The Reaver hitbix is so big -_-.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. ZeroErrorz

    ╔═════════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ════════════════╗
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Repost this if ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    ~ ~ ~ ~ you are a beautiful strong black reaver~ ~ ~
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ who don’t need no resizing ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    ╚═════════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ════════════════╝
  2. Scr1nRusher

    it is oversized. by a bit.

    They could just make the reaver engines smaller.
  3. Hosp

    I think the picture was more geared toward showing a way to reduce the Reaver's hitbox (by removing the wings) than it was to show actual hitbox area. The Boxes are just there to show overall dimensions.

    Size of aircraft also determines how easy it is to hit with flak. Flak is a (albeit small) proximity munition. So a smaller hitbox (or less hit able parts sticking out) make it less likely that flak will do any damage to a target. Something sticking out, like the Mossy Tail or Reaver Wings, make those aircraft easier for near misses to detonate the flak. However, the Mossy is pretty small to begin with compared to the flying brick.
  4. AxGX

    It would be better to debunk all those myths that's been flying around the reaver:
    1. It does not have larger afterburner capacity (it had but it was made so all ESF have the same capacity shortly after release).
    2. It does not have larger healthpool nor restistance to projectiles.
    3. Reaver was able to perform more advanced manoeuvres thanks to "dragging" (ESF physics "fixed" since around GU6) and it was its advantage.
    4. Skip to GU11 all ESF guns became standardized on all factions without compensating for hitbox (lower TTK only in perfect scenario which rarely happens).
    5. Vortek Rotary Mag size upgrade was nerfed from +10 to +8 without cert refunding.
    6. Reverse manoeuvre nerfed due to "hover speed cap" (introduced in GU12, but i'm not sure).
    7. Increased fuel drain for hover mode + afterburner since GU12 makes reaver afterburner advantage weaker.
    8. Reaver loses most speed while turning out off all 3 ESF making reaver feel more sluggish and difficult to perform evasive manoeuvres (reaver = 90, mossie = 70 but has faster acceleration and cruise speed to compensate, scythe = 42).
    • Up x 1
  5. Snow Sheltie

    Reavers have the biggest disadvantage in a head-on helicopter-style battle because it is much easier to hit than both the Mosquito and the Scythe. The tidbit of the reaver having the best vertical thrust is nullified by how easy it is to hit a reaver facing towards you.
  6. Akaan

    Add to that that the Reaver does not actually have a stronger vertical thrust as it is often said on the forums. All it does have is a slightly faster afterburner speed in hover mode (for all of a whopping second).

    Don't believe me? Go ahead, test it in VR. Grab an ESF and only press space. Don't afterburn, stay in hover mode. Check their speed. You'll see.
  7. Wizz

    With around 2000 spread across mossie, scythe, and reaver. I disagree.
    • Up x 1
  8. Scr1nRusher

    ^ proof Wizz?
  9. Gleerok

    I don't have half of that time total Mossie + Reaver + Scythe, but I've flown all 3, obviously. Your flight time is indeed amazing.

    Your time is amazing, that is undeniable, and its also valid to cite it (as I did) to make it clear that we are not discussing something we know nothing about. But we have to consider that fight time becomes a flat number after certain amount. I came across pilots with more than double my flight time (when I had much less) and I won easily, and many pilots came across me with much less flight hours and destroyed me the same way.

    About the shape: Coming from someone focused on the Scythe (I see you are Future Crew) don't you think its your interest to keep shapes unchanged ? I've heard from the mouths of several ESF specialized players that the Scythe outperforms the others in controlled duels (and consequently, during normal battles) due to:

    1 - Flattest shape of all 3 ESFs
    2 - Highest bullet velocity (which also means less relative drop), despite the lower damage, we all know that bullet speed and consequently, the accuracy it provides, matters the most in ESF fights.
    3 - Best Cockpit in terms of field of view.

    Scythes have also won most (if not all) previous ESF tournaments, and the biggest part of entrants were Mossy pilots. -> This is far from a uniform data.

    Personally, the relevancy comes at this:

    First of all, the shape. Whenever I fight a reaver I feel it, Reavers are ridiculously easier to hit no matter your position relative to theirs. Scythes on the other hand can only by hit with the same consistency if you are positioned towards the direct top or bottom, which only happens when the enemy is off-guard or maneuvering recklessly.

    Second: The bullet speed. This is useless if the Pilot is not good enough. But I can't stress enough that, hypothetically, if we get 2 pilots with similar skill ceiling and put them to fight 10 times in each mode:

    Mode 1 - Pilot A (Reaver) vs Pilot B (Scythe)
    Mode 2 - Pilot B (Reaver) vs Pilot A (Scythe)

    The Scythe has a much higher chance of coming on top because of the larger hitbox of the reaver and smaller hitbox of its own, and superior bullet speed (consequently accuracy).

    If anyone pulls out that test, this will be very interesting :p.

    On my view, all 3 ESFs shapes should be reviewed. Parity should be promoted to another level. Game experience has showed this matters much more beyond aesthetics, its influence in gameplay is not uncommonly decisive.
    • Up x 1
  10. Herby20

    About 500 hours spent in a Mossy, 50-60 spent between the other two.

    Cheecho originally played on Waterson. Both Reavers and Mossies if I am correct.

