The Ultimate Combined Arms Thread (Tanks vs Infantry)

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by EliteEskimo, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. EliteEskimo


    Over the course of Planetside 2's history MBT's have had quite a number of changes and at one point were spammable paper tigers. While powerful to use on the offensive they were also quickly destroyed by infantry AV counters. So together with help of numerous players giving feedback and suggestions over the course of a month I made the case tanks were too weak and spammy in the original "Ultimate Combine Arms Gameplay Thread" . Shortly afterwards tanks were given a small armor increase.:D

    Fast forward to today and we have tanks that are a little more difficult to take down but are now roughly twice as expensive, with less splash damage and less explosive AOE than before to reduce the infantry farming potential of tanks. In addition with base designs being improved, further improved base designs coming out in the future, and now Hossin's natural anti-tank environment coming out the overall effectiveness and role of tanks in the game has been reduced and is descending to dangerous levels.

    As a both a Dedicated Front Lines Tanker, which is a Tanker who fights on the front lines where allied infantry are located, and a member of tactical combined arms outfit which is heavily invested in the teamplay aspect of MMO's I think that with the current and coming changes being a Tanker leaves a lot to be desired. Planetside 2 should be making sure Tankers in Planetside 2 serve an important purpose in helping their team/outfit take each and every base. However Tankers have been losing their role to do so to the point that Dedicated Tankers and fans of Combined Arms Gameplay with Armor involved must now come forward to make that case before an important and epic part of the game is lost.

    Before I begin I would like to say thank you to the numerous players that made this thread possible through the combined thoughts and feedback from those players within combined arms outfits which make use of Armor, and also from numerous Dedicated Tankers who believe in gameplay centered around combined arms teamwork. These players and I believe a discussion must take place on what players think the future roles of what tanks should be in terms on their offensive capacity, defensive capabilities, and where they come into play in a combined arms game like Planetside 2.

    The 2 Roles Tanks Should Fulfill On The Battlefield

    1. Courtyard Support in Bases

    While bases should be provided with fortifications, blockades, barriers, Phalanx Turrets, and walls to fight against tanks they should not completely exclude tanks from the core of the bases themselves. What we're asking for are bases that act more like Amp Stations and Tech Plants rather than the Bio Labs. What we like about bases with courtyards is that they are dangerous to be in, and this allows infantry to quickly decimate any Tanker who isn't situationally aware of their surroundings. At the same time good courtyards allow for a skilled Tanker supported by infantry and his/her own situational awareness to be able to make a helpful contribution to the team in the process of taking the base. At the same time to deter tank spawn camp situations I would suggest design changes which are already in game at some bases. I will discuss this later down in the thread.

    2. Front Line Pushers and Armor Destroyers in Large Open Field Battles

    One of the greatest things that Tankers had to look forward to were the large open field battle fields between Tanks. However now that tanks are more rare and expensive this rarely ever occurs, and when it does occur it is now commonly interrupted by long range infantry AV sources which tanks can't fight against and/or render. We think it's perfectly fine that a well organized force of infantry can shut down a group of tanks. We're also all for the plethora of AV counters that MBT's have to keep them from becoming too powerful, but here are a few counters in particular that stop tanks from fulfilling these two important roles.

    :eek:What's Ruining Tank Vs Infantry Balance in Order of Brokenness :eek:

    1. AV Mana Turret
    This engineer weapons has been hands down and is undisputedly the most over powered thing in the game since it was released. We don't understand is why a device with powerful unlimited laser-guided Tank Missiles, a non rendering turret and missiles in larger battles and/or at Longer Ranges of 500M+ is in the game. Even in the rare times that the turret does render trying to hit a single pixel is next to impossible for a tank at this distance and to make matters worse you have to hit with 2 Prowler shells to destroy them. Get two engineers working together with AV turrets and they can literally shut down an entire armor squad by themselves. If you manage to get more than 2 AV turrets working together there isn't even a reason to pull armor as you will be instantly gibbed in moment of being within their LOS. Here's an example of one being used effectively from 678 meters.
    AV turrets are the biggest menace to tank battles and their ludicrous range completely makes tanks obsolete for taking out other tanks. We feel that the guided range on these turrets needs to be reduced to 300m after which they will continue on in that direction, or just turn the AV turret into a Halberd Turret. Here are a few examples short videos of AV turrets demolishing armor at extreme ranges below.

