The State Of The Sovereignty

Enough is enough.

GU08 is the next nail in the coffin for the Vanu Sovereignty, but it is merely the latest in a long line of changes that have nerfed the VS nearly into the ground. This thread is intended to put some of the many nerfs the VS have received into perspective, in the hope of helping the developers to see just how significant a problem this is becoming.

Let's start with the VS empire info on the PS2 'Empires' page:

'The Vanu Sovereignty is extremely advanced, employing powerful alien technology on the battlefield.'

'Extremely advanced'. 'Powerful alien technology.' Hold those thoughts while we examine a few specifics.



1. The Saron (or, why a once justifiable nerf is now un-justifiable):

Back in beta, the Saron was a beast of a weapon, and was arguably a bit too powerful. Since release, it has received a 0.25 second fire-delay and one of the slowest projectile speeds in the game. Leaving aside the fact that this is a laser weapon and should, in theory be nearly instantaneous - the Saron was nerfed because it was possible to snipe the occasional (very stupid) ESF out of the sky, and there was tons of QQ.

Fine, you might say - and I agree. The Saron should not be sniping ESFs out of the air. However, since the Saron was nerfed, the other two MBTs have received hefty buffs to their main cannon velocity. It is now quite common for Prowlers and Vanguards to snipe aircraft out of the sky with a single shot. It's happened to me more times than I can count - partly because I'm not that great a pilot - but the point of contention is this:

IF IT IS OK FOR THE VANGUARD AND PROWLER TO HAVE WEAPON VELOCITIES THAT CAN ACCURATELY HIT AIRCRAFT, THEN THE VS SHOULD ALSO HAVE ACCESS TO COMPARABLE VELOCITIES. It is impossible to hit air with any of the Magrider main cannons due to their slow velocity, unless the aircraft in question has landed, and even in the Saron's heyday, you had to be very lucky (or the pilot be real dumb) to land a hit. I think I managed it twice in months of regular Mag use.

It's important to note here that I don't think the Saron should be viable as an anti-air weapon. I am using the above to illustrate why the Saron should receive both projectile velocity buffs and the removal of the fire delay. If a Prowler turret is fast enough to snipe air, then I want the Saron to become a useful weapon again and receive velocity buffs & the removal of the fire delay, since the main reason for its nerfing is now on every default Van and Prowler pulled on Auraxis.

This same logic is applicable to many other VS weapons. The Hailstorm, for example, is the slowest of the three ESF rotary cannons - purportedly due to the lack of drop making it possible to snipe infantry - but in practice, the other two weapons snipe infantry just fine (and frequently do), while our rotary becomes the least useful in air-to-air combat due to the massive lead required.

Put simply: buffs and nerfs to VS tanks/etc need to be taken in consideration with the evolving state of the game, not made once and forgotten until the community QQs enough to get it noticed. The Saron & Hailstorm, as well as others, should be buffed to bring them up to par with the current weapon line up of the other two factions.



2. Bullet Drop & Agility (or, the fallacy of inconsistent faction traits):

All VS and most of the TR & NC (or at least, those with any sense) have long since realised that 'no bullet drop' and 'agility' are particularly nebulous concepts with little to no practical application on the battlefields of Auraxis. Lack of bullet drop in particular is often cited as the reason behind many of the over-nerfs the Vanu receive: the Saron must have slow velocity because it has no bullet drop, so must the Hailstorm, and so on.

Out of all the weapons in the current (pre-GU08) Vanu armoury, only two of them actually make use of the 'no bullet drop' trait: the Saron, and the Lancer. Every other weapon, without exception, either actually HAS bullet drop (all the weapons that it would be useful on: Snipers, longer ranged MBT weapons etc), or has no drop but never makes use of it (most infantry weapons).

This, as you may have realised, is pretty damn stupid. Our 'advanced alien technology' can't even fire straight? Or does it just mysteriously stop working when there is a balance concern? The TR's large clips and high ROF apply across the board for all TR weapons, likewise the NC trait of high bullet damage and low COF applies across the board to all NC weapons. Only the Vanu trait is inconsistently applied.

No bullet drop should be applied to all VS weapons (where appropriate) across the board, as the other two traits are. Magrider driver-cannons and other existing arcing projectiles can remain as they are, but give us no bullet drop somewhere it would actually count. No-drop snipers and other long-ranged weapons would turn no bullet drop into a trait that the VS could actually be proud of, as well as giving us some much needed uniqueness.

