The Ultimate Combined Arms Thread (Tanks vs Infantry)

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by EliteEskimo, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. Ender

    I'd be totally fine with that. Tanks should dominate the open ground. 1 or 2 should still be destroyed by an organized squad with certed AV, but a tank column should steamroll them or make them re-think their strategy. Err wait, AV turrets aside, my AP lightning wrecks infantry as long as I stay positioned correctly. The problem for the "tanks should dominate open ground" comes when that single person in their tank thinks they should be able to level squads of infantry EZPZ NO Problemo here. I think tanks do need a bit of an HP buff though, they're pretty thin as it stands.

    The HE thing was just an example, just because you don't do it doesn't mean others wouldn't...because if you can spam at a location infantry fight for there will ALWAYS be someone taking advantage of that. Locking down a base with HE in regards to you wasn't an argument, it was an over-exaggeration of what will almost definitely happen if tanks have access to infantry fights going on in a base. You have 96 AP kills total..... almost all are HEAT rounds which still could lock down an infantry point with relative ease.

    Absolutely infantry can participate in everything, EVERYONE is infantry man. NO ONE is excluded from taking part in an infantry battle. You can exclude yourself sure, but game design doesn't do that. Game design DOES and SHOULD exclude tanks from taking part in infantry only fights. Tanks are force multipliers, force multipliers allow less people to combat more people because of their nature. Having something like a tank shelling base facility captures points would be ridiculous. So now infantry never get to have infantry only fights? Some people dislike tanks, they don't like getting blasted by a round they never saw coming. There weren't nearly enough infantry only fights in this game because things like tanks and rocket pods were too readily available to spam the living hell out of any good fight.

    If rampage gets out of their tanks after 5 minutes you've already accumulated another tick worth of resources and can most likely pull another one should you need to. If Rampage is as good as you make them out to be, and your air gives you cover, then they shouldn't be dying so fast that resources ever become an issue. If they do, go find a hex that yields mechanized resources and kill a couple things. Yes, those 450 resources are gone... but aren't they gone anyways? You don't get them back if you stay in your tank either, whats the point of arguing they're gone if you get out? The end result is the same.

    This game is primarily a first person shooter. It is combined arms warfare, but its labeled MMOFPS. The people wanting to shoot other people...the same ones that don't want to get spammed endlessly by vehicles, want more of these kinds of fights. They are the primary players in this game, they have not had a continent that allows this type of fight to occur frequently in multiple scenarios. You say tank roles are being minimized (I do agree they need more things to do, just not the influencing capture points in any way), but then say that you never have to get out on Indar and Amerish while saying Esamir used to be a tankers dream. So 2/4 continents you never have to get out of your force multiplier save biolabs and this isn't enough?

    The idea that tanks should be able to shoot at the infantry fight that will determine whether the base caps or not is absolutely ridiculous. It will never happen because it would kill off the players that are being drawn to this game the most. You also mentioned that Rampage is the only task force that occasionally has nothing to do while a point flips. What does your air task force do at tech plant flips then that the tanks can't? If rampage is so hindered because you're too stubborn to get out of your damn tank every once in awhile then maybe it's time your outfit comes up with new ways for you to be useful while waiting for your infantry to do their primary job. Go be a pocket Engi, go be a pocket medic, you don't even have to pull out your gun if you don't want to. Go prep the next base, go lay a mass mine field on a soon to be contested road, go do something. The game doesn't force you to sit in your tank while the point flips, giving tanks a role in the infantry capture of a control point would cause a rage you haven't seen before on these forums to date.

    Eskimo, get out of your tank dude!
    • Up x 2
  2. Ender

    False, did BWC never watch BCPs stream? Did you see how they took skydock? An organized air force shouldn't have a problem with this. Timing and Decoy vehicles all with flares. Decoy gals fly in, libs/pods with thermal follow it up. Once you kill the critical mass the cleanup is not difficult with 3+ libs.
  3. theholeyone

    The big problem there is not wiping them out, but keeping them that way. Squad deploying on corpses is very OP, and many AV nests have risen from the dead that way.
    • Up x 2
  4. Aesir

    One thing that would kill two birds in one stone would be reducing Infantry based AV Range down to Infantry Render Distance and rebalance the AV Weapons accordingly. Like making the AV Mana Turret lose tracking after that range, make locking on quicker on some Launchers to adjust for the closer range and so on.

