The TR problem is deeply related to its faction trait

not english mothertongue, bear with me.

take two weapons, A and B

both guns have same bloom, same ttk, same dps at cqc and range combat, same accuracy stats, ADS movement multiplier etc etc they have all same stats, cept these:

weapon A has 200 more rpm than B
weapon B has 50 more damage per bullet
what is better? A or B?

high RoF vs high damage per bullet is matter of taste imho. if we modified the time a target is exposed to fire there would be intervals where you would do more damage with a RoF weapon and intervals where a weapon with more damage per bullet would win. what btw is not matter of taste is:

A will be less accurate. more shots fired means accuracy will generally decrease faster since bloom is expanding more rapidly and the bullets "kick" the barrel upwards more frequently. to keep this balanced it must be compensated giving high RoF weapons less bloom increase and less recoil per bullet (and giving no random left/right shake if the counterparts have not)

A will waste more bullets:

• when you kill someone that is already dead 3 bullets ago cause the server hasn't shown you the kill yet.
• while your reflexes take their time to make you stop firing at your dead target.
• while you switch to one target to another without stopping fire.
• during that little time when you fire those few bullets in the head of an hostile doing no damage cause you are already dead but the server has not yet told you
• during the time the killing blow travels from your barrel to the enemy, followed by wasted bullets.

A will have less spray and pray and suppression capability, chewing the bullets in the mag more rapidly than B.

A is WORSE.

why choose a weapon with all those cons? Are a few more bullets in the mag really enough to compensate for them? and do we really know how many bullets we need in order to do it? and given the increased mag size, why should I use a gun with less accuracy? more misses = more TTK, how does an increased mag compensate for it?

TR may have same pop or even more pop compared to NC and VS, that means nothing. dakka IS fun, and fun things get the players. do they attract strong players too? If you were a pro player deeply inside competition, would you chose a gun that fires where you want it to fire, reproducing with maximum in-game accuracy your trained reflexes, or a gun that fires "pmuch" where you want? do VS, NC and TR have the same % of "strong" players in em? TR being the least chosen faction for Server Smashes should answer this I think.

"A few more bullets"
Since when is a 33% increase considered only "a few"

That's 33 fraggin %

Rate of fire as a faction trait is one of those things that sounds cool in theory, but really isnt

The problem with that theory is that high RoF weapons are actually the dominant weapon type in PS2.

Carnage, Lynx, GD-22, Orion, the VS fast carbines/ARs I can't remember the name of.

Part of the reason for this is how damage tiers, falloff, and nanoweave work.

Nanoweave always increases HTK by 2 bullets, IIRC. Its resist value was selected so that this more or less remains true regardless of weapon, due to rounding to the next whole bullet.

Similarly, weapons within a category will (with a few exceptions) typically fall off a fixed number of damage tiers at range. Each tier corresponds to one bullet. LMGs/ARs are one to two, carbines are two to three, smgs are three to four (the cyclone drops by four tiers for example). By the way, this is why carbines feel weaker than an AR with otherwise identical stats.

Now, if you assume that two weapons with baseline stats would have a similar ttk against a stock soldier, what happens if they both drop 2 damage tiers and the target has nanoweave?

Will the high RoF gun or low RoF gun get those extra 4 shots off first?

I like TR faction trait. Imo the problem is that NC and VS have weapons that fulfill TR's trait too well. Just quoting myself from other thread:

Not really. Depends on situation and balance.

1). Weapon with more damage will have more bloom, for example 143 have 0.05 bloom while 167 have 0.06, your argument about having the same bloom with different damage tier is wrong from the beginning.
Now if you said the same Recoil PER SECOND, or the same Bloom PER SECOND then you may have an argument.

2). 50 more damage is quite meaning less as we have damage tiers that relate to their respective STK (shots to kill). Saying 1 weapon has 1 higher damage tier is better then 50 damage as 50 damage can be 1 less STK or 0.

