    Final verdict: Very good, if a little bland. Could easily be a fun and useful weapon given the right playstyle. Not really anything super special or ground-breaking though, aside from the incredible DPS and rapid TTKs. The RoF-burst mechanic feels like it belongs for to an NSX weapon than anything. I'm just glad it's not on the heavy, though it may still be too powerful as is.

    VE-C Horizon

    Easily thee most unique of the three, as per friggin' usual. It fires three pellets in a perfect straight line. If ADSing the line is vertical and if hipfiring the line is horizontal.

    In terms of damage and TTK it's also fairly standard, a little on the low side. It's effectively a 150/600 carbine if all pellets hit.

    The Horizon, assuming no pellet spread, is one of the most accurate weapons in the entire game. However, in practice this isn't entirely true due to the pellets. However, compared to other pellet/multishot-based weapons, the perfect consistency and predictability of the Horizon makes it very accurate regardless. Not a very long range weapon, but a good short-early-long range one.

    Additionally, the incredible accuracy carries over to a literally pinpoint-accurate initial hipfire.

    Special attachments are as follows:
    • Vented power core -- removes long reload penalty and increases single-angle horizontal recoil.
    • Capsulate ammunition -- Splits the weapon's damage even into 2 pellets instead of 3, reduces pellet spread by 75% when hipfiring and 50% when ADSing, and reduces magazine size by 4 rounds.
    • Unstable ammo: Significantly increases projectile size and decreases headshot damage by 80%.
    • Bonus: Enhanced plasma containment AKA flash suppressor.
    Recoil is fairly standard, not amazing but not a major issue.

    Final verdict: Interesting and versatile. Hard to not hit with at least a pellet for most shots. It's not the most lethal but it's decent enough and isn't super hard to use. Whether hipfiring with UA or landing easy shots at mid-range it will be at the very least competitive. Or better yet treat it like an SMG or Tanto and hipfire-headshot your way to victory.
    • Up x 4

    Horizon with 2 Shot Ammo is ultra nice. 4 Shots less don't bother because you are much more precise and the 2 shots make the same damage as the 3 before and a small CoF like the Tanto (I hope I get the name right)

    I siggest trying it with Forward Grip, 2x Redicule and the 2shot Ability.
  4. LordKrelas

    Why is NC having to reload at the slowest speed, if only the first 5 rounds (1\5th of the magazine) have the damage model?
    It's like cruel & unusual punishment.

    TR has the same damage model, but for 30 rounds: NC's entire magazine + an extra 5 rounds.
    Isn't NC meant to be encouraged to be reloading constantly, in order to actually gain a benefit?

    At 2.9 Seconds, TR' after unloading 30 rounds, NC only is faster by 0.425 of a second... for the shortest reload.
    VS's longest reload, at 2.45 seconds, bests NC's fastest reload, as well.

    Like, TR is nailing a target for 167 for 30 rounds, with an RPM boost constantly.
    NC loses their Carbine's entire perk after 5 rounds, needing the longest reload near equal to a full magazine reload, to even Replace their 5 fired Rounds.
    Like Joy: Constantly reloading to use the Gun's perk, barely faster than someone firing off 30 of the same damage rounds & reloading after running dry.

    It's just depressing.
    Like, joy, my Gun equals the enemy if the first 5 rounds are perfect, and then I take longer to reload than them, or suffer from dealing less damage than they do per bullet... While they also have better RPM at the same time, so they're firing more bullets.
    So I have to make the best of the first 5 rounds I fire, and deal with an inferior magazine afterwards.
    As no way to even selectively choose when to fire my special rounds; So easily wasted.
    Mean while: VS & TR enjoy the special characteristics for an entire 30 rounds. NC gets 5, and the longest waiting period between each 5.
    • Up x 2
  5. Demigan

    So... The NC not only gets it's MAX hammered, the carbine it gets is basically a worse version the TR gets?

    First the stats listed for the NC are the maximum it does, rather than the minimum. This misleads people into thinking it's shots deal more damage as per it's description. The TR stats listed are the minimum and are actually better than listed.

    When firing the NC needs to go into a 2.4 second reload to get it's higher damage profile.
    When firing the TR needs to let go of the trigger for the tiniest moment to up it's ROF to something close to the NC charged version and get that DPS.

    What's next? "let's remove the Vanguard shield and reduce it's damage per shot to that of the Magrider. Also we'll remove it's health adantage!".
    • Up x 3
  6. DarkStarAnubis

    I have toyed with all of three in VR.

    Just like the 2 previous sets of weapons (Battle Rifles and SMGs) I was unable to find good reasons to get them because what already exists is equally good (and in some cases better) and besides, I do not personally like the "gimmick" strategy according to which new weapons must have something fancy and unusual: for that we have already the NS weapons (Naginata, Yumi, Tengu, Daimyo)

    Most likely the best one. However, it is a short range (not immensely precise, slow bullets) weapon coupled with low RPM and high DMG, not the best combination one could dream of in dire straits. Sure, it is good to kill distracted enemies, but almost ANY weapon is good for that. Given its traits, I see no reason to prefer it over Lynx or -God forbid- the Jaguar.