    Performance of the client has been going down ever since they messed around with extending Render Distance of Infantry.To fix the issue that Tanks could not fight back at things they could not see.

    Setting a feasible Render Distance for Infantry(300m? ), than balance the entire Infantry/Vehicle gameplay around said range would increase Performance, making sure more people can play PlanetSide2, but also address most of the issues they try to fix right now.

    It would be a good step into the right direction. Their current plan of "fixing", meaning extending Infantry Render distance so far has heavily clashed with their other goal to get the game running on as many systems as possible.

    Also it would be way fairer, if Vehicles can't see/hurt Infantry because they don't render than Infantry should have no tools at their hands to engage Vehicles at those ranges.
    • Up x 1
  5. EliteEskimo

    1. The current state of HE makes it a really bad choice to pull on Mattherson where the counter attacks are precise and deadly, and why you would even pull HE with Harassers the way they are? Pulling HE would be an insanely bad decision for the vast majority of cases. I can even remember the last time I met an HE Tank in the open field, and I'm in a tank almost all the time.

    2. "No one is excluded in an infantry battle" False, if you pulled a tank and you have maybe 20-50 vehicle resources coming in per tick you cannot simply abandon your tank because when the battle is over you still got awhile to wait. Often times longer to wait then if you just had stayed in the tank and waited for the infantry to flip the base. There are also not always vehicle resource bases to fight at either which is a second assumption you just automatically assume is an option for a tanker to do. Not that I'd expect DA to understand since Rampage almost never gets to fight you guys in tanks at all. Let us see your MLG skills behind MBT armor once in a while.

    Considering what a high BR you are Ender don't try to pull these "get out of your tank arguments" and expect me to go "oh okay Ender, you're right" just because I have respect you as a player and I have high respect for DA. You are making too many assumptions and assume ideal situations are always present which they always are not. This game is becoming way to infantry focused when infantry can out range tanks, do no require tanks to escort them between bases because they can run to them without even a Sunderer, do not require AP tanks to take out other AI tanks or in other words "lol na I'll just get C4" or "Na I'll pull my AV Turret and kill you from 500M+ away where I'm a single pixel". Infantry are becoming an all around powerhouse that at this moment doesn't have much need for tanks unless the drivers behind them are so dang good they actually count for something.

    3. Infantry have always had a continent with multiple bases that takes couldn't effectively be entered by or even shelled by tanks, it has lots of cover and elevation to hide and get the edge against tanks, and it's called Amerish and it still exists. I'll admit that a lot of the bases on Esamir had badly crafted spawns, but that's no reason to seal off the whole thing and make mini bio labs to take tanks out of the picture. Last time I checked Pilots have flying force multipliers and infantry have Maxes both of which won't be restricted on the majority of bases for 4/4 of the continents, so why the tank hate considering our very limited roles and all the nerfs that already came our way? Infantry have always had force multipliers that are never restricted by a base, it's called the Max and even 2 working together can be quite the detriment to a tanker and can be revived unlike a tank.

    4. Ender could you quote me where I said that tanks at an infantry fight would be an end be all decision in a battle, or in other words "you bring tanks or else you lose"? Not once did I ever speak as though I wanted this, I thought tanks should bring an advantage if the tank could be kept alive yes, but I never suggested that anyone would be able to be useful in tank under these courtyard situations. If you saw what I posted you would see I wanted tanks to be able to enter bases under the condition that infantry had more cover and protected spawns so farming could not occur, each kill would have to be sought after as a tanker all while being under intense threat of being gibbed by tank mines, decimators, and C4.

