The ugly truth: Fighting Air is Boring.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Bortasz, May 11, 2014.

  1. Bortasz

    The ugly truth of Planetside is that when you are on the ground. Fighting air unite is simple not fun.
    You see. When you are on the ground and you see a tank, you think how to destroy him and kill his crew. Do you take C-4 Faire, to drop on them? Ore maybe place Tank mines and lure them to the trap? You are exceeded to take them out. If they kill you? Sucked. There was big reward, there is big risk. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you don't.
    Now. This don't apply to air unite. Majority of players cannot kill Air unite. Ad best they scare them away. And there is no fun in scaring somebody away. We play Planetside to kill. To fight. Scaring guy who just kill 5 of our friends is not what we wants.
    As long as there will not be fun in fighting air. There will be a ton of threads on this Reddit and on the forum that demand nerfing the air. As long as players on the ground will not see a air unites as something fun to play against, there will be a problem.
    Hier is video about Counter play: We need good counter play in Air-ground and ground-air fights.
    Without interesting counter play in fighting air, there will not be and to the thread about nerfing ground.

    When I fight Air I feel like security guard in Disneyland. When everybody have fun I have to protect them against does dam air sky-gods.

    So question to all. How make fighting air more interesting?
    • Up x 11
  2. Nerp

    Get a squad of friends and sit outside of an enemy warpgate with lockons and burster maxes. Heuheuheuheu.
    • Up x 7
  3. Plunutsud pls

    A couple Burster MAXes will annihilate any air unit.

    5 HAs with lockons with do pretty much the same.

    Multiply those numbers by 5-10 for outfits, and things suddenly look balanced.

    I don't fly myself and don't plan to start anytime soon.

    I enjoy shooting down flyboys, it's great fun, especially when they are flying around feeling so invincible, and then stuff hits the fan.
    • Up x 3
  4. Badname707

    Fighting air from the air, however, is one of the best things this game has.

    • Up x 6
  5. Iridar51

    That is actually a very good comparison. That's exactly how it feels.
    • Up x 14
  6. Iridar51

    Oh and infantry players don't have a skill curve?
    • Up x 9
  7. Utrooperx

    Ah, the "Infantry vs Air Farce" skill curve...

    Die three times to a 200 meter high invincible Sky God...then /redeploy...

    Works every time ;)

    Remember, its YOUR choice to be farmed...follow this simply rule and avoid feeding a Sky Warrior's ego!
    • Up x 1
  8. MichaelS

    Wow, I'll guess the amount of xp you get was amazing compared to fighting tanks/infantry :)
    • Up x 1
  9. evilduck

    shocking news: there are players who play for the team aspect of the game

    you know its a multiplayer game, a massive one btw, though if you find aspects of the game boring why not concentrat on the things you think are fun and worthwhile and let other guys do the "boring" stuff

    and to the air is op thingie. we clear the skies EVERY SINGLE TIME in mere minutes when we go anti air with a single squad regardless the amount of air the enemy has in the zone. teamplay beats anything in this game and rightfully so

    and just as an example. not too long ago we had a massive antiair/anti tank setup above quartz ridge. about 30 people. the amount of air the vanu throw at us was unbelievable (KOTV at it s finest), several attempts for galdrops to take us out, several attempts to flank us in force with tanksupport. 3 big pushes to the palisade to cut us off...

    if you think this is boring you are in the wrong game
    this is how its meant to be played


    • Up x 1
  10. Bortasz

    Shocking news, If not my outfit I will not play this game.
    My team is only real reason that hold me hire.
    They are reason why I'm ready to become the security guard in Disneyland.
    I'm team player.

    This thread is about that I should not be a security guard in Disneyland. I should have fun like rest of my Team.
    Also why the hell I don't need team to destroy sundies, MBT and other Infantry, but I need to destroy Air?
    • Up x 4
  11. Badname707

    Someone has to destroy infantry, or you will die to infantry. Someone has to kill MBT's, or you will die to MBT's. Someone has to kill air, or you die to air. Unfortunately for people who refuse to fly, the most fun class of vehicle is most easily countered by the least fun weapons to use. You can't much change this without ruining the air game, thus removing the point of having AA in the game. You may say that's a good thing, but this game honestly doesn't work without having aircraft in it. Remove the galaxy, and you significantly hurt the infantry game. Try leaving in the galaxy without other aircraft, and you have something that really can't effectively be balanced. Try to take away the A2G aspect of the air game, making it all revolve around galaxies, and there's less of an air game than there is an air minigame.

