This class lacks the basic tools required to perform its advertised role.

no pachins you are just making propaganda of how awesome you are,the fact that you can kill someone with the infiltrator at close quarters,or let's say that you can cause some minor disruption into a base

dont and SHOULD NOT prove the infiltrator class is fine

because right now it has so many problems related to the infiltrating aspect that we dont need answers like yours to solve this issue.

Did you forget the thread title? My experience as an Infiltrator is horrible because my stealth is ineffective at both long-term hiding and crossing distances unseen, the layout of almost every base gives me no choice but to use the front door because I don't have a jetpack, and I'm powerless to stop deployed sunderers from spitting out endless reinforcements, all of whom are individually better equipped to win a fight against me. Your examples of "playing strategically" involve being where conflict not only isn't focused upon you, but simply isn't.

I prefer constructive feedback and not more people jumping on the "This is the worst class" band wagon.

then provide some feedback,the point of this thread is arguing about how infitlrator lacks the tools to do his job,but you are only telling that the class is fine and that the others are doing that badly

if you truly played PS1 like i did,you would know that the infiltrator in his current state it's a shade of his former glory.

Why don't we just scrap the classes and make 1 super class that can do everything. That way we don't have to hear people like you complain about XX class has this and I wannnit.

Work hard at making your current class effective and if the Devs see that this is not so they will make changes. Devs who listen to QQers ruin games. Realize if this was as big of an issue as you persist then the 12k (estimate) people playing the class would be here making a complaint. I can currently count you negative Nancys on 1 hand.

+1 to this thread.

Infiltrator lacks both the means and the targets to... ehh... infiltrate.

Slipping through shields how sundies can do but without everyone in LoS noticing it? Yes please.

I don't know how grapplehooks could be implemented; IMHO 'sticky movement' ala spiderman like Flashes on Turbo and Prowlers can sometimes do, only better. Restrict movement speed and weapon usage to sidearm only while doing so. Would need re-wroked cloak obviously.

Things to do while inside?

Sections in the wall that are destroyable from within by a properly equipped infiltrator that is able to get ~8-10 sec of uninterrupted quality time alone with it (like demos could breach through certain parts of the map in TF); could be closed back again by an Engineer? (There may be even no explosions involved, the walls simply quitely reconfigure themselves into a small gate; Engineer intervention would simply make them 'remember' the correct configuration and close up again).

Hacked generators go haywire and fry anyone on contact until either fixed or explode by themselves after a certain amount of time?

Make elevators\jumppads unusable for the defenders until fixed?

You apparently jumped on the band wagon late. I have offered plenty.

I really like the grapple idea. I also like the idea of our sensor tag being swapped out with a EMP dart. Shoot it at vehicle to disable it for a defined amount of time. (Upgrades would increase that time) Gives your team time to set some C4. This would go in line with the team mentality.

that's just silly imo,the infiltrator should be a squishy and sneaky class that can cause a fair amount of disruption

but right now he is squishy,he is with weaker weapons than the other classes and he guess what he is not sneaky at all,the OP is asking for tools that could allow him to do his job,not to annihilate an entire enemy force

then again what's the point of an infiltrator if he cannot infiltrate?

this should be the main issue that should fixed asap,i can live up with our CQC weapons,(heck the reapeater is such a nice pistol anyway),but for the love of god,give us a decent stealth mechanic.

I've been reading some of these threads. Where I feel Drazen is a little extreme, I think The good Doctor has a pretty good idea on what the class needs. Pachins, I realize that you have taken what you were given and have been doing well enough in your eyes. I can respect and understand that, I really can. Like when Engineers complain that AT mines can't instant gib sunderers and be placed like C4, when they have c4 and utility pouches. I could understand your line of reasoning for that issue "You guys need to just use what resources you have available, At mines are At mines, not c4, go use C4" But...with your view on infiltraitors I have to disagree.

Infiltrators need some form of explosive. The hacking is lack-luster due to, what you keep bringing up, The vehicle console being the most important thing to be hacked. The ability to do that is fairly neat and it is really important. But after that, the class isn't very useful in the invasion setting. I just feel, like the current weapon set-up and skill set that is offered for us to cert in is lacking. The cloak is alright if you are trying to be a spy. I see that as more of what you are playing. A Spy. Which is not the same as an infiltraitor to be honest.