    5. What does task force dragon do when they eliminated the air in the area? Well it doesn't take much imagination to know that they are great pilots who are also accurate with their nose guns and can pick off infantry and the ones that have rocketpods can shoot at infantry and tanks within bases. Why would BWC's air force be restricted by walls on the ground or the design of tech plants in the first place when they can fly? Furthermore it's not hard for them to go a a hex or so away, run back if it's too hairy, and/or then be back in seconds if we need them so that's all relative. Going to prep the next base unsupported by the rest of the outfit is suicide if there is any significant force waiting for us, and also makes a major assumption that NC/VS will not already be prepping or have had that next base prepped either. Surely if NNG, DA, GOTR, or AT know they are going to lose a base don't just go "herp derp well we best consider the next base lost too" B.S! because we both know the outfits typically do their best to prepare a defense similar to Helms Deep if they are able.:eek:

    6. Once again it has nothing to deal with Rampage being to stubborn to get out of our tanks, it has to do with the tanks disappearing, and not always have 100+ resources coming in to get our tanks back up when we need the. Why is DA so stubborn that they never try to engage rampage with tanks and would rather fight with infantry? Couldn't you all could pile into a several Magriders and attempt to engage us once in awhile to let us know that DA can be MLG with infantry, air, and armor?

    7. Lastly Ender I've never stated I wanted tanks to capture points, only be able to role up to the building or facility that holds it and help keep enemy infantry from entering. However restricting the roles of a vehicle with already restricted roles is wrong. You're more or less saying " I do agree that tanks need more roles, but I have basically nothing to offer you as a compromise. Just wait a few months for SOE to make a resource change and see if something MIGHT Change. In the meantime though get out of your tank and play my playstyle which I already enjoy and have to give up nothing to enjoy currently in game." You're better than that Ender...
    • Up x 3
  6. EliteEskimo

    Gee I could've saved you the trouble, but I'm flattered you went through the effort of trying to call me a baddie. I've said this to numerous people numerous times but I play with 15-25 FPS on low settings which is understandably not competitive in a game like Planetside 2 where infantry TTK is short and your opponents have 30-50 FPS. I'm willing but not sadly not able. I'm a decent player in CSS and a decent sniper in TF2, but that's where I get 100+ FPS. In games like Battlefield 2142 I was great at tanks and decent at infantry but that was with 40-60 FPS. My infantry skills aren't utilized to their potential with such low FPS. That being said you can back off my Max skills because I regularly get 20-40 kill streaks in my Max, and that's without reviving and without an outfit before I joined BWC.

    I do love infantry combat and I love tank combat, but since I can't utilize my infantry skills in PS2 I chose to specialize in my tanking skills and have become one of the best tankers on Mattherson regularly getting between 40-80 kill streaks everytime I step in a tank with AP/HEAT and have been recently getting quite good with AP. Why don't you get DA together and put your money where your mouth is and try to take on Rampage on Friday at Prime Time when we're at full force. And you can't claim you can't tell who's who because most of us have dry brush camo on. :cool:
    • Up x 1
  7. Jachim

    You keep bringing up these fabled "tank mines", yet I never see them in action! Guess why? Mineguard.

    Sure, if you let me cert into C4-guard, I'd absolutely do that but really it shouldn't be nessessary. You keep trying to distract people saying oh, no it's actually a problem with drop pods, or a problem with this or that but no. It's a problem with any class being able to instagib a tank. That is the problem. They should not be able to do that ever. EVER. If they can, then something is broken because it's catering to the lowest common denominator AKA the random solo player who doesn't give two ***** about anything but his own score and cathartic 'OOOOOOO I GOT YOU GOOD ROFLMAOCOPTER'
  8. Thrustin

    Almost nobody runs mine guards anymore. It's why we constantly blow up sundies and tanks to pieces with engies via drop pods or harasser runs.

    Again, you are too fixated with C4, stating the reason its not similar to mines is because you can cert into mine guard, but then saying that shouldn't be necessary. Try to see it once from the perspective of a C4 user. Would you ever use C4 with its slow throw time, high resource cost if it cannot even destroy something with two pieces?

    Stop constantly bringing up the "random-solo-player" argument. I've told you enough times its a moot point, as long as I can drive MBTs as a solo player, or any vehicle capable of destroying your cute tank for that matter. So ESF's, Libs, MBTs, Lightnings. Oh and don't forget belly flopping your vehicle with a solo gal. That's always a fun thing to see.

    Just a side note, you're loosing credibility with all your rage induced posts, try to keep that on a minimum.
    • Up x 2
  9. Ender

    1. Again it was an example, any rounds can be spammed at infantry with great effect. Moot point.

    2. You can't use excluding yourself from the battle as an excuse because you don't want to get out in fear it might get destroyed (almost definitely would :p )... Well, you can, but it's more that you don't want to get out than you can't, and are excluded from the battle. Your tank is excluded, not you. Lecture me on resources all you want, it still doesn't change the fact the choice is yours to get out and join in, or stay in and be left out.