    Meh, like the Canis. I tried at range and did not like it due to the pellet spread (tried with capsulate ammunition as well) despite the "0" Bloom. Conceptually the Horizon reminds me a lot the Tengu: [too] easy to use, will always hit something but without making a lot of damage: low floor and low ceiling as well. Can't understand unstable ammo in a Carbine (it should be a precise weapon, so you want to go for headshots). Can't find a reason to prefer it over the Pulsar C and if I want a weapon with zero CoF there is already the Tanto.

    LIked at the beginning, but found the magazine too small (25 rounds? You got to be kidding! It is okay to have a small magazine in ranged monsters like the AC-X11 or the Reaper DMR, but this weapon is nowhere near their damage model...).. Again, nothing to be excited for: the Razor is better at range, the GD-7F is better in CQC. Why should I get it?

    Sad. Another opportunity missed.
    • Up x 1

    kindred sexy gun/ o like sexy tr
  8. JudgeNu

    I like the charger. It feels like a slightly better Reaper. Almost as if the first two shots of the Charger are like the first shot of the Reaper. Maybe the recoil reset is faster on the charger with burst fire? idk.
  9. Campagne

    Shameless self-bump!

    Never without content, an excerpt from the Stuff I Don't Like Google doc:

    "The GU3/20 MGR-C1 Charger -- Patch Notes

    Another addition in the Doku ES weapon line, the MGR-C1 Charger is the New Conglomerate’s carbine of the Modular Gauss Rifle set. The primary unique trait of the weapon it’s bonus damage dealt per shot for the first five shots of every fresh magazine. While the weapon itself is basically just a flat downgrade to the NS-11C, a greater, more exemplary insult is required to achieve ascension to my little ****list here as it were.

    The issue I take with the Charger is the blatant and intentional lie the weapon’s description and listed stats presents: The weapon is listed as dealing 167 damage per shot within maximum damage range and it is strongly implied the damage bonus is applied on top of this existing damage. This is simply not true. The Charger has a damage per shot of 143 when within ten meters; The listed 167 damage per shot is the damage bonus. By listing the maximum rather than the minimum damage values the developers are strongly implying the weapon is significantly better than it actually is and that it does the listed 167 damage consistently.

    The MG-C1 Kindred, released alongside the Charger, also has a non-static characteristic in the form of a massively increased initial rate of fire decreasing as the weapon fires, resetting back to the initial RoF when the trigger is released. However, unlike the Charger the Kindred has the non-starting minimum RoF listed (at 550RPM), not the maximum. Furthermore, this is not the first instance of a non-static weapon trait. The VE-S Canis much like the Kindred also has a dynamic RoF, starting at 550RPM. Unlike the latter the Canis’s RoF increases as the trigger is held to a maximum of 667RPM, but once again has the minimum RoF value listed and not the maximum.

    The insultingly obvious disregard of accuracy or transparency with regards to the Charger’s listed information is both a first for the game as a whole and entirely tied to a single NC-specific weapon which is easily proven to be false by simply firing the weapon six times into a dummy at the VR. The fact that someone had the gall to openly lie to the player’s face in an attempt to make a weapon seem better than it is in reality is little more than an affront to one’s own intelligence. Even if a player is mislead into buying the carbine there is nothing to stop the poor bastard from shooting ten people and noticing the damage inconsistencies.

    The facade doesn’t even last until a basic familiarity with the weapon can be reached. The damage inconsistency was literally the first thing I noticed after shooting a single target dummy. Seven shots, not six."
  10. Cyvr

  11. Silkensmooth

    The NC did get the gladius. While the TR got the jackal which isnt good. NC should stop acting like victims. It just sounds whiny.
  12. Gustavo M

    I'm pretty sure Kindred is the best weapon in the game.
  13. DarkStarAnubis


    FWIW also the Canis in-game description is misleading. The Canis is described as a 667 RPM weapon with "a firing rate that increases over time", so simple logic would suggest that its fire rate increases above 667 RPM.

    The Wiki page is clear however:
    The Canis starts at 550 RPM (it was 500 when released) and reaches 667 RPM after 2.5 seconds of sustained fire.

    Other than that, I agree with what you said about the Charger description. It is misleading. Whether it is on purpose or not that's another issue.

    I find this lack of clarify disturbing and it is one of the reasons why I stopped investing in weapons. especially the new ones.
  14. Campagne

    Oh! Thanks for the heads up, I'll have to change some stuff around. Have to add the Canis to the list as well now.

    I agree, had I not tested the weapon myself I honestly would have spent the certs on it right away.

    First of all, the Gladius is mediocre at best and the Jackal is mediocre at worst. But even if the Gladius was the most amazingly overpowered weapon in the game it would not justify the addition of yet another bad weapon.

    Secondly, you've recently been complaining about the TR a lot. I don't think you have a leg to stand on here.