A infiltraitor is a hostile unit used to invade or to go behind enemy lines to cause damage, subterfuge, confusion, and to be a sort of special operations unit. Silenced weapons, hand to hand, quiet, quick, and easy take-downs. You are a one person unit or perhaps a squad, designed to be extremely able to penetrate a base or fortification and eliminate small amounts of hostiles in a way that is most beneficial. I agree, people un-cloaking in front of a heavy should die. But the cloak should allow us to flank and strike with deadly, short burst, weapons before we either flee from a mistake we made, are killed, or have eliminated the target and are moving onward. (The Pistol and knife would work if we all got something like the Rebel that the NC have with it's high damage, low ammo and mag count, but we don't have those options on all factions.) I don't think hacking for the paltry amount of points or trying to sneak around hitting q on things, providing intel, is what fits the infiltraitor. That's more of a spy thing.

Right now, Pachins, I see you post about how your intel you can provide is great for in game organized raids, attacks, defense. I am glad to hear it because it really does shine that you are a good player. But, I think, what really hurts your debate that it is "fine" or "l2p" is that the game does not reward you enough for providing intel. It does not reward you for sneaking around in a base with a plethora of hackable objectives that aid others. It does not reward you for being close. It does not reward you for the time you sneak around. I'm not saying you haven't gotten certs and kills. What I'm saying is compared to the other classes, the cert gain is very low, the k/d is very low, the points gained is very low. Whatever is done to help the class needs to be ways to fix these issues because right now a medic just healing has a far better potential to get certs then an infiltraitor.

Also...You and the Dr shouldn't be flaming each other, as funny as it is to read. You should literally just work together openly and aknowledge that both of you have points that are correct. It sounds like Pachins has a good grasp on movement and the whole "Invading with intent." And Dr. has a good idea what needs to be implemented to make it "Hostile intent." I think you two could team up and really make a good push, in a very civilized manner, to advance this class and make it really shine...without all the ******.

That's my two cents.


( This got posted while I was posting. Perfect example. )

"I really like the grapple idea. I also like the idea of our sensor tag being swapped out with a EMP dart. Shoot it at vehicle to disable it for a defined amount of time. (Upgrades would increase that time) Gives your team time to set some C4. This would go in line with the team mentality."

I can agree with these things. But I still think infiltraitor needs C4. Also, I think the emp dart should be able to be destroyed off the vehicle with gun fire like a squad beacon. It gives the driver or riders a chance to hop out and try to save their vehicle.

The way I see it, having mediocre CQC options (the automatic scout rifle is basically carbine with modest stats) isn't so bad. This is not what's holding Infiltrators back. With a good cloak and maybe better sensor dart / decoy grenades we could get the job done anyway (and with excellent CQC like a shotgun we would be overpowered). The problem is there is mostly nothing worthwhile doing. The highest priority target in most base defenses and base assaults is a sunderer or two and we can't do anything about it.

We need:
- More hackable objects in bases (that cannot be destroyed so that only Infiltrators can deal with them). This means bases need to be evolve into more complex structures with various systems. Examples of new hackables could be sensor towers, automatic defense systems, various force field that give defenders a modest advantage.
- A better cloak that lets us bypass guarded chokepoints.
- Some way to tempriarily disable or destroy vehicles. The only problem with C4 is how it could potentially be overpowered when combined with the cloak (then again, jetpack + C4 is also a very strong combo)
- A cheap or default infiltration weapon, perhaps a SMG. 1000 certs shouldn't be the entry ticket into being a proper infiltrator. In regards to this, the current situation is comparable to HAs starting without a rocket launcher.

@Korazell Good post. Are you sure we should stop because I really wanted to bring in Godzilla. I can agree that the infil. does not feel complete and some aspects of their design are fine. I can not agree that they are broken though. I know of no large scale game of this caliber that has gone live without some balance or unfinished aspects of the game. I applaud the developers for what has been given so far and look forward to any new changes in a timely manner.

