The ugly truth: Fighting Air is Boring.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Bortasz, May 11, 2014.

  1. Slandebande

    Ah, an argument on semantics :) The realistic chance of it happening is much lower than it is regarding tanks. I also destroyed a few ESFs with my pistols and sniper rifle, but would I say I have a chance using such a weapon against one? No.
    • Up x 2
  2. Axehilt

    Planetside 2 has two combat ecosystems:
    • Outdoors, vehicles are king. This is fine because (a) it gives them a clear purpose, (b) they can't exit indoors, and (c) there are a lot of vehicle types and each offers a different playstyle.
      • Every vehicle should be useful, and every vehicle should have counters to it (specific loadouts of other vehicles that beat it.)
      • We're pretty close right now!
      • Only a few minor tweaks are required (reduce lib agility so they die better to ESFs, buff harassers if they haven't been buffed in the 3 months I've been away from the game; and give Flashes a strong role to fill instead of being completely useless.)
    • Indoors, infantry are king. Well...they should be except then MAXes are overpowered and render infantry useless indoors.
      • So base fights actually have much worse balance problems currently than the outdoor game.
      • MAXes need to be balanced first of all. When they're overpowered, they marginalize the other infantry classes (who basically exist only to support friendly MAXes.)
        • Plus I'm tired of feeling obligated to only play MAX all the time. I like playstyle variety.
        • And yes, this probably means a reduction or removal of MAX cost/cooldown, as those mechanics have never come close to successfully balancing MAXes (and actually help persist the idea that they should be overpowered.)
      • Many more bases need indoor components. (Because there needs to be an indoor period of battle where all infantry classes, including balanced MAXes, are valuable.)
      • The indoor component of bases should be larger. (Because the duration of infantry-dominated fighting should be longer -- purely because so many players want infantry gameplay.)
    So yeah, infantry are trash/fodder everywhere. But outdoors that's expected. Indoors, base design and overpowered MAXes cause infantry to be marginalized in the one place they're most useful.
    • Up x 1
  3. z1967

    You now have to land 3 hits in order to kill a lib with a deci. Apparently two hits just wasn't enough o_O
  4. axiom537

    Silly maybe? Impossible NOPE

    • Up x 2

    And WHY should it be expected ?

    Is PS2 some sort of World War One simulator ?
  6. MorganM

    Making that happen isn't as easy as it sounds. Sure in those big 48+ fights there's plenty of people with AA running around. What's challenging is when you have a small infantry engagement; about 12 on each side. I love these fights, they are a lot more fun IMHO than the huge battles. Then a liberator and an ESF or two show up and it's game over.


    Because not enough people in this fight pull AA. Either they don't have it or they don't pull it. I can't figure out why. I beg, plead, demand, over every comms channel to get them to help... and they don't. Usually ends up with me and MAYBE one other guy with some sort of AA. The aircraft swoop in, kill a few of us, and we scare them off. Never get the a kill, the aircraft farms dozens of kills, so the OP is very accurate... it's freak'n boring for me and rarely pays off.

    Oh and when you do finally manage to get some more AA in the area... they fly off. You get maybe one kill between the 5 of you with AA. The other pilots and crews can tell this hex just got to threatening and they fly off to go poop all over the next fun little engagement. I actually wonder if some guys just don't pull AA because it's not worth it. So you can spend 10 to 20 minutes playing cat and mouse with the aircraft, not get any noticable XP, they usually kill you a few times as your waiting for a lock or don't get back in cover fast enough, so they think "why would I even bother?" Can't say I blame them...

    It's getting frustrating and boring.
    • Up x 3
  7. Bloodlet

    So it took 6 of you (since your squad was divided) to effectively kill air that was trickling in from their spawn point. So 6 guys vs 1 lib (3 players at most) or 1 ESF (1 player). You said it took 10 minutes to kill 4 libs and 10 ESFs which tells me they didn't all come at once.