    3. A single MAX is nowhere near the potential multiplier of a tank. Air also has to fear a single lock-on user, single maxes, and single tank rounds. Flares or die. I'd say about 1/2 Amerish bases effectively reduce a tank shelling at free will (So 1/3 before Esamir changes). Infantry is infantry, the primary unit in this game. Restricting them would be... I'm not even sure. On the MAX revive thing.. we'll see how long that remains a gameplay mechanic, but nonetheless it takes two for them to even be considered a detriment to a single tank.

    4. Eskimo, can you quote me (tongue twister imbound) where I said, that you said that? "I thought tanks should bring an advantage if the tank could be kept alive yes, but I never suggested that anyone would be able to be useful in tank under these courtyard situations." Contradictory? Maybe I read your initial posts wrong. I got the feeling you wanted infantry forced to be exposed at all times before reaching A. For some reason I don't see a super obscured courtyard as much different than a walled off base. The walls probably save the tank if courtyards were like that. Are you basically just saying you want your tank to be shot at more? Are you saying you want your tank shot at more?

    5. Aircraft can shoot at infantry fighting for A in a tech/amp? If they're shooting at infantry and tanks at these bases.... then why are you not shooting at these tanks and infantry too? If they can pod tanks, can you not shoot those tanks? I thought your whole point was to be relevant in these battlesinfantry battles. If mossies are flying away to another hex i'm not so sure they're relevant to that point either.

    I didn't say, your only option is to go prep the next base. The idea was you don't have to wait around if you don't want to. DA generally fights to the bitter end at each hex. We only count on the time it takes for outfits to move from hex to hex to set up any kind of defense (which is quite a bit of time since they're generally slow :rolleyes:). Our strength is mobility. I'm not sure if the other outfits sit en masse for minutes waiting, we don't. I guess you also can't really "prep" a base in your tank as it generally requires hacking or laying mines of some sort.

    6. Take turns with a few players to guard your tank column while the rest move inside? If they're consistently getting blown up you probably have stuff to shoot. Why would DA(64), pull big slow targets against BWC(669) who uses the same +air? We may be stubborn, but we aren't stupid. We prefer infantry because squad play can really shine in infantry only environments. Great communication can fight back hordes and that's a thrill. Mostly because tanks are slow, and slow is boring to us. Slow will also play no major part in any competitive play that may arise.

    7. I never implied you said that either. I only implied that tanks playing any sort of real relevancy in the infantry fight for a bases capture point would be catastrophic. While it's true I really don't have an answer for what plagues you other than get creative (lame to say that but there it is); tanks playing a part in infantry capture points would enrage far far more people (I'm fairly positive on this) more often than the amount of "boredom" currently inflicted on dedicated tankers.

    Also, I didn't say, play my playstyle nor did I come anywhere close to implying it. Get out of your tank /= play like me. There are so many different things you can do in this game that the logical leap from "do something else for a little bit" and ending with "play like me" seems pretty odd. I'm no better than anyone here, but I dislike like talks that ask for infantry fights to be compromised because tanks occasionally don't have things to shoot at but can't be bothered to get out. Tanks can play outside just fine. If you want more things for tanks to do it absolutely cannot come at the cost of potential decent infantry fights. Just because you don't spam doesn't put any kind of restriction on any player BR1+, and lets be honest here. Most people would take advantage of any situation that allows them to rack up infantry kills to the point of exploitation. We all do it and sometimes we aren't even aware of it.

    No, to any change allowing tanks to infringe upon the few good infantry fights that do occur. I don't hate tanks, I even enjoy them. This is the wrong kind of change to alleviate your situation though. Call my opinion un-merited because i'm not a main tanker, but i'm not a main anything. I play each position this game offers as equally as possible. Look at my infantry weapons used, vehicle weapons used, aircraft used, classes played - I do it all (I even play the other factions!), and I think that affords me a decent view of how many of these gameplay mechanics
  10. EliteEskimo

    2. Yes you can completely use that reason Ender, because if you're part of the armor task force then participating in a battle and leaving our tanks out to burn is indeed a valid concern if we don't have resources coming in to replace those tanks when the base flips. It's not that hard to understand that tanker+ no tank = no armor division of BWC. Thus if the tank is excluded so is the tanker since the tanker can't very well leave his tank unprotected. Another way this could be remedied is by allowing tanks that are on full health to be despawned to get resources back. I'd personally like that idea as another option ontop of the other ones I had.