    (Note that tank armor has been slightly buffed in some of these videos, but since the turrets can fire multiple powerful rockets at once at longer ranges it almost hasn't changed the following scenarios at all) (Another good example) (Another good Example)

    2. HA Rocket Launchers
    The range of all rocket launchers need to be reduced so they can only be fired at infantry render distance at the very max. As cool and powerful as they are there should not be any infantry counter that a tank can itself not render or attack against or else it defeats the purpose of being in a tank. There is nothing more broken than an invisible entity dealing damage to you where you can't fire back and many of the current launchers fit that category. A few short video examples are listed below for your enjoyment.

    (Travel to the 9 minute mark of the video and watch up to the 15 minute mark for Lancer)

    Showcasing problems with all Lock-On Launchers at far distances

    Showcasing the post nerf Annihilator shutting down armor at ranges it cannot fight back.

    3. C4

    This is a hotly contested issue, especially among Light Assaults, but one that inevitably needs to be put forward. First off it's typically always the Tankers fault when you die to C4 from infantry on the ground. That being said there are instances that you literally cannot prevent someone with C4 from Instagibbing your MBT even with Max Level Proximity Radar equipped. C4 currently doesn't need to land behind your tank or even on the tank to Instagib it, only beside it in any direction. By Instagib I mean the time it takes for the device to start doing damage to the target to when the target dies. Which for activating 2 C4 is an instant.

    When Rocket-pods had a 1.5 second TTK on a MBT pilots would often tell us that the time it took to line up the shot made it not Instagib even though the rockets took 1.5 seconds to kill a MBT. By that same logic the pre-nerf Hacksaw Maxs or PA Shotguns were never Instagib to infantry because of the time it took the user to get close enough to use it on the enemy. In the same way C4 is Instagibbing tanks because you can rapidly deploy both sticks needed to kill the tank, which is unaware of an infantry threat in midair, and the tanker won't react to the C4 until the tank is blown up.

    Then there is the death from high above tactic, of which I've been the target of numerous times.
    For those of you saying that it takes an ESF to drop out of the sky, it matters not unless the LA is also a dedicated pilot who is then robbed of his playstyle for taking out the tank. It also is rather easy to jump out of a Galaxy/Liberator that is flying over a large battle as well. Regardless, the end is a MBT being blown up in a way that is unpreventable and a playstyle being put on cool down. Proximity Radar also doesn't pick up LA's drifting over 50 meters above you either which adds to this cause of death being unpreventable. My evidence is in the video below, and this is a more common tactic than you might think.

    (Death From Above)

    There are two simple ways to accomplish fixing this problem without nerfing C4. Making C4 do directional damage against tanks, which are the only unit which takes directional damage, would solve part of the problem. It would make it so 2 sticks of C4 activated from the rear of the tank would still kill it , 2 C4 landing ontop of the tank or on the sides would put the tank in the red, and 2 C4 infront of the tank would do 75% damage. Cool thing is that this change would actually make top armor useful again on a MBT. The picture below gives a more simplistic view of how this would work.


    Alternatively Proximity radar could use a range buff to 75m so it can detect LA's coming down from above. I can't tell you what's more frustrating that to be continuously looking at your Max certed proximity radar and yet still dying from C4 because a LA with C4 drifted in from high above on a cliff, Tower Pad or dropped by an aircraft to do it. This is going to be a much biggest issue on Hossin due to the tall trees and tree roots located all around.

    :D(Part 1 of 2):D
    • Up x 45
  2. EliteEskimo

    Base Design, What went wrong and what needs to be changed

    In a true combined arms game Tankers should be able to play a direct role with infantry on the vast majority of the map. Outside and between bases tanks should reign supreme on the ground, and within courtyards should be able to help aid in the capture of points and generators without directly being able to capture the point/generator by themselves. This role used to be a given for every base except for Biolabs, however even there tanks played an important role in that they could secure the points for infantry to cap at several separate substations and gravity lifts which were readily accessible to tanks. Almost anywhere a Tanker went on the map they knew that they could help their outfit/squad at any given base. Other than the apparent lack of shielding around spawn to prevent farming of infantry at spawn, which is still needed, a tanker felt like they could be an important factor helping the team and influencing at each and every base that didn't amount to spawn camping

    Now with the changes made on Esamir the continent has went from the one Tanker's paradise in Planetside 2 and where large scale epic tank battles were the norm... To a place where tall black walls surround many of the bases, random terrain shoots up everywhere including inside bases, bases are clumped together (making tank battles fewer and far between and making tanks less necessary than ever before) ,and making a place where infantry rule. Now many substations surrounding major bases aren't accessible to tanks at all, leaving tankers to wait around outside the cruel black walls wondering why they too can't be a part of the team while taking a base.