Agility as a 'faction trait' is even worse than the inconsistent 'no bullet drop'. The Magrider was once the most agile tank, and way back in the game's infancy it could still be considered an advantage. That is no longer the case. Proliferation of lock-on and guided AV (all lock ons, Pheonix, and the new NC MAX AV weapons) have all but eliminated 'agility' as a deciding factor in any engagement - the Mag must now sacrifice the Magburner (i.e. the main source of agility) to fit Smoke Launchers to have any hope of surviving an engagement.

Then add the MBT torque buff from a few updates back. Now Prowlers and Vanguards are arguably as agile, if not more so in many cases than even the pre-nerf Magrider, making it possible to dodge Saron fire even at close range. The only area in which 'agility' can still be considered an advantage is in high-ADS speed infantry weapons, and even that is pushing it when the other two factions have weapons with similar ADS speeds, should they choose to use them.



3. The new MAX weapons & ZOE:

The cause of this post, and probably the most recent example of VS getting the weakest options when updates occur. Nearly all the feedback given about both the ZOE module and the new Vortex pseudo-Lancer has been negative, but they went ahead with both of them regardless.

Of the three faction MAX abilities, the ZOE module is the only one with a disadvantage that cannot be negated through skill or smart positioning. The armour-reduction directly contradicts the main purpose of a MAX - to be a man-sized tank used when full-size tanks are prohibited by the environment. The ZOE module is the only ability that actually makes a MAX weaker than it already is, and the agility boost is almost an irrelevance - in open ground, MAX will still be slaughtered no matter how fast they move, and in a close-range scenario you want to be tanking as much damage as possible, not making yourself weaker.

As for the Vortex, well... Nobody wanted another Lancer. There were all sorts of cool suggestions being thrown around, but we get the least-dev-time option - as usual - because the designers can't think of anything more interesting than something that already exists. Both the Vortex and ZOE are dull, uninspiring, and in the ZOE module's case, outright worse than what we have now. Same goes for the Comet, which my outfit members now tell me is horrible to use. In terms of damage output, the Vortex is reportedly even worse than the Lancer - a fact which beggars all belief.



4. The problem, and the solution:

Actually, it's two problems, and there is no easy solution.

The first issue is simple: VS faction traits applied inconsistently make for a **** faction trait overall. Either give us no bullet drop across the board, or replace it with something else entirely. Ditto agility - it needs to be actually useful, which in a world of lock-on and guided AV will mean being really agile, or be changed for something else.

The second issue is more of a complex one, and it stems from the simple fact that the developers aren't really sure what to do with the VS. The other two traits are easy to design for - more damage, or bigger clips/ROF, but the VS consistently end up at the bottom of the pile because our 'cool new stuff' requires more creative effort than adding bigger clips or more bullet damage. Where are our Damage-Over-Time laser weapons? Where is our 'advanced alien technology'? If the best SOE can come up with is a floaty tank and purple bullets, then we've got problems.

These issues combine to make the VS a less than attractive choice as of the current state of play. VS populations got a little boost from the damage-degradation removal, bringing our infantry weapons up to par with the other two - but that tiny boost is not enough. The above issues make VS anything from mildly unpleasant to outright irritating to play depending on the scenario, and GU08 is going to make things a hell of a lot worse.

With GU08 come the MAX abilities, and the new AV weapons. In both cases, NC & TR weapons and abilities are superior to the VS abilities and weapons. A new player to the game, who upon starting tries out all three empires to see which he/she prefers, will almost certainly settle on one of the two empires that have:

Consistent faction traits.
Good weapons.
Good vehicles.

Currently, the Vanu have weaker tanks, weaker vehicle weapons, weaker MAX abilities, and a shedload less imagination being put into their design than the other two factions. About the only thing we have left going for us is decent-ish infantry weapons, and ironically in that area, our only useful faction trait is non-existent.


The solution? Vanu players need some love. At the very least we deserve a consistent implementation of our faction traits, and another balance pass on our vehicle weapons, which currently are woefully inadequate. Until these things happen, VS will always remain underpopulated. Playing as the 'underdog' is only fun for so long, and each update that is released brings our morale lower and lower. The best thing for the VS coming out of GU08 is an NS vehicle, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is ******* shameful.

How does avoiding lockdown negative require skill but the ZOE does not? The TR Max cant move. Through prepositioning? Skillfully standing in one spot?