    3. Two Comet Maxes working together is a significant deterrent to tank and with the Flak Armor Buff that will likely be coming this way soon this will be even bigger of a problem. I fight Comet Maxes all the time and if you don't take them out right away even one will make you regret it. Secondly a medic and a engineer roaming around can make that max come back up after death and the tank has moved on . An Engineer+ MAX will outlast a single tank in the long run if the Max has cover at its disposal . I never ever said I wanted to restrict infantry Ender, this is all about unrestricting tanks from being very restricted to being more team oriented on the battlefield. I don't see Max's having their revive mechanic removed because that's part of why their resource was increased to compensate that you can revive them.

    4. Sure Ender I'd be happy to quote you:D
    I never said that tanks should be the end all be all in fight or that the victory would be determined by the tanks. Also how is it a contradiction that if you can keep a tank alive at an infantry courtyard fight it would be an advantage to allied infantry but to do so and keep your tank alive in a courtyard situation would be hard enough to make short work of zerg tankers. You would need to be constantly mobile and have great situational awareness and support or else you would be destroyed. Similar to how a 2/3 Liberator Team can be effectively in a medium to large large battle, a 2/2 experienced tanker team could also be effective in a courtyard as opposed to 1/2 derp zerg tanks which will be quickly flanked, destroyed, and will likely TK other zerg tankers as they try to flee and then their debris flips onto other allied tanks. :rolleyes: Furthermore a tank couldn't completely determine the fight if the points could not be fired at directly and one would actually have to get out of the tank to capture the point. Thus infantry and tanks would be needed to work together and vehicles couldn't just be used by themselves.

    5. I mispoke when I said ESF's can fire on tanks within the enclosed walls, I meant just fire at infantry as in they can fire down on infantry behind the walls when tanks cannot. I brought up that ESF's can quickly go to another base and if it's to bad they can afterburn away without losing their fighters. If tanks find themselves in a hairy situation and outnumbered by themselves without backup they will likely be chased down and destroyed by enemy air before they can make it back to allied lines. That comment was merely part of a response to your suggestion that tanks go prep another base by themselves being a bad idea.

    6. How does one manage to guard a tank column from LA's that could make short work of them unguarded or if a lone engineer decideds to deploy far away to start picking them off with an AV turret ? By the time the tanks came back out upon the start of their tanks being attacked many would be lost. It would also be extremely boring to try to defend an entire column while the rest of the battle is happening on the inside.

    Why not just allow tanks to always have a role, either through guarding substations that connect to the main base (like in bio labs on Indar or Amerish) or by being able to shell or go into the base to fight. My idea sounds like a way more exciting idea and one way less prone to boredom and repetitiveness. Don't play dumb Ender you almost never see BWC pull more than 1 to 2 platoon Max during an OP and Rampage typically only consists of 1-2 squads tops. We aren't 24/7 with our infantry divisions and are somewhat regularly given side objectives that don't include being right on the base, or include defending the area of the base that the enemy is most likley going to try and bring armor in as a counter attack. GOTR doesn't often pull more than a squad or so of tanks but they give us a good fight. Don't tell me that DA never runs with 1-2 squads because that's all your would need. You could fight with Rampage if you wanted to, and we typically avoid zerg armor and flank the enemy away from where the zerg is drawing attention so it wouldn't be hard to spot us.:cool:

    7. Tanks playing a part in capturing a base by supporting infantry and not capturing or shelling the points directly would be ridiculous? Nonsense Ender that's how it has always been at tech plants, amp stations, many major unique bases on Indar and Amerish, and this is somewhat still the case on Esamir too. I haven't seen multiple complaint threads every week complaining about tanks being a part of the base battle and ruining them in the month or so before the Esamir walls were implemented. This so called enragement was nowhere to be found, and even prior to the walled bases people liked playing on Esamir too. . I'm asking for bases to be kept like they are on Indar but with better internal base design that adds more cover like barricades. I want at least part of the walls on Esamir torn down and some of the terrain cleared out so that tanks can have an impact again. Oh and saying get out of your tank is not saying to play like you, because you do infact play mostly infantry, is falase since getting out of my tank is playing infantry which is your primary playstyle. Come on now:p