3). How smooth the recoil also matters, there is certain range for RoF vs Recoil where it is comfortable to control.
For example Orion vs Gauss SPR vertical recoil per second at max fire rate.
-Orion 5 units of vertical recoil per second.
-Gauss SPR 4.62 units of vertical recoil per second.
Now if you take this information, obviously Orion needs a recoil buff or Gauss SPR needs a recoil nerf. Anyone that isn't the most die hard VS only would laugh and think your an idiot.

4). Provide actual numbers, there are so many possibilities of number combinations I can come up with that would favour 1 or the other.

TR weapons ARE less accurate than the others, dont try to sell me that's not correct lol. developers themselves thought that less accuracy would compensate for more RoF and more ammos, and that was not the right choice to me. accuracy is the most important stat because it directly affects TTK, and it's not something you can compensate with 33% more ammo.

if recoil would be calculated by the game in recoil per time spent firing, instead of recoil per bullets, we would have no problem here cause the recoil would be the same regardless of RoF, which is sadly not the case.

As a die heard Terran, I can see the OP's point. Theoretical DPS based on bullet damage and rate of fire are effectively wrong every single time. You have to account general accuracy stats too. But accuracy isn't a static thing. You don't hit one bullet out of every five you fire when your accuracy is 20%. Sometimes you hit all five, sometimes you miss twenty before getting a ten hit streak.

I dread the day when all people say about TR is that we should have only 125 damage weapons with high fire rates because we will be worse off. If not because our weapons will be bad compared to some others, then because they'd be boring beyond comprehension at the other end.

Diversity within factions is something that needs to exist. TR needs high tier, low RoF weapons just because diversity. Same for NC having lower damage higher fire rate weapons. I find the serpent and GD-7F to be just obnoxious weapons. That need tweaks. But I see the reasons for their existence. Maybe give them 20 round magazines? I mean, if it "works" for out T4 AMP, why not there? Super high burst damage, but enjoy them reloads.
EDIT: Also common sense dictates that armies would maintain a varied arsenal as some situations prefer some weapon over others. So all TR weapons being DAKKA, makes zero sense considering they are a military that goes back... half a millennium. You'd expect the TR to have the most diverse arsenal of the empires. But that joy goes to the VS.

accuracy is not static but the more your gun have of it the more it will hit, considering same skill level.

I main NC and when I play TR it feels just awful. The recoil on the guns is pathetic compare to the VS and NC guns. I don't think that the high RoF trait is the problem I think its more of the punishment inflicted on you for having the high rate of fire. The orion and the SV-88 are an example of a high rate of fire weapon with good accuracy. Same goes with the Carnage. I just feel like TR get kinda screwed with the accuracy punishment.

Do you know the recoil value for each weapon, please provide an example of what your talking about cause I don't think you know what your talking about, recoil values are directly related to their RoF, Damage tier, or weapon role.

The thing with a players accuracy is that they shoot to a certain confindence in accuracy. Having a higher accuracy with a shotgun over a sniper rifle doesn't indicate that the shotgun is better at range or even more accurate when using the weapon. It just show that a player with a shotgun will hold on their fire until they are rather certain they will hit.

I find that TR's low accuracy on their weapons doesn't really make 10 more rounds worth it. Having 10 more rounds is worth having a longer reload (which TR also has) but not a decrease in accuracy. I'd rather have a 20 mag size weapon with virtually no recoil, bloom, and CoF that reloads nearly instantly.

the more accurate one will, at least in high skill competitive play

All them extra bullets are great.. if you get to use them.

Get a gauss saw, compare the upwards kick to any other weapon in the game.
Plus more bullets means you're more likely to hit. TR already have the highest DPS which means that even if you miss a bullet or two you will still outDPS a hard-hitting NC gun. But if you miss one or two bullets from an NC gun like gauss saw, that is a considerable ammount of damage gone and a much longer TTK

You have 33% more ammo in a mag, why would you care? Also some of the NC guns have a crazy reload time, Gauss Saw having the longest reload of all the guns in the game (6,5 sec) so TR guns can control lanes more efficiently by being active more often and for longer.

That's a lie. Gauss saws supression capabilities are very low. It's a precision weapon, not a "spray and pray" gun. In supression you want lots of bullets constantly flying over an enemies head to force him to stay behind cover. So saying that NC guns are better at supression is like saying that a sniper rifle is better at supression than an LMG.