Your side of the argument has even less representation on these forums. I can only think of two people, yourself included, who oppose the ideas presented in threads like these. I don't even know what your problem is - you agree with the idea of a grappling hook, yet refuse to admit that our current stealth mechanic is inferior to the LA's jetpack even in locations like tech plants where our only entrance to the protected areas is literally through the front lines on both sides of a conflict. When I bring up C4, you shake your head at that too because I'm suggesting our class be capable of sabotaging defenses that weren't set up hours before the conflict reached that area. I gave you a chance way back on page 3 to explain what you thought this class was lacking and you completely ignored it, yet now you say the Infiltrator isn't complete.

I love almost every idea presented here. I've seen solutions to our lackluster stealth, our unrewarding and limited options upon a successful infiltration, and our inability to recover from even minor mistakes (though I much prefer the ones which don't involve putting a shotgun in our hands - I'd rather the knife just get buffed). Like it or not, what Drazen said about people quitting over the state of this class is true. They may not quit the game as a whole, but they sure as hell will stop playing Infiltrator when they realize there's nothing they can do to play it in a way that is both satisfying and rewarding. Nobody honestly thinks that we should become a front line class like the LA or HA - those people are too busy playing LA and HA to pay any attention to us - but feeling totally powerless to influence a battle isn't something that anyone wants, and not everybody is as eager as you are to visit undefended enemy bases just to hack terminals and wait for the action to arrive.

We can do OK right now, but we do nothing better then any other class. I have faith that the developers are going to make some changes

Dr. Euthanasia. Hey, seriously, Let's just drop it, alright? S.O.E Moderators frown on these sort of personal petty sqaubbles. You disagree with each other, I can see, but I also see things you seem of the like mind of, and then, I see what you guys do just to try and piss each other off. It's not helping the cause, it's not helping bring light to the issue.

I'm not siding with either of you. I'm siding with the topic. Grappling hook sounds amazing. That would solve our problem against the LA of gaining height. C4, I feel, needs to be in the class because the potential to set traps, disable vehicles, and strike those stealth blows is what this class is all about. The infiltrator needs to punish those zerg rushes where they leave an undefended sundy out in the open. A cloaked duo of agents really need to high five, slap three c4 on that thing, and blow it up. Done. Armor makes far too much of a difference in this game to look at one of the classes, any of them, and not give them something to deal with it.

I really like the thought of an EMP dart. ESF rocket podding straffing? Hit it with a dart, disables the weapons and makes it crash/land, or, just pins it for a rocket. Shoot a sunderer and have it disable the spawn option while giving the driver a flashing red warning "Malfunction!" so they can hop out, shoot the beacon, and kill the infiltrator if they can. This sounds //fantastic.//

Pachins, what sort of objectives would you like to be available for you to go and interact with in bases? There is not a whole lot offered, let's face it. If you count the things in a base that can be destroyed for profit (Turrets, generators, ectra) what else would you like? Maybe to have an option to hijack the turrets and have them fire on their own at a 25% rate until asn engineer fixes the hacked unit. Maybe you want to delay their spawns in their outer spawn buildings. Maybe those tunnels that they have under the fences on Esamir, maybe they can be shielded, and an infiltrator has to go and hijack the shield panel to let in some back-door combatants. Please, this seems like your expertise, let's brainstorm.

Dr. Euthansia, you are very concerned about the weapons and their current state. I am too, really! I think the Nyx and the variants, as well as the combat rifles for engineers and heavies, are very lack-luster and much harder to kill with! The semi-auto weaponary suffers far too much from flinching when shot, the ADS cone, and fire rate. The damage is very inefficient when compared to automatic weaponary in the game. For infiltrator, do you think that the Artemis should be buffed and the Nyx, and the varients, or do you feel like we should have an smg option? Or, perhaps, a cross-faction pistol that is built for infiltrators? New melee would be nice, and I really would like to get away from shotguns and the weapons like them. The flavor is quiet ambush, highly lethal, tactical, what do you feel we need? I really like the sound of a silenced SMG to be completely honest...but some people want katanas....