    Where is this so called outrage on Indar right now, where tanks can impact every single base? Where are the threads stating Indar/Amerish are unplayable tanks are ruining all the fights at this very moment? Tanks are "Ruining good infantry fights" arguments don't stand strong because infantry can fight back with AP tanks, C4, Mines, and would still be able to fight back with lock on's and AV turrets that only had a projectile distance of infantry renderiing range. I'm actually asking for a base to be made more defensible as a whole on Indar and somewhat on Amerish. I'm asking for Esamir bases to have the walls torn down and their internal designed turned up. Sorta like this.


    But with areas like this mixed in between


    Which is certainly an improvement over these current anti-tank base designs show below.



    Thanks for taking the time to have a constructive debate with me so far Ender.:D
    • Up x 1
  11. EliteEskimo

    So Klypto how is the reading the thread to enter the discussion coming along? ;)
  12. Ender

    Corpses only disappear when the player has spawned. If you still see them laying around, then they're trying to wait you out.

    I'd counter, but I have a feeling we're never going to agree on what would be "best" in the general population sense. You don't seem to think a tank being able to shoot at the infantry point determining A would cause outrage whereas I do. We're at an impasse. Also, replying as I have been takes a lot of time that I don't have at the moment =\. Work has picked up significantly and I haven't even gotten to log in the past few days.

    Thanks for not resorting to what most poster's do though, the discussion was legit and having a person around like you in this community is a nice refresher from the standard bash and rage type post.

    P.S. I much favor the last couple pictures than the first couple ;) Personal preference though, maybe that's not what most people want :)
  13. zib1911

    I just want to add a point here because I think there might some miscommunication.

    I don't think eskimo is trying to get tanks to be able to hit the point at all. As tankers I would love to enter into the courtyard of a base at extreme risk to my tank, and put down some fire and absorb fire so my infantry squads can make a push across the open area so that THEY can threaten the point. I do not think Eskimo is trying to advocate tanks sitting on points killing all the infantry, I think he just wants a middle engagment range, between the outside of the base and the inside. Tanks should be a threat at that distance, but they should also be in extreme danger because of infantry all around using the myrid of angles and LOS to kill said tank.

    I felt like that point got a little muddied so I just wanted to clear that part up.
    • Up x 1
  14. theholeyone

    Yup, but if they can wait you out while you are taking fire from other sources; which for TR is any heavy within 500m. The waiting game can get very unbalanced.

    Squad deploy should be, closest deploy location to the squad. Players should not have to worry about drop pods unless there is an enemy beacon in the area.
    • Up x 1
  15. Tommyp2006

    Agreed, you should only be able to engage a target at the same ranges they can engage you.
    • Up x 1
  16. EliteEskimo


    1. I said I don't think tanks should be able to shoot directly at the point, just at the entrances on the building leading to it to help keep enemy infantry out. This is already a mechanic in game for AMP Station/ Tech Plant Shield Generator buildings. There is no outrage about it anywhere. I want to do the same thing with points on most bases to encourage tank/infantry synergy. :cool:

    2. Thanks for the compliments, and it's nice being able to have people you can talk without condescending lingo coming into play. I also give you props for disagreeing with me respectfully:D

    3. I will await the day when DA will put their players in Magriders and try to face Task Force Rampage during an OP. It would be an even amount of tanks all things considered, it would be a good fight, and it would give a good opportunity to show DA that an outfit with good tankers is an advantage.

    4. If you found the latter set of pictures to be the superior base design then it is clear we won't see eye to eye regarding base designs because I find the lower pictures to be pristine examples of horrible base design. I think if DA tried to incorporate some of its MLG skill into ground based vehicles now and then you would see where I'm coming from.