    Fact is, the game needs MORE infantry farmers, but with better methods of balancing them out. Unless there is some form of crowd control weapons(and if you remove air, then you basically have to replace with artillery), then overpop has even more of an advantage than it does now. Granted, the resource game is not nearly balanced how it ought to be, but the air game itself, taken independently from the rest of Planetside, is one of my favorite games there is. As someone who plays infantry most often, though, I don't really mind air so much; its just doing its job.
    • Up x 1
  12. Bortasz

    After this I stop reading.

    Point 1.
    - When you will be force to pull tank to destroy my tank, I will agree that I have to pull Air to counter Air.

    Point 2.
    - The air unite are the most Fun to you. Why sky-gods remember that this game is Multiplayer game only when they precious sky chariot are in danger.

    Point 3
    - I want to have more fun fighting Air. I don't want anything else.
    • Up x 12
  13. Badname707

    Sure, alright. Let me explain how this game works, right quick like.

    Point 1

    A light assault can escape up or attack from a rooftop that you can't reach without also being a light assault. This gives him an advantage, but he gives up other abilities for that one advantage. You're a LA, and you engage with a medic, and disengage after both of you have taken damage. He won't come out of cover, so you must engage him at half health while he's full up. A heavy assault runs through a door on the other side of a hall, and wipes out the medic with one rocket. An infiltrator decloaks and unloads his smg into the back of the heavy's head while he's reloading his rocket launcher. Which one of these is OP? In every case, we see abilities given up for other abilities. The effectiveness of that ability is based on what's going on in the battle at that time.

    Vehicles are a little different, because they are widely different in function from one another, but even so, there are clear tradeoffs for each. The primary trait of the tank is its ability to stay in the fight and continuously deal damage while still maintaining a pretty high damage output. Tanks can even be repaired while under fire, further increasing their ability to soak up damage. The trade offs for this are in their size and lack of mobility, which forces them to stay near cover, near other friendly vehicles (who can take some fire that would otherwise be directed at you), or by operating in an area where the enemy is suppressed. In a sense, even on an offensive push, the role of tanks are defensive; your reason for being there is to soak up damage and keep the enemy occupied with something other than killing your infantry and support vehicles.

    Aircraft, on the other hand, have an entirely different role to play. Excluding galaxies, aircraft are strike vehicles, intended to thin out spam, clear out defensive fortifications, locate and destroy isolated enemies, to give cover to ground vehicles from enemy aircraft, and to give cover to friendly aircraft from AA. Air, by its nature, is the most mobile thing on the battlefield. It's basically a given that most things aren't going to be able to attack it, and if they can, the pilot usually has the choice between whether he lives or dies. The trade off for this is the inability to operate under sustained fire. If they can get a bead on their target before engaging, they can typically get a salvo off, escape, and repair. If they are engaged first, it's more likely that they won't deal any damage that round, or that they'll make a run and get shot down. The more AA in the area, the less likely that you will be able to do anything effective at all. In a sense, they are almost the opposite of tanks, except they both have a pretty high damage output, so long as they specialize their loadout for the type of engagement they are looking for.

    So how does AA fit in? Well, there's actually a decently wide selection of options, each with its own niche to fill. Flak weaponry is relatively easy to hit with, has a consistent damage output, and can often blind the gunner or pilot of the attacking vehicle. Lock ons (AKA Heavy Assaults) don't instantly deal damage, making it impossible to know how many you have locked on to you as well as being on a tiny weapons platform that could be hiding anywhere, as well as being versatile against any other target. The burster MAX gets much of the same advantages of being an infantryman (ability to switch loadouts, revivable, terrain friendly), with enough durability to take fire and still keep up its damage output. The Skyguard isn't as versatile as the MAX, but is far more durable and mobile, making for a much more difficult target for aircraft in favorable terrain. The AA turret is completely immobile, but it is available at BR 1 for free, is decently durable, is always housed near infantry cover, and is often ignored entirely by air. There are more AA weapons, and more weapons that are also effective against air (AP rounds, walkers, basilisks, etc), but I wouldn't call these dedicated AA platfroms, so I won't discuss them further.

    The one trait that all AA weapons have in common (except for lock on rockets and basilisks) is that they are all really good at killing air, but not all that good at anything else. While I personally think that most AA weapons should also be more effective against light vehicles and infantry, that AA is boring and not good for much else is basically a critical component of the air game: make it too versatile, and it will be ever present. If AA is around all the time, then air needs to be buffed to be able to take sustained fire or have a higher damage output for one salvo, or otherwise will be almost completely useless. If it gets buffed, then that means it will be even more powerful in the kinds of fights where there is less AA, which was how the game used to be. Right now, the air balance is basically on point, an awesome experience in itself without being too much of a nuisance to the rest of the game (and if you played in early, early beta, air was a nightmare). Being the kind of player who does and has done just about everything this game has to offer, including every ground vehicle, infantry class, and leadership position, I think air is basically right where it needs to be.