    Now since I know everyone here is a fan of pictures to make points.... PICTURES!:cool:

    Here we see one of the typical new Esamir substations which is walled off, and allows no way for a Tanker to help out their outfit. But at least these type of walled off bases are fine as is and wouldn't benefit from having a courtyard right?....

    :eek: WRONG!!!! :eek:

    Meanwhile the refurbished Esamir Amp Stations, which have courtyards, have plenty of places for infantry to pop out to flank vehicles while also allowing vehicles to get inside the base and help support infantry taking the base.

    :cool: Now this is a nice Courtyard...:cool:

    Problem With Spawn Design And What Needs To Be Done About It

    Now one of the biggest gears that infantry have to grind about tanks is spawn farming, and I know many Tankers understand this and wouldn't mind this boring part of the game to go away. It takes little to no skill to farm a spawn no matter what unit you're playing as, infantry can use C4/AI Mines/Maxes, and then every vehicle in the game can blast spawn doors to smithereens given the right loadout. At the vehicle level this needs to stop at the ground level spawn entrances at the very least. How would we fix this problem you ask? Through a design that was recently implemented at EISA Tech Plant on Esamir!:eek:

    Notice the limited field of view and that I can't directly hit the lower spawn door with my main turret

    If one were to even try to keep their tank parked where mine is in a contested base it would only take a matter of seconds before a LA flew over a building or tossed some C4 off the walls to do me in.

    As wee can see there are also several spawn accessible locations for HA's to shoot rockets down upon a tanks in the courtyard area, in addition to having metal sheilds on ground level to use a cover while attacking.

    As you can see it makes this design extremely hard to try to shell inside the main spawn area, and driving right up to the little crevices leaves a tank extremely prone to being C4 from the roofs above. Not only does this design not take much work on the developers part , since they just have to slightly alter an existing design for other bases, but it will also then justify tanks having a role in courtyards which brings me to my next point

    Courtyard Designs Allowing Tanks and Infantry to Work Together Capturing a Base

    So as I have pointed out so far tanks and infantry should have a mutual/combined role in taking bases. Tanks should be given courtyards to drive in as long as tanks aren't farming the spawn within the base. And base defenses should be made in such a way that the defending infantry within the base have significant defenses to utilize against assaulting tanks. What this defense normally means is some Phalanx turrets along the walls pointing both inside/outside the base, but more importantly it means barricades, buildings with windows to shoot out of, and general cover for infantry to use to their advantage against ambushing tanks.

    What does this look this you may ask? Well surprisingly enough while the developers may have destroyed much of the tank haven on Esamir by making the Terrain much more like Amerish, and making the bases are walled off to completely exclude tanks, they have at least created overall great base designs on the core layout of the Amp Stations and Tech Plants on Esamir. The following pictures serve as good role models for bases, and ones that encourage combined arms gameplay between both tanks and infantry.

    Take notice that infantry have several buildings and or rocks to utilize against tanks in every part of the base. At the same time the courtyard allows a tank to help infantry push up to capture shield generators and vehicle bays.

    Although some parts of EISA Tech Plant offer infantry cover in the forum of building and blockades, other parts of the facility instead give infantry natural terrain advantages to fight back against and ambush enemy armor.

    Unfortunately Tanks are quickly on their way to being left by the wayside because of the things mentioned that are causing problems. We as players represent combined arms outfits and team oriented Tankers that are within every faction, and we as Tankers are interested in helping support infantry on the front lines. We believe in being a valued part of a combined arms outfit and this thread represents what needs to happen to keep tanks fun, interesting, and a team centered vehicle in Planetside 2

    We are the Terran Republic!

    We are the New Conglomerate

    We are the Vanu Sovereignty!

    And We Want to Have Important Roles in Planetside 2 Again!