The ZOE is gonna be sick when used skillfully.

As for the Saron...no secondary is good at anti air. The Vulcan got nerfed and the enforcer has to hit an ESF three times to kill it. The Saron is fine. Perhaps the magrider main gun needs help. Boosting the Saron is not the cure. The magrider overall is decent is the best at surviving infantry attacks by a long shot and infantry is the main threat to tanks.

If its lacking in tank v tank that may require main gun buffs not secondary guns.

I will grant the Vortex seems weak right now and the no bullet drop is erratically applied. That is whack.

I'm glad you highlighted this, as I'm not sure it's clear in the OP. I don't think the Saron, or any tank weapon, should be able to snipe air out of the sky. The point I am making is that the air-sniping is why the Saron was so heavily nerfed, and yet now air-sniping is perfectly possible with both Prowler and Vanguard weapons. The justification for nerfing the Saron now exists on every other MBT in the game, whether default or heavily certed, therefore it should be reverted back nearer to its original state.

You're right that a better way to improve tank-v-tank might be to look at the main cannons, but Magrider driver weapons are very slow, arcing projectiles - it would be easier, and make more sense, to return the Saron's projectile speed and remove the fire-delay.


Edit: Almost forgot your original point. Smart positioning is exactly what it sounds like. Yes lockdown makes you stationary, but it also buffs defence and weaponry. So you'll use lockdown in defensive situations, you'll position in a corner at the top of a staircase and rain grounder fire down on attackers, etc. Ditto the NC shield - you'll use it when it's appropriate.

With ZOE, you're going to want to be using it when you're in combat - but with TTKs (even on MAXes) as low as they are, no one in their right mind is going to choose an ability that makes them weaker going into a heavy firefight.

With the other two, you can negate the downsides with a little thought & effort. With ZOE, you can't - not without several pocket engineers, making it a poor tradeoff in comparison to the other two.

Hope that clears it up!

It was a great post even if I disagree mainly on your MBT points. The Saron can easily go back to being a total tear jerker with a buff. I still think its the main gun that is lacking as its the main gun on the other that punishes air not secondaries. Seems weird to have one MBT that has a better secondary than primary (general sense not just ain't air).

As for the ZOE its the thing you pop when you get the drop on someone or a group. Its a hit and run type ability and will work very well with bursters and anti tank weapons since you wont always be taking fire when using such weapons. Actual game play will show if I'm totally off my rocker here. Heck when plunking at long range you may actually do more than tickle people...when they can only tickle back.

Or not. I cant tell yet from test. Bio dome fights will be interesting when it hits.

All fair points, though I think Badname82 is right when he says the disparity between MBTs should be addressed by altering the Mag's main guns, not necessarily the Saron (though personally I do think the Saron needs some love. Think tank-mounted Lancer =] Honestly I think MBT secondaries are underwhelming in general, but that's just me). But another reason for the Saron nerf was to make it distinct from the Enforcer and the Halberd, both of which were flat-out inferior to the Saron after release. Currently the Enforcer just seems more effective in general thanks to responsiveness (lack of firing delay) and significantly faster projectile speed, but the Saron can still do what the other two cannot: snipe enemy armor at extreme distances, albeit not as effectively as it used to. But that's a good thing I think.

This line stuck out to me immediately, and I believe it sums up what a LOT of players have been feeling, but have been unable to articulate quite so eloquently. ARE YOU LISTENING, HIGBY?

Well at this point it's kind of moot. They pulled all the ES max abilities from GU08 for more tuning. Seems to me like the devs agree that there's still a disparity here.

no bullet drop is what you said, just a stupid faction train to begin with. I get headaches from how ignorant people can be on this forum. "Im done playing PS2, the VS having their damage at range buffed when they already have no bullet drop was the last straw"

I dont normal play a max so i never thought about how silly the ZOE is. anyways I read the whole post and I say nice post. 9/10

I didn't see any VS nerfs in the patch notes, did you?

Thanks all posters so far, especially for being so reasonable. I genuinely appreciate it

@ Badname - hit & run is how I'm envisioning using ZOE, if I use it at all. I just can't escape the thought that making a MAX weaker is massively counter-productive, but as you say, we'll see when they get released. I'm very glad they've been pulled from GU08, as hopefully it'll provide some time to turn ZOE into something useful

@iRhuel - another to mention the Mag's driver weapons. You and Badname do make a good point - the current Magrider driver weapons feel pretty horrible, all floaty and with no weight to them. It's a valid line of investigation - how would the Mag's driver cannons be buffed to feel as good as the TR/NC weapons?

