The TTK never fit the size/quality of the game

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Pie Chasm, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. Nocturnal7x

  2. Posse

    Ping from South America to the East Coast is 150-200 is everything is working correctly, not 500+... I don't know where you expect us people from SA to play right now...
  3. zaspacer

    ==Gampeplay Of Short Time To Kill==

    Infantry and their Shorter TTK weapons do the following:
    1) puts more importance on a players ability to setup an attack (position, distance, timing, what target is doing, etc.) and avoid an opponent's attack setup or running into an opponent on even footing
    2) puts less importance on a players ability to sustain aim and dodge

    Most Infantry guns have Kill Times from ~0.5-0.7 seconds at their weapons preferred engagement range and against a standard Infantry when accuracy is 100%. And most Infantry guns have Magazines that only need from ~15-33% of their capacity to kill when accuracy is 100%. Even with decreased accuracy, the TTK is still fairly quick and most guns don't need to reload when starting with a full Magazine.

    Short TTK puts a lot of focus on playing for the initial advantage in an encounter. And it reduces the importance of a player's skill to perform during the actual shooting.

    Short TTK will also be more sensitive to the affects of Lag and Rendering.

    ==Gampeplay Of Long Time To Kill==

    In contrast, ESF A2A Primary Weapon duels are a good example of Longer TTK:
    1) puts more importance on players ability to sustain aim and dodge
    2) puts less importance on a players ability to setup an attack (position, distance, timing, what target is doing, etc.) and avoid an opponent's attack setup or running into an opponent on even footing

    ESF A2A Primary Weapons have Kill Times from ~1.9-2.4 seconds against another ESF when accuracy is 100%. And ESFs (with fully Certed Magazine Size) need from ~77-95% of their capacity to kill when accuracy is 100%. The TTK is much slower, and decreased accuracy requires reloading which slows the TTK even more.

    Long TTK puts a lot of focus on a player's skill to perform during the actual shooting. And it reduces the importance of getting the initial advantage in the encounter. In 1-on-1 ESF A2A Primary Weapons duels, high skill pilots will usually not lose to low skill pilots, even if the low skill pilot is able to setup the attack.


    A lot of determining which is better for a game comes down to personal preference and which creates the play experience that players enjoy more.

    Shorter TTK encourages a more level playing field between players of different skill levels at aiming and dodging. Though it also rewards players that have higher skill level in setting up attacks.

    It should be noted that modifiers like Nanoweave and Heavy Assault Shields work to slow down TTK, which in turn boosts the importance of aim and dodge skills during combat.

    HALO can group players by "skill level", which makes it much easier to create matches where player skill dominance doesn't factor in. PS2 is an open world where there is no player segregation by skill level, and designers use things Fast TTK (to minimize aim and dodge skill differences) and Radar (to minimize attack setup skills).
    • Up x 1
  4. Posse

    By ability to dodge you mean the ability to strafe and jump? That requires no skill. Bad players don't strafe or jump? Well, that doesn't mean it requires skill to do it. Sustaining aim once you have the target on sights isn't that hard either. On the other hand, situational awareness and constantly getting the jump on others, now, that does require skill.

    And there's a pretty good example of why a longer TTK would be beneficial to worse players, if I get the jump on 2 guys, with a short TTK I can kill the first one before the second one realizes what's going on, making it highly probable that I kill both guys, and well, since I got the jump on them, I clearly deserve it.

    Now, what happens with a longer TTK? The second guy has a lot more time to realize what's going on, in fact he'll turn around and start shooting at me before I finish killng the other guy, so the result would probably be that I'll kill the first guy but die to the second.

    On a 1v1 the TTK is almost irrelevant, yes, the guy who is attacked by surprise may have a better chance of winning, but it's still pretty low.

    The comparison with ESFs makes no sense, completely different gameplay.
    • Up x 1
  5. TheBloodEagle

    I honestly feel the TTK is at a good spot. I don't want to play a typical MMO where we grind down each others health. The only problem is that it doesn't leave much room for variety in weapon damage profiles.
    • Up x 2
  6. Phyr

    I would prefer shorter TTK's.
  7. zaspacer

    Dodge refers simply to any action that reduces damage taken from an opponent during combat.

    Aim refers simply to any action that increases damage to an opponent during combat.

    The test of whether of not these traits have skill levels, is to determine if an equally knowledgeable playerbase performs equally at them (in which case there is no discernible skill distinction), or if some perform considerably better at them than others (in which case there is skill levels involved).

    Again, the test of whether of not these traits have skill levels, is to determine if an equally knowledgeable playerbase performs equally at them (in which case there is no discernible skill distinction), or if some perform considerably better at them than others (in which case there is skill levels involved).

    Only if there is not a skill option for the higher skill player to dodge and aim better than his opponents. If PS2 Infantry combat gameplay is indeed skillless with the playerbase all equally effective at aiming and dodging, then you are right.

    More skilled players can achieve superior results specifically in situations where they can force their actions producing skill advantages on themselvse or the opponents actions producing skill disadvantages on their opponent.

    If combat is skillless as you claim, then the guy attacked by surprise has no chance if the two players are otherwise evenly matched in terms of Loadout, etc. Whoever starts firing first will win. Unless you feel another factor (like luck) influences who can kill quicker?