Everyone else, please feel free to join in!

I'll start by thanking you for trying to promote constructive discussion, just so we can get that out of the way. You have my gratitude.

To actually answer your question, however, I don't think the issue lies directly with our CQC weapons. Yes, they are inferior to basically everything that every other class has available, but that disadvantage should be offset by the fact that, ideally, we should always be shooting people in the back rather than the front. From what I hear of the Artemis, the low magazine size is crippling because you'll often be forced to reload before your target is dead, thus negating your advantage and leaving you dead yourself, but the biggest problem I see lies in getting that advantage in the first place. The layouts of most bases work against any attempts at flanking, and our stealth simply isn't effective in a close-range situation. That's why I really want two forms of a perfect, 100% invisible stealth upgrade to get us where we want to go without half the enemy base knowing about it. The first is simply Stalker Camouflage as outlined in the beta - it's perfect for hiding and causing problems, and by denying you your primary weapon, it puts you at a huge risk even when attacking people from behind. The second is a stealth which takes significantly longer to fade in and out, lasts less than the current 12 seconds, and isn't influenced by your movement state. If done right, it should let Infiltrators get into excellent flanking positions even through the enemy front line, but they'll be especially vulnerable when it ends, which I'm hoping will be enough of a deterrent to stop people from using it to ambush people from the front like they did with the old shotgun. Naturally, it can keep the deafening de-cloak noise.

I can't help but agree with your opinion on semi-automatic guns as a whole, but I've seen this same trend in so many games that it's just become predictable and easy to overlook. In this case, yes, the aim disruption when you get shot while scoped is absolutely crippling, which means that they need to have some of the best unscoped accuracy in the game just to keep up (and they don't), and generally more damage than they currently do. Moreover, they need this damage to be offset with lower firing rates, because it's pointless to use a semi-automatic if you aren't planning to pace your shots and think about where each one is going. The VS Beamer is such an awful gun because of how much its firing rate holds it back, although the least SOE could do is provide the same sidearm options for every faction so that the TR aren't dominating quite so hard with their repeaters. I'd personally use the Rebel if its ironsight wasn't a grey lego brick, but there are no customization options for those and I'm a Vanu anyways. Maybe one day something even slower and more powerful than the Manticore will show up, but I'm not holding my breath.

Pretty much, the semi-auto scout rifles should be our mid-long range hands-on weapons, the full-auto ones should be our mid-close range ones (and yeah, some more mag capacity would be nice), and we could probably stand to have an SMG primary and enough upgrades to our knives to at least let us two-shot a heavy assault with the things. The pistols, we just need to adjust the shots-to-kill number versus the firing rate and leave them generally more lethal (and more balanced against each other) than they are right now. Other than that, we absolutely need C4 or a comparable anti-vehicle tool and something needs to be done about our stealth to the point where people can seriously claim that it makes our otherwise underwhelming weapons dangerous. That last part is very important, too - if stealth isn't the reason we're winning confrontations with other players, it should be a matter of skill or else something deserves to be nerfed.

I have been mainly playing the Infiltrator role and i must say it is quite boring. Find a good hiding spot, aim up headshots and watch the k/d rise... rinse and repeat. The cloak is next to useless and on high graphic settings it is extremely easy to see. The thing about cloak that irritates me the most is having to manually turn it off before firing. It would be amazing to have it deactivate as you fire. It is also worth noting the cloak is loud as hell and gives away your position quite often.

On to the pistol. It is inaccurate, has a lot of recoil, low clip size and is semi automatic. I would much prefer a hard hitting single shot pistol. I can't count the number of times i would snipe someone in the back then run up to them with the pistol and still fail at killing them. The recon tool is a wasted utility slot in my opinion because when you shoot it at medium / far distances it fails to work properly. It also has a small pulse range and life span. Not sure why anyone would invest cert points into this.

All the cert unlocks for the sniper rifle are completely useless. You don't need a scope because of the terrible infantry draw distance. Forgrip serves no purpose and a suppressor will just weaken your shots. Heck the only cert i invest points into is ammo belt, nothing else seems appealing... that seems like a huge design flaw. When i cert into Heavy or Mosquito there are so many important and valuable choices.