    Yeah...that's efficient to require 2x or more the numbers of players manning the vehicle to be effective at taking them out.:rolleyes:
    • Up x 1
  8. Slandebande

    Air isn't hard countered by ground, as has been noted multiple times. How is something a hard counter if it can only kill the target if the target is lured very close, doesn't break off when taking fire, and not continuing to attack from the same predictable angles? Nothing can chase down a wounded aircraft, except another aircraft. Nothing can reliably kill an aircraft in it's element, barring extreme luck (which isn't reliable anyways, so it is moot). You wrote yourself, either I need to overpop the aircraft I want to destroy (by using AA teamwork, meaning more people to fend off ONE person) or by using aircraft yourself. Sorry, but claiming ground forces are a hard counter (but that you require more ground forces whilst simultaneously also requiring them to work together, whereas the aircraft don't have to consider such things) is a bit silly in my book.

    Yeah, it was my fault I didn't stay right in the middle of the zerg. Sorry about that dear Sky-God, I guess us ground peasants just have to stick together in fear of ONE of you striking us down. Makes sense o_O And yes, tanks get taken out VERY close to huge friendly zergs every single day, despite them being less than 100m from friendly AA forces, so even staying pretty close to the zerg, is in no way enough to protect yourself. And staying with the zerg as a tank, is usually not very fun, nor is it terribly effective for your team and you won't really influence the tide of the battle much from such a position. Also, the tank can die if no allies wanted to pull AA, that actually happens (more often than you would think would be my guess), or just if no AA was actively looking in the correct direction at the time. That isn't really the tanks fault, unless you are then saying the tank should stay inside a cave at all times in such situations. Sounds like a very entertaining game. I certainly don't see aircraft having to hide themselves in a cave.

    Where do I write that I want to be handed a victory just for out-skilling my opponent??? I wrote that once you reach a certain skill-level, you can use that skill to make up for inherent disadvantages in your current loadout/vehicle (not guaranteeing an auto-win, like you for some reason seem to think I mean?). This could for instance be going up against an AP tank while using a HEAT tank yourself. On paper you are at quite a disadvantage, but your skill can compensate for it. As I wrote previously, this risks ending up with the game having an elite top-tier of players, which would be nigh-unkillable in their vehicles, except when faced with the most extreme of odds. A hard counter makes it much more difficult to take advantage of your skill and come out on top regardless of the situation, and they act sort of like a rock-paper-scissors mechanic.

    Sure, you can avoid my Tank Mines by pure luck. That's about it when I've placed them correctly. I've killed very skilled tank crews with my Mines numerous times, not because they got careless, but because I carefully consider the placement of the Mines (and using my extensive experience with them, both using them and being on the receiving end). Don't even get me started on Mine Guard. You can just use Composite Armor and Flares and you are practically immune to ground-based AA as well, right? :rolleyes:

    Aye, apparently ground forces are a hard counter to air (but only if used in mass amounts, compared to the amount of aircraft they want to counter). Sounds fair o_O
    • Up x 1
  9. Axehilt

    You're still not getting it:
    • Sunderers' primary role is spawning troops. They also are a combat vehicle and troop transport.
    • Liberators' primary (and only) purpose is killing ground targets.
    If we imagine a world where Sunderers are also a fantastic AA platform, then we "nerf" that away from them, you can see how they still have a critical role (andtwo other roles) to fill.

    But if we imagine a world where ground AA strongly counters air, you remove the only role of Liberators. They literally become purposeless.

    That is why your earlier post, even as a "silly counter", makes no sense at all.
    • Up x 1
  10. Axehilt

    It's about creating a deep game.

    If infantry were great everywhere, you'd just infantry-zerg everything, never make a choice, and do just fine. That's shallow.

    Since infantry are bad outdoors, you're rewarded for choosing the right vehicle for the current battle conditions. That's deeper, more rewarding gameplay.