    Thank you for taking the time to read this thread, and I sincerely appreciate any constructive feedback given by players or the developers on what they think regarding the ideas put forth in this thread.
    • Up x 49
  3. Tekuila

    Agree with everything but the rocket pod comment.
    • Up x 1
  4. Mr_Giggles

    You look like you put a lot of work into this post. Gonna post real quick so I can dig it up tomorrow in case it drops from the first page. Looks like it could be a good read with my morning coffee.
    • Up x 3
  5. theholeyone

    AV mana turrets are not hands down the most OP weapon every released into the game, but I guess they might seem like it if your play TR as a tanker... And they have said (command center) they are addressing the non-render issue in an upcoming GU. I agree ith would be great to be able to shoot back at infantry who are shooting you, but it is tricky to code that in; and removing that ability from infantry would render a lot of weapons and tactics useless. I guess one could ask, well what could you do if you could see infantry 500m away, pretty damn hard to land a tank shell on them anyway.

    I think if tanks want to get in close in courtyard combat they do so at their own risk, which is why 2 C4 instagib is fine. I'd like to see more rewards come from tank combat over open terrain, which should be the main place to find tanks; not shelling enemy spawn rooms.
  6. EliteEskimo

    Hehe well at least it's water under the bridge now Tekuila, plus you know I'm sympathize with pilots and I play with pilots in my outfit every time I log on :)

    That being said, I do not wish to relive the 1.5 second TTK Horror that used to be rocketpods so I will have a video do it for me.

    Thankfully now Tankers actually have a chance to react! :eek:
    • Up x 9
  7. Tekuila

    I want wing mounted vulcans. >:D
    • Up x 2
  8. EliteEskimo

    I would disagree because they effectively take out tanks better than tanks can at ranges farther than tanks can all while remaining a pixel in size or not rendering at all. If you ever get 3 working together at a high position you can effectively make pulling armor worthless, and this is 3 people in a game with battles consisting of 100's of players. It's not tricky to code rendering issues in if you go about the problem by simply reducing the range of the turret to the distance that coding makes infantry render, reducing the range of a weapon is not difficult and that's what I'm asking for. I asked for AV turrets to have a guided effect for 300m or just be a Halberd Launcher Turret. At least then I can dodge the missiles at further ranges and thus the problem goes away and open field tank battles can resume without being hampered by a few specs sitting 600M away from the battlefield.

    I also agree the 2 C4 instagib is fine under the right circumstances but I think it should do directional damage so that it requires you to tactically lob the C4 where it will do so, at the back of the tank. This will make no difference to zerg tankers who are oblivious but will make a difference to dedicated tankers who have to deal with LA's lobbing C4 ontop of their tanks from high above where they can't see it coming. This happens outside the courtyard too, as I showed you in a video, which is why this needs to change. I also stated I think shelling spawn rooms should go away and not be an option at all, did you read the ideas put forth in the thread or just rush a response to say I was wrong?
    • Up x 11
  9. Hibiki54

    That was a great write up.

    I do agree with you in 95% of your post. However, not all bases should have courtyards that armor can push into and support infantry. For Facilities such as Amp Stations, Tech Plants and limited access in Bio Lab open areas, sure. Armor needs to be utilized to both defend and push into these areas to support troops. In small bases like Outpost and Towers, that is a different story. They should be designed for it to be nearly impossible to get MBTs into the base. Limited access for Lightning and Harassers.

    No matter how they do design the small outposts and towers, players are creative and they WILL find a way to be effective with their armor. The new Saerro Listening Post on Esamir is a great example. No access for vehicles except for those spawning. Yet you can set on the adjacent hill with a deployed Prowler, Lightning, Magrider or whatever artillery of choice and spam HE into the base.

    C-4 will eventually see a nerf via damage or resource costs, so we really do not need to worry about it.

    Completely agree on the AV turret. But, there should be a way to fairly nerf it without changing it too much. Maybe a limited ammo capacity that can only be replenished by resupplying?

    If we look into Rocket Launchers, we're going to open a huge can of worms no one want to get into. If we go by what you suggest, the NC is already making progress by having the Phoenix. However, if we nerf all rocket launchers to have a 300m limited range, then they need to buff other attributes to make them more competitive against armor that can shell you from 400m distance. That limited range will also be a huge nerf against air vehicles, which do not need any more buffs at current.
    • Up x 2
  10. theholeyone

    The mere fact we are disagreeing about it means you can't disagree when I said it was not hands down undisputedly OP.