    "But AA is too weak!" You cry, "what advantage does AA have against air?" Well basically all of the AA weapons are high velocity, high capacity, high RoF, but low damage output weapons that are easy to hit with. If AA is too lethal too quickly (at least from a single source), then air will die more often than it deals damage. It's specifically designed to give aircraft time to escape, unless you have a lot of AA in the area. It's not meant to kill air. It is made to be way better at killing and driving away air than anything else on the ground.

    "But one aircraft can kill one piece of AA! How is that fair?" Well, sometimes it can, sometimes it can't. Oftentimes AA is in an area where ground forces can't reach, so air HAS to be given some ability to counter its counter. That said, the only times it will really have an opportunity is when it gets the drop on its foe, or by overwhelming it, a highly risky tactic either way. Usually, however, the AA will spot the aircraft first, and will be engaged and driven away. The more AA you have in the area, the less time air gets to spend doing damage. The more air you have than the enemy has AA at any one given time, the more likely your AA is going to get killed by an aircraft it isn't looking at.

    Point 2

    "So basically what you're saying is that the air game is at the expense of the ground game?" No, I think the air game is the wild card that keeps certain tactics from getting overused. Air is high skill floor, high skill ceiling, high mobility, high damage output and made of glass. It's whole point is to swoop in and **** **** up, including other air when it has to. It's point is to be that one thing that can deal damage to a unit, even where everything else can't. Is their tank zerg bigger than yours? Are you being overwhelmed by a superior number of enemy infantry? Aircraft are the great equalizer; they let you be incredibly threatening with less numbers than you would have otherwise. This forces large zergs to come prepared when on the offensive, or face the consequences. On the flip side, say you have pop on the defense, but just aren't able to output enough damage to let you advance. Air lets you poke a hole so that the rest of your force can advance.

    I suppose what I'm saying, is that from a tactics and strategy side, air can sometimes be a pain, but it is such an interesting and useful mechanic that it's hard to be mad at. Air units have a role to play, in the grand scale of things, that often is difficult to appreciate from the ground. Air is effective, and it must be to be useful. There is no other way about it. The good news, is that there isn't any such thing as a 'ground' and an 'air', at least so far as the player is concerned. The player has equal access to both.

    Point 3

    Then lrn2fly, duh. If I need to explain anything more, just ask.

    Honestly, when I'm flying I wish for there to be less (enemy) AA, but I understand why they're there, so you don't see me complaining about it. At all other times, though, AA can stay, that's cool with me.


    • Up x 3
  14. Zorlox

    that's been well known for awhile now. it's why they added the extra xp when you damage vehicles. hasn't really helped much sadly. other than major changes to terrain I don't see it getting much better. some parts of hossin look like they'll have some nice areas that may improve the fun for both sides.
    that's assuming we ever even get hossin/cont lattice/resource revamp within the next 5 years.
    • Up x 1
  15. Bortasz

    Because this is Planetside 2. Not Airside 2. This is Multiplayer game so sorry but you have to consider other people.

    Sadly you are right. But I doubt that big tress on Hossin will help with Air vs Ground.
    • Up x 4
  16. Badname707

    Lol, listen to yourself man! You too have to consider other people. Both sides have been considered, and this is the balance of things. There is an air game in planetside, get over it. You can also play it, in fact, you can play all the things. Why wouldn't you want to?

    The trees are going to make a huge difference in the air game. In some locations it's basically impossible to fly larger aircraft at low altitudes, and the leaf cover makes flying an ESF pretty dicey. There will still be A2G, but it won't work like it does everywhere else.
    • Up x 2
  17. Bortasz

    You now try force people to become Pilot to have a chance against other pilots. And I should consider others?
    • Up x 4
  18. Badname707

    Be a pilot, or team up with other AA. You can actually take on just about any individual liberator or ESF (not galaxy) with one MAX or skyguard. You generally won't kill it, but he won't kill you either. You get to stay in the area and he has to leave. That is how G2A works. If G2A kills air, then there is no reason for ESF's, other than to ground pound. Not that they could, what, with all the lethal AA everywhere.

    Yes, I think you should learn to fly. I'm not forcing you to do anything, but if you want to be able to chase down and kill my aircraft, almost guaranteed (aircraft also escape other aircraft sometimes), then you'll have to use something that can keep up.
  19. Bortasz

    Stop reading after this. Sorry, I repeat my self: As infantry I can kill other infantry, and tanks. As tank I kill other tanks and Infantry. Only Air kill Air. And this is problem. Stop forcing me to L2F.
    • Up x 9
  20. Badname707

    Did you actually stop reading there? Because I basically spelt it out in the next second. Anti air kills air more often than air kills anti air. WAYYYYY more often.
    • Up x 1