    Game depth is important because shallow games get old fast, while deeper ones remain interesting longer.
    • Up x 2
  11. MostlyClueless

    It's not meant to make sense. It's meant to show how dumb saying "If I can't kill ground with impunity I can't kill ANYTHING" is.

    I mean even if the Sunderer was a great AA platform (It's not) I'm not saying it should 0HK any lib it sees. It should start ripping it up and if the Liberator doesn't evade and use terrain to get closer so it can use it's close range Tank-buster and high DPS belly gun it'll get panelled.

    The things you prey on having weapons that are effective against you doesn't make you useless. It means you have to fly harder. Maybe do passes! Like a bomber. Instead of just hovering above laying everything flat with your only worry being an ESF or other Lib pilot deciding to come spoil your farm.
  12. MostlyClueless

    The T1-Cycler is a gun that's great everywhere. It's not the only gun I use though. I can choose to specialize to be strong in some areas and weak in others. I could choose a TAR for close range damage, but at the expense of a poor long range option. I could go the opposite and take a SABR. The depth is in picking the right tool for the job, or utilizing the weakness of my opponents weapons with my "Pretty good in all situations" all rounder.

    Tanks are heavy platforms with high DPS potential. They're tough, but if they come into close contact with Infantry they explode so they have to utilize speed and Armour to maintain distance, while using their damage to kill. You can sacrifice Infantry killing potential for Tank killing potential, but both Tanks and Infantry are a threat so choose wisely.

    MAX's are tough but slow infantry with high damage weapons. They lack the versatility of Infantry, but they act as a good forward force. A MAX needs the back up of Engineers and Medics and they can be taken out by the HA's high damage rocket launchers fairly quickly. If they get too close to Infantry they too might explode but unlike Tanks they don't have much speed outside of a Charge move if they take it.

    Being good at a lot of things isn't Shallow, and the things you face having counters increases the complexity not reduces it. The Lib has it too good against Ground right now. Ground isn't a threat outside of an AA camp you can easily fly away from and this makes Liberators far too good at farming ground. That's what I do with it.
    • Up x 1
  13. GaBeRock

    They are an effective AA weapon. Just run double walker and camp an enemy warpgate with a squad, you'll see.
  14. Axehilt

    That's already how things work. A Skyguard will zone out an equally-skilled Liberator, or destroy a dumb one.

    So I guess you have what you want and everything is fine?
    • Up x 1
  15. MostlyClueless

    A liberator has a faster TTK on the Skyguard than the Skyguard does on the Liberator. You won't "Zone them out", they'll just Tankbuster and Dalton/Shred (Zephyr for ultimate humiliation) you.
    • Up x 1
  16. Axehilt

    Well G2A is an umbrella. Setting up an umbrella on your neighbor's front lawn doesn't prevent you from getting rained on. The umbrella only matters when you carry it around to whatever base you happen to be attacking/defending.

    So in most of those AA-camp situations I laugh as I fly around and help my team cap bases behind where they've set up their umbrella. And in the other times, the enemy either has pop advantage or is using combined arms (air, ground, and AA) effectively so that they deserve the victory they earn.
    • Up x 1
  17. GaBeRock

    But with aircraft, a pilot will go to any fight on the continent where they don't feel threatened by flak and lockons. Therefore, each aircraft killed leaving warpgate is an aircraft that won't be harassing your forces. Plus, nearly all squad galaxies come from WG so you can change the course of entire fights being nowhere near them.
  18. axiom537

    Actually it wasn't trickling it came in about 2- 3 waves. The largest of which was (3) Liberators along with about 3+ ESF at the same time, I also think that was the only time we had any deaths, but we needed those players to draw the attention of the Liberators and they where easily revived or re-spawned to get right back into the fight.