    Because ESF combat piloting has more skill involved in it than controlling an Infantry in combat?
  8. don

    With longer TTK you wouldn't jump on 2 guys, you would look for a better position where you can take cover and/or outplay them. Or even plan with you squadmates to take them out.

    +1 for longer ttk
    • Up x 1
  9. Posse

    Does it require skill to strafe left and right? No, its just pressing A for some time, then D for some time, and so on, it's ridiculously effective but most people don't use it for some reason (maybe it does require a bit more skill to shoot while strafing than to shoot while standing still on crouching).

    Aiming on the other hand, of course requires skill, but at the ranges most fights are fought, it's not that relevant since it's pretty often hipfiring range. In fact, why do you think most fights are at those ranges? Because it's easy to get close using cover since effective TTKs at long range are ridiculously long.

    There's not much knowledge you need for that, only knowledge of the maps, that comes naturally with some practice, so every BR > 40 (to throw an arbitrary number) should have it already. It requires skill because it requires you to be able to look at both the map and the screen at the same time, to think quickly about the best course of action and also (specially for a LA) good instincts.

    I don't say it's completely skillless, I say it doesn't require that much skill, when I face another HA in a pure 1v1 and I win, I usually do it with less than half my HP (all shields depleted) left, be it against a guy with a KDR of 5 or against a guy with a KDR of 0.8 (If they use the CARV or the SAW, if they use a lower DPS weapon then it's pretty one sided). Of course, I'm always talking about CQC combat (which is what happens most of the time), at mid range aiming does require skill (unless the other guy is not dodging, then it's just point and click lol), and well, at long range it's pure aim that wins. But at CQC it's mostly situational awareness, positioning and reflexes, having a better aim in those situations won't let you win 2 heads-on fights consecutively.

    What I want to say is that situational awareness, positioning, etc, is much more important than aim. And it has to be that way, if I get the jump on 2 guys then it's my merit and I deserve the 2 kills, increasing TTKs would make situational awareness much less important, making it more of a numbers game than it already is. I personally would like TTK a bit shorter than it is right now, in fact, only removing Nanoweave without touching anything else would be enough imo (and it would help balance some things that it unbalances in the process)

    Nope, it's just that the gameplay is completely different, I wouldn't say it requires more or less skill, it's simply different, I don't have a chance in the air against the top pilots, the same way, when I run into them in the ground they have no chance against me.

    Lol, so the answer is outnumbering them? That's exactly what I want to avoid, longer TTKs favor zergs, exactly my point.
    • Up x 1
  10. John_Aitc

    @ZaSpacer - Nice breakdown of the TTK mechanic.

    I am primarily a CQC SMG Infil. I feel like stalking prey and getting an honorable and safe kill shot in the back is being called into question. :D I offer the following:
    • Up x 1
  11. Corporate Thug

    Most people I know that like CoD hate all battlefield games. Battlefield has it's moments and the thing I appreciate the most is that they don't try to make everything accessible to everyone, meaning not everyone will be in a tank or air vehicle, also less spam weapons and the low number of shot guns. SOE tries really hard to make everything so easy. There is an easy mode for every style of play in PS2.
  12. JudgeDeath

    TTK is fine.

    I definetly dont want no nerf shooter garbage where you jump in circles with the enemy guy and spend 2 clips each while trying to chip down the healthbars.
  13. Metalsheep

    I think that the TTK should be longer. Planetside was never a fast paced/fast TTK game. And a game of its size doesn't work well with fast TTKs IMO. Planetside 1's TTK was slow for a reason.

    The amount of random damage you can get coming from almost any direction in this game makes fast TTKs frustrating. Basically dieing out of nowhere and not knowing where or why. There were no Infantry 1-shot weapons (Except for the Boomer), or even 2 shot weapons really. Only Tanks and Liberator Bombs could 1 shot infantrymen. (And a few NC vehicles.)

    It took roughly 15 shots from a normal bullet weapon to kill a REXO soldier, 18 if they used a Medkit. (Which could be used in combat without stopping while shooting.) and even more if they had a Personal Shield Implant or Second Wind. (or the 120 HP cave module) Took 4 shotgun rounds (3 for the Noobhammer which shot more pellets.) And sniper rifles only did 75 damage to infantry reguardless of where they were shot.

    Increasing TTK would definately allow for far more weapon variety and more skilled combat. (Movement and suprise is still important, but the actual firefight should be important as well.)

    Vehicles could take a crap-ton of damage too, one or two AV infantry werent going to kill a Tank easily. But all infantry also had access to the Jammer grenade which froze the vehicles firing mechanism. So it was possible for non-AV players to defend against vehicles.

    Not to mention Latency + HUman Reaction Time makes most encounters near instant death for one side or the other. Instant or OHK deaths are never fun.
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  14. Vastly

    High TTK favors numbers over positioning. Low TTK favors positioning over numbers.
    • Up x 3
  15. Deronok

    This ^. High TTK is for shooters like Unreal tournament where you have lower numbers.
    • Up x 1
  16. Vastly

    Another point is combat range compression. High TTK favors close range combat due to the increased ability to reach cover before dying (also exacerbated by the increased relative effectiveness of close range, low TTK weapons, over longer range, high TTK counterparts).
  17. KnightCole

    TTK is only as long as it is because of LAG!!!! Take away lag and people die in like fractions of a second. When I come upon a lone, stationary soldier in a 0v0 encounter, I kill him so fast I amaze myself. Then movement seems to quadruple TTK.