What does the infiltrator need to be more appealing? A good secondary weapon. Certs that are actually useful by improving cloak visibility and sound. Why is there no certs that improve steady aim duration? The ability to break cloak when shooting. A better knife for backstabbing people. The choice between proximity mines or c4. A shorter drop pod cooldown so we can actually infiltrate more often. All in all the infiltrator is boring... most the certs are useless and not very imaginative. I will continue to play it, but i hope there is actually some interesting changes in the mix.

Not two minutes and someone else has already brought up the pistol thing. I'm so glad I'm not the only person who hates the ones we currently have. Just go down the path of the bolt-action rifle and give me one that fires half as fast, has a much higher projectile speed, way more damage within its effective range, and enough accuracy to hit someone from the kind of ranges I'd have to scope in at currently. Right now, scoping with a semi-auto is something you only do if you aren't being shot, and I doubt that's ever going to change, but that doesn't mean I have to give up on using them altogether.

Dr, Euthenasia said "Pretty much, the semi-auto scout rifles should be our mid-long range hands-on weapons, the full-auto ones should be our mid-close range ones (and yeah, some more mag capacity would be nice), and we could probably stand to have an SMG primary and enough upgrades to our knives to at least let us two-shot a heavy assault with the things."

I will state this again for the billionth time and I hope you guys are listening, every aspect of the Artemis must be improved, priority being it's damage, secondary concern is clip size -go from 20 to 30, and let us hold 150 shots instead of 100.

In order for the Nyx to be considered for mid-long range its terrible kick must be corrected.

Knives are a non- issue in my opinion. The two things I have listed above would instantly make infils a more viable class, and we would be seeing a lot more of them instead of a field full of HA's which is what we have now.

You all must realize that a more powerful (damage wise) cqc primary gun is what is needed to save the class, not shotguns mind you, fixing the artemis back to its un-nerfed version would work.


p.s. the devs should hook us up with some sweet smgs, and they better not be gimped trash like the artemis or nyx

and yeah the vanu pistol is complete garbage,,,TR GETS A REPEATER, that thing is so sweeet, and NC gets the MAG shot which kills in 3 hits

Thank you. With that out of the way~

Ah, maybe I was mixing up comments. Forgive me.

I personally feel that the weapons are a little lacking, but, that could also be because of how stealth works. I bought the artemis and have been using it, and I have only had success when I have caught a target off guard. Otherwise, the clip size really kills the lethality. I think the best I have done, and I'm only okay, is I found a heavy, kneeled down, aimed, and plugged about ten rounds into his face...his shield went up after three and he whipped around. The rest of my clip was spraw and pray and he ended up living with about three bars. I was so mad. Those last five bullets would have made the difference, in that situation, and I feel any other.

But, if the stealth was different, I think that problem would get less. Stalker cloak was what I was trying to get in Beta, which, I was frusterated it was locked. I think for the style of class if we got C4, Emp darts, grappling hooks, or other tools, we wouldn't need a primary. I think the ideas behind a powerful hand-cannon style gun that punishes you for missing, but rewards for those well placed shots, would be fantastic for the Stalker cloak style play. The ability to knife and shoot would be needed I feel for ammo management.

For the longer duration stealth, with the increased "cloak" activate time I don't think it is as important....I think something else needs to be done to off-set it slightly, such as taking perhaps more damage when perfectly stealthed. I know it sounds bad, but, that's only my opinion. Perfect stealth and a primary is a very powerful thing potentially.

I think if the Nyx was buffed in the ways you and I addressed, it would be far better and see much more play in that style of play. It would work as a spy rifle with a silencer, placing careful shots, sneaking around, where as the stalker cloak would be the in your face assassin. I think it would be a good deviation from each other.


As Scuzzle has said, the certs we have seem very boring...I'd honestly almost rather then a grapple have a sort of enhanced jump we can charge and use instead of a grapple hook. But even more so, I'd really like to push these EMP darts as a non-lethal but team-work oriented answer to the armor zerg. It would really make the difference I feel.