No, it's not a matter of taste, it's a matter of playstyle. TR weapons are generaly better in CQC with the insane ammount of bullets per second, huge DPS and a better hipfire while NC weapons outperform TR guns at longer ranges by burst-firing with pin-point initial accuracy,higher velocity and a lower damage drop off. So TR mid-short ranges, NC long-mid ranges

I am a chronic reloader. If I only have 39 bullets left in my T5 AMC I

must reload it.

I never get to see what those ten extra bullets look like.

I'm not bashing any faction nor calling for nerf/buffs, but still:

recoil per bullet means little, you have to consider that a gun that has a lot recoil but has less RoF can be way easier to control than a weapon with far less recoil per bullet but much higher RoF. that said, the saw has pmuch big recoil.

no, it means you're more likely to hit AND miss, and if you have less accuracy, then you are more likely to miss.

dunno who told you that TR has highest dps, gauss saw and carv have same ttk last time I checked. nc has the best ttk on SMGs and carbines (paired with vs on the latter), TR rule only in the assault rifle couterpart.

giving the lasher 30 bullets in the mag and 1 second reload would not increase its suppression performance.
the reason why the saw has that crazy amount of reload time is because it's the 100-bullets-in-a-mag-LMG that can keep firing for the most time without the need to reload, having same ttk as orion or carv.
lasher can keep fire for longer even if not ex-magd (probably) but it is so because its ttk is way higher.

TR should have low recoil, good initial accuracy, high bloom. Get all the good RoF weapons, lowish damage, high fall off
NC should get heavy recoil, moderate initial accuracy, low bloom. Slow RoF weapons, high damage, low fall off.
VS should be low recoil, good accuracy, good bloom. Moderate RoF, Low damage, low fall off

VS get easy to handle guns with good bloom and stuff, but they deal very low damage per shot, made up with by extreme accuracy.
NC get hard to handle guns, very punchy with low bloom rate so their high damage per shot can still be put on target, but high recoil requiring good trigger discipline and proper ability to counter recoil.
TR get low recoil, good initial accuracy with high bloom so that they can put a good burst into the target before bloom throws off the gun, requiring you to stop to reacquire. They do best in close, and with good trigger discipline, they can do ok at distance.

This. Try getting a skilled infantry player to roll TR first after showing them the faction traits. Its why TR was the last faction I finally decided to play. There is a reason the vast majority of high end/elite outfits and players are not TR, at least as a primary. The weapons just aren't rewarding like a hard hitting and accurate NC or the low recoil good mobility weapons of VS. If you were a skilled player just coming to the game you aren't going to ever pick high RoF bad accuracy over the other options on the table. Having accuracy or a lack of accuracy as a faction trait to begin with sucks and feels like an extremely poor and dated design. It doesn't really effect me anymore as I have ditched my TR after BR 60 as a free to play and doubt I will play him ever again. Back to NC and VS for me, back to rewarding infantry weapons and 'faction traits' that don't suck.

They only have the same TTK at a very specific point in the damage curve, which is maximum possible damage with no mitigation.

This almost never actually occurs in game. For one thing, many infantry players wear nanoweave. For another, most LMG engagements take place outside of 10m, but close enough that the SAW's ability to "plink" with single-shots is not relevant.

This means in general, the SAW and CARV can both expect to need 3 bullets beyond their "ideal" HTK. So which one gets those 3 bullets out first? The 500 RPM SAW or the 750 RPM CARV? Not to mention that on the tail-end of a gunfight, the SAW's harsh CoF bloom has significantly reduced any initial accuracy advantage it may have had.

Then if you go further and have an HA pop NMG, the SAW needs an additional 4 bullets (past 10m) while the CARV needs 5. So once they go past their equivalence point the SAW needs a total of 7 additional bullets, the CARV needs 8.

Obviously, shooting 14% more bullets is a trivial task when you have 50% more RoF. By the time the SAW fires its sixth bullet, the CARV will have already fired 9 (and killed the SAW user, with room to miss a shot).