    Once the first lib took 4 hawks, and those HA's drew the attention of the other Air vehicles, then the Bursters step in and vaporize the injured Lib and start focusing on the next, as that one is fleeing the Lock-ons finish that one as it is trying to get away. At this point it is quick and easy work to kill off the ESF's with a combination of the bursters either out right killing the ESF or damaging them enough that the lock-ons finish the job as they are retreating...

    All I know it was fun as hell, and we made some really nice XP from the encounter, which counters the OP's topic of this thread. As well as being fun, we constantly hear the argument that in smaller <24 fights end as soon as a liberator comes in it ruins the fight or they completely dominate the ground troops in smaller engagements. Here is a case where not only did more then one liberator come in but it was also supported with multiple ESF and one squad easily dispatched and KILLED most of the enemy air that came at us.

    I am not sure where your argument is going in regards to efficiency. 12 Infantry easily destroyed 14+ Air vehicles many of which where liberators in a matter of about 10 minutes.
    • Up x 1
  19. Ronin Oni

    uhm, of course.

    I said "Vehicles" not "tanks"

    Libby's prolly wouldn't use it as much but I could see swapping out Dalton/Zephyr depending.... ESF's on the other hand are often much more specialized.

    I really want it for ground vehicles though... we'd actually see Walkers/Rangers on tanks, more skyguards, etc. Not a LOT more, but enough (not a lot more because they'd swap out as soon as there's no air threat big enough to keep it)

    This would generally give air short windows of opportunity with which to operate before they get forced out of a region by sheer volume of AA.
    • Up x 1
  20. NC_agent00kevin

    Ive seen some claims that a single burster max or skyguard can easily deal with air.

    This is flat out false. Its a lie. It is a joke even.

    A single Skyguard has zero chance against a Dalton/Tank Buster Lib. We laugh at Skyguards, dive on them then belly up for the finishing couple dalton rounds. We land on the next side of the hill, repair, and are back in the fight within a minute.

    A single Max is also a joke. He is very dead unless he is hiding in a spawn room. Two maxes means one dies and the other will die on the next pass.

    Lock ons? Pfft. Max flares.

    As a Lib gunner I can attest to the fact that ground to air is the least of our worries. Flak turrets in unison can hurt us and they are slightly more difficult to take out, but if you get the drop on them, its just like with the Skyguard: Tank Buster, belly up, Dalton. Bye Bye Turret. Yes, we are hurt but not dead and we fly to the next hillside, repair and return for more farming.

    All these guys defending the ground to air game as it stands are trying to fool you. They know full well that it is frustrating, boring and generally unrewarding to play AA guy. They enjoy farming from the safety of the skies and flying away at the slightest hint of danger. Take it from an experienced and skilled Dalton and Bulldog Lib gunner. I also fly, but generally just gun. If our 'ace' pilots arent on, I fill the role and do nearly as well. I even solo Lib with a reasonable level of effectiveness - my best being fighting 3 Mossies at the SE warpgate on Indar and winning. Usually I just do high speed Zephyr passes from multiple vectors.

    As an Infantryman on the ground, it is exceedingly frustrating to deal with air. Mostly Libs, but ESFs in certain terrain can be nigh invincible as well.

    The problem is this: You cannot balance Libs and ESFs for 1-12 battles and have them be of any use in 48+ battles. If they are effective in 48+ battles, they are nearly undefeatable in 1-12 battles. Especially equipped with Flares and Composite. Its a no win scenario. if Libs are ineffective in 48+ battles, they will flock to and utterly dominate smaller battles. If they are effective in 48+ battles they still flock to smaller engagements because they know they are going to be able to deal with just about anything thrown at them - and if enough guys go on AA duty to stop them, the base will be lost while they focus on the Lib.

    There isnt much that can be done to balance Libs and ESFs for every aspect of the game. I do notice fire supression is used a lot, and perhaps reverting it to only being used when actually on fire would help. In fact, a reasonable balancing move would be to make it a passive certification that automatically activates when on fire but cannot be used to regenerate health at will.
    • Up x 3