    Mossie's default nosegun has the lowest DPS because it's the easiest to use with the highest RoF and largest magazine. The TR aren't hard-done-by because one weapon is different from the other factions'.
  15. Silkensmooth

    I play all 3 empires. I recently got a godsaw. NC heavy guns are better than TR heavy guns. The gauss saw is a total monster.

    I dont complain about TR at all. I play TR most of the time because they have the best infil gun imo the Trap M1.

    I have recently stated that the mossquito is the worst ESF due to the fact that it has the second largest hitbox and the lowest dps nosegun, but thats not a complaint its just a fact. I didnt suggest that they buff the mosquito, simply that they change the hitbox on the scythe slightly.

    EVERYONE who flies a lot knows the scythe is the best plane by a mile. I have nearly 10k kills with the saron laser cannon and 2k with the rotary so i know this first hand.

    The mosquito gun is the easiest to use? All the noseguns are the same in terms of ease of use.

    ROF doesnt matter, what matters is dps and reload speed. Reload speed matters because if you know how to fly, you will be dodging during reloads and the needler has a 2.5 second reload vs 2.0 seconds for the scythe.

    It takes 4.9 secs for a scythe to empty a magazine and it will do 9564 damage.

    It takes 4.8 secs for a mosquito to empty a mag for 9000 damage.

    To reload the scythe and empty the second mag for 19128 damage takes 11.8 secs.

    To reload the mosquito and empty the second mag for 18000 damage takes 12.1 secs.

    To reload the scythe and empty the mag 3 times takes 19 secs for 28692 damage.

    To reload the mosquito and empty the third mag takes 19.4 secs for a total of 27000 damage.

    So the dps after 3 mags for the scythe is 1510 and for the mosquito after 3 mags is putting out 1391 dps.

    Most fights between good pilots require 2 or 3 reloads and as you can see the dps of the scythe gets higher vs the mosquito as time passes .

    I'm too tired to calculate the dps after reloads for the reaver.

    Not complaining here, just stating facts.
  16. Silkensmooth

    So the difference after one mag is 1875 dps for mosquito and 1952 for scythe which is 77 dps difference and after 3 reloads the scythe does 1510 dps vs 1391 for the skeeter for a total difference of 119.
  17. Campagne

    This is an opinion, and not even a relevant one at that. Are you trying to say it's okay for the Gladius/Charger or whatever is bad because you like the SAW?

    You don't complain about TR, except for the fact that you were just complaining about the TR. :p

    Again, the DPS differences are due to the very much existent ease of use differences. The TR's nosegun has the highest RoF and largest magazine which allows for a lesser punishment for missed shots whereas the Reaver's nosegun is the opposite. If a player is flying an ESF and is a terrible shot he will do better with the mossie and is he is an excellent shot he may do better with the Reaver. That's really all there is to it.

    According to someone I don't remember here on the forums, given the various possible angles of engagement the Mossie actually has the smallest frame on average while the Reaver still has the largest, if I can recall correctly. Not every engagement will be directly from the front, though the Mossie isn't exactly at the greatest disadvantage in such engagements anyway.
    • Up x 1
  18. pnkdth

    None of them, in particular, tickles my fancy.

    However, I do very very much appreciate DGB trying out new ways of doing things rather than simply experimenting with damage models and rate of fire. The Kindred is the best of the bunch, the Horizon has a rather interesting take on the Tanto-mechanics but it is just that, a rather cool and unique weapon which is going to shine in certain scenarios. The upside for VS is that they at least have something interesting in a murderously boring and uninspired pool of bland middle of the roadness that is their carbines.

    The Charger was a missed opportunity. The name itself is what I'm thinking about. Give it a reverse charge up mechanic where the more you fire the worse it gets. The more you nurture it the more damage it does and the more AAAAA DAKKA DAKKA you would have a really bad time.

    In other words, it starts up charged and the more you let it charge the more damage the bullets do. The more you let it charge the better the Charger is (so clever, huh... xD ). It is true this is a similar mechanic as the Kindred but it would achieve in two different, one might say, faction defining ways. One through dakka and the other through big hurty bullets.

    So I have mixed feelings, is what I'm saying but from a mostly VS perspective (as of late) I hope the Horizon can stay somewhat useful before the inevitable nerf-herd goes after it. Indeed, I would also love it if we, as a community, could figure out together that when a brand new weapon is being used by lots of people it MIGHT, just maybe kind of sort of, be because it is NEW and not because X or Y faction is a bunch of malicious and spiteful people intent on making things worse for everyone.

    Like with the Gladius. Plenty of users, good performance, but not overpowering. Just a good weapon which people like to use. Imagine that, eh, a weapon that people want to use. Going back to my previous point, it doesn't have to be some massive conspiracy as it why people use it.

    TL;DR: Sort of meh but also nice to see weapons which aren't just copy/pasted between the factions.
  19. Silkensmooth

    You dont understand dps.
  20. Campagne

    You don't understand reality.