I suppose I focused on the Saron so heavily because it's the only Magrider weapon that, to me at least, feels like 'a real gun', and because it previously had functionality that is now present on the other two MBTs (high accuracy/high projectile speed). There's definitely a case to be made for rebalancing the Mag driver weapons as well, that's for sure - so thanks for bringing it up!


Edit: Annoyingly I can't edit the OP - I didn't realise the MAX abilities had been pulled from GU08 when writing this. All still applies with the exception of the ZOE module comments, which remain accurate to the data on the test server at the time of posting. This may change in future and if it does, I will gladly re-evaluate my opinion of the module.

No, I didn't. Good thing this post doesn't mention any VS-specific nerfs in GU08, isn't it?

This post is meant to cover previous VS balance passes and the general imbalance of faction traits inconsistently applied. Feel free to post something more constructive after reading the OP, and thanks for posting.

I don't think the Saron ever could OHK an ESF? When I get hit by one its annoying but hardly bad.

The current Vanguard HEAT and AP rounds do this, and it seems everyone other Vanguard out there is capable of this, ie. not only super skilled Vanguard drivers.

On the ZOE, flak and kinetic armor is being buffed, so that in itself could make up for the loss of durability. Of course you have to take your pick of the poison, ie. you can't use both at the same time. Also the TR ability makes the MAX into a sitting duck, so its really just about as bad as becoming more vulnerable, only in a different manner.

Either way, its the NC MAX that gets the fun new toy in Ravens, not TR or VS. I think the Vortex is a bad design, so little thought, nothing more than a Lancer.

How about they mount the magrider main gun higher and give it a flash like aiming ability.

Don't expect it to last long with all the ******* on this forum, so bask in it while it lasts.

From what I remember from the PTS, the speed increase alone from ZOE was SIGNIFICANT. As in Charge speeds while sprinting. Even the standard run speed felt close to that of any other infantry. That's a big deal for maxes, which regularly lack in such... agility (I know you hate that word, but that's exactly what ZOE gives you). It means actually being able to dodge tank shells while using AT MAX weaponry, being able to flank open positions and cross terrain in a way that the other two simply are incapable of. I didn't get a chance to use it in a combat setting, so I don't know how much more it increases incoming damage or outgoing damage (none from my VR tests), so it remains to be seen whether or not that added mobility is worth it.

Easiest fix would be to just boost mag main gun projectile speed, like the other two. But then we run into the problem of agility (strafing) playing less of a part in tank battles, which I think is bad. Honestly I feel like they should just lower projectile speeds for the Van and Prowler back to where they were pre-buff, since they both already do more flat-out damage than a mag, and take less damage (in the case of the Van). Mag mobility in general seems like a joke thanks to ridiculously high projectile velocities, and I would go so far as to as to say that the Mag is the least effective of the three in a close-range tank duel thanks to strafing counting for **** against all but the most incompetent of gunners. In larger battles with multiple armor pieces and AT infantry, the Mag is by far the worst, thanks to its fixed gun destroying one's situational awareness, which is a prerequisite to taking advantage of agility on the battlefield - you can't respond properly to threats if you can't even turn to see them without exposing your weak broadside. In both 1v1 tank duels and larger battles I vastly prefer my Van.

There's the problem, then - the Saron feels like the mag's main gun. Right now I think the Saron is the Mag's ONLY saving grace. That needs to change, because it requires Mags to be fully crewed just to be competitive, whereas Prowlers and Vans are fully capable solo.

Even Prowler Armor Piercing will not kill an ESF

That's because the prowler fires 2 shots dealing less damage individually. The Vanguard stock gun and AP gun both 1-shot any ESF

COF and bloom are far more important to overall accuracy than bullet drop (which is easily countered by a player's aim)

You guys are not at any bloom, or COF disadvantage for all I know.

However, you do have both .03 COF, .06 bloom weapons, and .1, .05 bloom weapons in every weapon category.


That isn't something you should take for granted.

Following the OP logic, the TR should get nuclear bombs and blow everyone up. After all, they are the only real army here

http://imgur.com/a/CqMzG#0
way cooler than what we got

Nice post! Agree on all points.