    Reducing range changes the weapon completely, the thread title is about combined arms, shouldn't you task your allies with the removal of an AV nest?

    I would say if you can get close enough to a tank or high enough above it to put C4 on it, then that is the right circumstances. It's combined arms, get your allies to give you some cover, or don't park so close, C4 deterrent duty means tanks can't just advance through infantry without proper support.

    I was addressing the main points, spawn rooms are often in courtyards, you think tanks should get a buff to courtyard combat, so I figured that would result in more spawn room shelling, right?

    I don't think tanks should be effective inside courtyards, currently the balance is about right there, they must keep moving or expect to get blown up, they can do a lot of damage against enemy vehicles or personnel but it generally has to be, hit, run, repair.
    I think with the exception of some rendering issues and lock ons, tanks are also fairly well balanced out between bases. However they lack utility in such situations when the enemy can just fly over, put some beacons down and bypass the armor column completely. I'm hoping the resource revamp with ANT sundies will give them more of a purpose.
    • Up x 1
  11. LIKE A BOSS!

    I find this super funny this is coming from a TR the "Tank Zerging" faction :D
    • Up x 1
  12. Shadowyc

    :eek: A tank driver requesting the inability to blast everyone in Spawn into tiny little chunks? I'll support any of this, if it means I can finally run out of an overrun base's spawn without dying at the door.
    • Up x 2
  13. EliteEskimo

    I'm glad you liked the thread Hibiki,

    Not all bases need Courtyards because yes it wouldn't be practical for all outposts, but I feel that all bases need to be able to be influenced in some way by tanks even if they can't drive into them. Although being inside a courtyards it is my preferred message as it is dangerous and exciting, to mix some things up I do not mind if the method involves shelling as that is some people's cup of tea if you will. What I don't like are the bases surrounded by walls and hills 360 degrees around that a tanker can't do anything but sit outside. Keep in mind this thread represents not just my ideas but from over a dozen players from numerous outfits and factions that I asked to help give my views balance.

    My Rocket Launchers solution is not a can of worms, because it has been an underlying problem ever since the Annihilator came out with a 500m range way back when. I don't care how you people spin it but in no way should tanks not being able to see infantry hitting them past infantry render distance. You should ideally never have a situation where infantry can out range armor while at the same time remaining invisible, it's a recipe for disaster. Armor is supposed to be the king of the open fields, and yet infantry are the king of the open field because they can hurt a tank while invisible and can out range a tank. When infantry become a better method of taking out tanks then aircraft or other tanks it throws the entire combined arms balance out of whack and tilts the balance way towards infantry. A great balance was back when their was a G2A launcher that locked on to air, but had a high velocity dumbfire option that could be used against tanks, and then there was a G2g launcher that had higher damage and locked on to ground. If we reduce the range of launchers their velocity could easily be increased to balance them if they become underpowered.
    • Up x 1
  14. EliteEskimo

    I'm disagreeing with you about it being undisputedly OP given its long list of ridiculous traits, and I've NEVER seen a good arguement that stated otherwise. Lets once again look at this ridiculous weapon, even though the videos clearly show how broken it is at long ranges.

    It doesn't render in large battles or at longer ranges, it can fire from vehicle render distance, it can shoot unlimited powerful missiles which at times are invisible, the turret itself can respawn an unlimited number of times, the missiles are laser guided, you can have more than one missile in the air at once at longer ranges, and it takes 2 prowler shells to destroy.

    Yes the thread is about Combined Arms, but infantry shouldn't be the hard counter to vehicles from a range that exceeds vehicles. Why would you pull a tank to fight a group of tanks, if you can effectively take out all those tanks with yourself and a buddy at a range the tanks can't fight back and for 0 resources. Gee that's a tough one isn't it:rolleyes:

    Look, they ruin balance because they take infantry from being the king of the courtyard and bases to the king of the open field. Infantry do not get to be the kings of everything or else there is no need to pull vehicles. That's the whole point of the thread!