    5. Hope life gets less busy for you, I'm always trying to target you and Jak when I'm blowing up DA but you guys aren't on as much so you're never on my kill feed. Not that I'll be able to talk in two weeks when I go back for my Final year at my University and get significantly busier. :p

    • Up x 1
  17. theholeyone

    As long as they do it from within the facility and can get instagibbed by C4 (ie, huge risk to do it) then I would have no problem. But tbh there is not a lot of difference between door farming and spawn room farming and point farming. Like few people care about tanks going inside an amp station and farming spawn because they are easy fodder and there is other options, but spawn farming from afar when it is the only place to go is not cool.
    My main point, is what annoys infantry is when tanks not just help a battle by closing down a few routes within a base, but close down the majority of options. It just isn't good for infantry gameplay.
    I think currently that effect is exacerbated by the inter-faction imbalance which gives TR an advantage and discourages the other factions from creating amour squads to deal with TR armor.
    • Up x 1
  18. deggy

    Okay, here we go...

    I'm not quoting people in this answer because there are a LOT of people, and that would be a lot of quoting.

    But here are some of the points I'm seeing:

    You're right. They shouldn't. Nobody wants them to be able to do that. Farming a spawn room and having an impact on the fight are not the same thing. I don't even want tanks to be able to shell the control point. What I do want is for the areas around the point to be vehicle-friendly enough that people notice enemy tanks around the base and actively try to take them out.

    There are several reasons I don't do that, the first of which being that if I get out of my tank, it's a free kill for the first infantryman walking by with C4, mines, or a rocket launcher. If my tank was free and only dependent on cooldown, I'd max that certline out and be fine with getting out of it, but vehicle resources are scarce sometimes and I prefer not to waste 450 of them.

    If anyone reading this has ever certed heavily into a tank to make it competitive, they'll know: Tanks are cert dumps. They are very expensive to cert out. There are a truly horrifying number of 1,000-cert unlocks in an MBT's cert screen, from Acquisition Timer to Reload Speed to ES Weapons/Specials to Ammo Capacity to Vehicle Stealth. Even getting a measly 2x Zoom for a tank gun costs 701 certs. The same IRNV Scopes that infantry get for 30 certs cost 200 on tanks (they're called Thermal there). Getting a tank to a point where it can compete with other AP tanks generally runs 5,000 certs. If a tanker wants to get to the point where he has an advantage over his enemy, it's going to be closer to 10,000. Tanks are insanely expensive vehicles to cert into.

    In a Bio Lab, do anti-infantry MAXes die? Of course they do. In a fight against a Liberator or an ESF, can a Skyguard die? Yes, yes it can. Counters in this game aren't "hard" counters, they're "soft" counters. But AV is in a state right now that makes it a hard counter. Vehicles generally can't get close enough to deal with ranged AV threats before dying. Add to that the ease of reviving infantry units and you have an AV camp that takes a very long time to go away.
    • Up x 1
  19. Aesir

    This entire section is the sole reason why most outfits do not run large dedicated Armor Squads, this is why my Outfit is trying to drift away from the idea of bigger Armor Squads and instead use smaller packages who are easier to be dispersed into terrain.

    It simply costs to much time to unroot an AV nest, just that 2 minutes later a Galaxy from the enemy Warpgate rebuilds it in a new spot. But the role of something providing firesupport or clearing the outside is still needed to some degree.

    Most dedicated Tankers that run around organized avoid the allied Tank Zerg as much as they can and try to find and engage the enemy Tank Zerg in between bases under lower numbers. The more Armor the enemy Infantry Zerg sees, the more AV get's thrown into your face.

    Armor Zergs do not work in this game, nor should they, since it's a combined arms game. But Air and Infantry Zergs do work, though Air Zergs only until a certain scale is reached. However Infantry Zergs do work all the time in every situation, the guy who throws the most bodies at the enemy wins.

    For the simple reason of how Infantry stacks in this game. Vehicles have collision, you bring to much you will hinder yourself because you will run out of cover or can't effectively engage a Target because only a set number of Vehicles can look at the target because of the limited space.

    Infantry has no collision ... allowing for as many Infantry as you have to stand in close proximity, vastly boosting the firepower past that what Vehicles can do.

    I might add that PS1 did have Infantry collision to prevent this senseless stacking ...
  20. theholeyone

    Vehicles have splash damage, that scales brutally with infantry stacking.

    I sort of agree with what you mean about infantry zergs always working though, but spawn points are always vulnerable, and infantry zerging across open terrain is often a poor choice. Think north indar and esamir, tanks work great at countering enemy advances unless they have their own tanks.