    No if someone flies high enough above a tank that is not "the right circumstances". If I'm in a tank with Proximity Radar and I'm actively with friends and yet you can just fly down from a distance and Instagib me haphazardly something is inherently wrong. Did you not see the video of tanks or Sunderer's getting blown up because the LA activaley bypassed all the defenses through the air? I hardly ever get C4'd from the ground, and when I do it is my fault. However, when it comes from the air it is more or less impossible to counter and that's messed up. Do you think people should have to look up into the sky constantly to be on the look out for LA? No... It's the same old crap arguement ESF's made telling tanks to always check behind them in the middle of a field or when firing always keep your butt against a rock or building. It's a cheap arguement and Tankers aren't buying it. I already said in my thread that dying from C4 from the ground is fine and takes way more skill and great timing. Dropping out of the sky and having C4 land around my tank , probably not even directly on it, and blowing it up takes much less skill and their is literally no way a Tanker can prepare for it.

    I said tanks should be allowed in more courtyards if they couldn't farm the spawn, spawn farming is boring, requires minuscule amounts of skill, and just pisses infantry off. Infantry could still heavily damage a tank from all sides if they got C4 in close proximity of it with the change, and under most circumstances it means that a rocket will be coming shortly after to finish them off. Also consider I said courtyards should have lots of cover shouldn't make flaking a tank to get that instagib kill out of the question against your every day zerg tanker.

    All factions tank zerg, and most dedicated tankers hate tank zergs because it results in us getting TK'd by people who don't know how to drive. My outfit actively avoids zergs for just that reason.

    Lol thanks, and you know a lot of dedicated tankers don't find farming spawn very fun. We're into tanks for fun and exiting battles tank battles or blowing up infantry preventing our guys from moving forward, just sitting still waiting for an infantry to poke out the spawn door is as fun as watching paint dry. I don't mind if it goes away for good, and neither do the tankers I talked to to forum this thread.:)
    • Up x 4
  15. ovakin

    I had a talk with a friend who was in the Army after the Esamir Update about the roles of tanks, they are used to destroy things that Infantry cannot destroy.
    We need structures that are impossible Infantry to attack without tanks or airstrike, like bunkers, shields around bases that tanks can blow holes in so Infantries can enter.
    Also a job board like Users Missions in RoadMap, if someone are a dedicated Tanker or Pilot, I bet most of the times he spam spawn room because he doesn't know where else his empire needs him, and rather gets some kills than wandering around aimlessly.
    This current state of the game it's just so hard to work with other people, and inconvenient for those who have little time each day to enjoy the game. Command Comm only available to Squad Leads, /Orders get buried by thousands of other things.
    Imagine you get home from work and in the mood for some Tank Battle or Dog Fight, you open the Jobs Board Menu and Boom! there's a list of locations for you to chose from with Intels submitted by your faction mates.

    tl,dr: User Submitted Missions is badly needed.
    • Up x 3
  16. theholeyone

    I don't think you understand what undisputed means, it means a claim without dispute, it is clearly disputed; as follows, I'll point to strikers instead as they have changed the whole balance between factions; we don't take air against TR anymore if there is NC to fight, likewise we avoid taking tanks against them; engie turrets just aren't very widely used, they take more skill, and they are easy pickings for snipers or aircraft anyway.

    I'm saying is reducing range is not the way to go here, I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong with fire coming from guys you can't shoot back at (I said the opposite to that in my first post in this thread). And getting allies to remove AV nests is a viable strategy, couple of rocket pod runs over an AV turret nest will leave nothing behind. Lets face it, AV turrets, lock ons, and lancers are only good at long range, they will stay in the game as long range weapons. Try to come up with a constructive solution to the problem instead of just whining for them to be removed.

    Don't stay in the same place so long, don't park so close to places of high altitude LAs can drift over from. Your directional solution doesn't really address this anyway, what if they just throw 2 C4 down behind you?

    Fine, but how do you allow them more utility in courtyards without increasing their ability to shell the spawn room?
    • Up x 1
  17. EliteEskimo

    Hmm perhaps I should rephrase that, it's the most undisputed thing in the game among people concerned with game balance. I've had multiple AV -Turret Users who killed me in game tell me "It's OP so why wouldn't we use it?" and other people who get incredible scores with it and love using it , but admit it is OP. There are very few items in the game like that where people will readily admit is OP while at the same time very few people will say it is not OP. I see you are one of those few people. If you are not defending that fact that there is nothing wrong with being hit by an invisible source that you can't fight back against than you can quite literally not defend keeping the AV turrets range in check because the game obviously can't handle rendering it or its projectiles properly.

    Furthermore, there should not be weapons available to infantry that as an individual make them better at taking out tanks at range than a tank can take out a tank. It defeats the purpose of a tank if anyone can simply find a hill and quickly plink the tank away from a range the tank can't fight back. The range must be reduced or the laser guidance must disappear in some form. It's the only true way to fix it. I provided a constructive way to fix the problem, you merely said "no that's wrong way to go about it" then acted as if I never put forth a suggestion and called me a whiner with no constructive solutions. Nice.....

    Oh and since you seemed to miss this, you probably didn't read the entire thread either, this is in no form a whine thread. It's a constructive criticism of bad things in the game that was formed over the course of weeks with having over a dozen players offering suggestions on what I had written. People don't spend weeks making a thread to "Whine", they spend two weeks to be have a shot to be heard out by the community and to make a professional thread to get the developers attention. This thread doesn't just represent me it actively represents hundreds if not thousands of players within the Planetside2 community who are in combined arms outfits and like having armor be a part of it, and people who are just a fan of tank warfare in a combined arms scenario.

    The don't stay in one place for too long tip is a tired one, and one with little merit. If you watched the C4 video you would notice that the tanks and Sunderers getting C4'd were in fact moving or were surrounded by players defending it. A Sunderer is required to be still to deploy, and a tank other than a magrider is require to sit still or move slowly to fire accurately at ranges past short range. Until tanks have turret stabilization to fire accurately on the move at range I will consider this argument invalid because it's not a realistic answer for the universal known facts I put forth.

    Read the dam thread!:mad:

    Problem With Spawn Design And What Needs To Be Done About It
    Now one of the biggest gears that infantry have to grind about tanks is spawn farming, and I know many Tankers understand this and wouldn't mind this boring part of the game to go away. It takes little to no skill to farm a spawn no matter what unit you're playing as, infantry can use C4/AI Mines/Maxes, and then every vehicle in the game can blast spawn doors to smithereens given the right loadout. At the vehicle level this needs to stop at the ground level spawn entrances at the very least. How would we fix this problem you ask? Through a design that was recently implemented at EISA Tech Plant on Esamir!:eek:
    Notice the limited field of view and that I can't directly hit the lower spawn door with my main turret
    If one were to even try to keep their tank parked where mine is in a contested base it would only take a matter of seconds before a LA flew over a building or tossed some C4 off the walls to do me in.
    As wee can see there are also several spawn accessible locations for HA's to shoot rockets down upon a tanks in the courtyard area, in addition to having metal sheilds on ground level to use a cover while attacking.
    As you can see it makes this design extremely hard to try to shell inside the main spawn area, and driving right up to the little crevices leaves a tank extremely prone to being C4 from the roofs above. Not only does this design not take much work on the developers part , since they just have to slightly alter an existing design for other bases, but it will also then justify tanks having a role in courtyards which brings me to my next point
    • Up x 3
  18. UberBonisseur

    Well I don't know what to add other than most of these issues should be solved first by drastically cutting down the potential number of tanks on the field.

    Currently Tank spam is kept in line by overpowered AV infantry weapons.
    Let's not forget the old saying:


    Oh, actually, one of the issues courtyards have is that cover is 100% solid. If you want vehicles in the coutyard, you need a big open area and infantry gets slaughtered. If you want cover for your infantry, you need lots of solid objects and tanks cannot navigate. This could help solve the issue of courtyards:
    • Up x 6
  19. VSDerp

    wow ekismo you put alot of work into this.
    • Up x 1
  20. EliteEskimo

    Good post Uber, however I disagree that infantry need overpowered weapons to counter tank spam. And I'm assuming by overpowered you mean that their range is to far. Their damage is fine, just not the range of engagement they posses. Without that range would it mean they could counter tank spam in an open field at range, probably not. Would it mean they couldn't fight tank spam around or inside a base without these weapons have ranges, certainly not. I'm all for reducing tank spam, but destroying armor gameplay in a feeble attempt to do so is a horrible way to go about it and that's how it currently is in game.

    As I had posted, I want courtyards with lots of cover, and notice that I put up Esamir's Eisa Tech Plant as a role model. It doesn't have huge wide open spaces all around the core of it, there is almost always cover present. That's what I was going for, that's what the pictures in the thread and the words around them were making the case for and.. oh you get the point Uber.:p

    Anyhow that's a cool little idea you had there. I was also thinking that bases could have more elaborate designs more with roads that tanks can go through in between buildings and more buildings in general. Say hello to Amp Station 2.0:cool:

    • Up x 6