    The cockpit is meaningless really. The shape and bullet velocities are both a plus, but the Reaver's straight difference in damage is often overlooked, especially if the Reaver can get close enough to make the shapes of each ESF meaningless.

    There was one recently won by a Reaver (Rguitar). The Auraxian Pilots Guild, which is a site for pilots, has had tournaments in the past featuring mostly Mattherson pilots as well as some from Waterson and Connery. The Scythe has won one, the rest were won by Reaver pilots. The current "champ" of the site is a Reaver pilot, as was the previous one (this is a recent thing). I haven't noticed any particular discrepancy in which ESF pilots have chosen to use.

    Heavily disagree. Is the Scythe, and to a lesser extent the Mosquito, harder to hit from the front? Yes. But the difference isn't so large that you need to be hitting the top of a Scythe to get a similar hitbox. That is a gross exaggeration of the frontal hitbox of a Reaver.

    Also disagree. The ESFs are different enough that bullet velocity alone isn't going to be the judge of winner versus loser. Vertical hover speed, forced descent speed, speed loss in turns, etc all matter as well and don't seem to be brought up often by the people who demand changes for the Reaver hitbox, or any ESF changes in general.

    Ignoring all other traits in favor of changing hitbox sizes would throw away what many of the more experienced pilots think is very close to a well balanced air game (in terms of ESF vs ESF).
  11. TheBand1t

    Using racer 3 on all of them, in v-thrust, no burner with only space bar:

    Mossie 80-82
    Scythe 88-90
    Reaver 114-116

    for comparisons sake, the mossie has 120 in v-thrust using Hover 3, a scythe 125, and a reaver something around 150.

    Stop talking about **** you have no idea about, thanks

    are you actually questioning cheech's flight hours?


    Oh, and if you think 'controlled duels' and 'normal battles' are the same thing, you're gravely wrong
    • Up x 5
  12. Pixelshader

    You got it all backwards, it has a faster non ab vthrust that is so apparent you can feel it without even measuring it, and you would see it immediately if you did your own test.

    What it doesn't have is more powerful afterburner vthrust, which is negligibly weaker than the other two.
  13. DrSpazzinator

    I'm not going to say it's in a bad place, but i don't think that your killstreak is the best evidence for this. I think the reaver doesn't need a change, but the mossie needs its rotary back and the velocity on the scythe's guns could be brought in line with the other fighters.

    Unrelated, but would also like to see an Ammo capacity buff for the rotaries (not major, but about 30% perhaps)

    If you went against yourself in a scythe while you were in a reaver, it is likely that the scythe would win the majority of the time.
  14. Wizz

    I'm in future crew yes, but check when the toon was made. I didn't just start playing the game in December. I had a BR 86 NC (waterson - cheecho) + whatever caniamkitten adds to that. I've also got a BR 94 TR (waterson-cheechisanoptree) + whatever Ieathotdogs / Ilovecalopix adds to that. Honestly, this high of a BR scythe is my newest way into the game.

    While it's undeniable the scythe has a large advantage in a 1v1 fight I'm sorry to say that is where the advantage ends. Whoever told you that extends to group fights is completely wrong and has no idea what they are talking about. I've seen it proven many times over on waterson and community clash that air dominance is easiest in a reaver. Even mossies conquer the scythe in group air fights. FCRW would regularly do mock air scrims placing our aces on VS And still often lose to the less experienced mossies.

    Winning 1v1's in a reaver is easily done against mosquitos, and can be done against scythes although it requires a fair bit of skill (rguitar in the recent ESF tournament). Time to be serious though.. How often do fair 1v1 duels happen on live? Almost never. The only 100% fair duel I've had on connery was last week when pinkvoid and I called off our truce to do a duel. Being friends I didn't jump him, but instead did the traditional pass. Other than that one fight in my months on connery I've either had the jump on someone, been jumped, been outnumbered, or has the enemy out numbered. If I win those fights it's because I can shoot and I can move. I have equal experiences whether I'm in my reaver, mossie, or scythe.

    Changing hit boxes will only destroy balance for ESF's. If the reaver gets a smaller hit box and their rotaries receive no changes do you have any idea how over powered the reaver would be? I don't think the problem is the hit box as much as it is the reaver being the hardest ESF to learn to shoot with. People give up before really giving an effort to learn.

    Considering when I played the game on steam I had racked up around 1,000 hours before I ever moved to TR, and since then I've gathered two BR 94's on top of my then BR 80ish NC along with multiple alts... And my time in beta... I've been around for awhile.

    In a 1v1? Of course. Sadly, it's idiotic to balance around that. If I 2v2, 3v3' etc. you would no doubt see the number or wins and loses evening out to a point that it could go either way depending on how I was playing.
    • Up x 1
  15. Gleerok

    The cockpit has been pointed out as a minor advantage not unilaterally by me, but reiterated by other players too (which I can not prove nor give names) but I wouldn't be pointing out if it wasn't true that people have indeed pointed that out. It is not extremely relevant, of course not, but it is mentioned (I'm sure I've seen it in tutorial videos and such).

    Is not size a trait itself?

    Did devs think about Hitbox size when they designed vehicles? I think its a side effect of aesthetics, personally. It would be nice if someone brought up official statement on whether hitboxes (ES vehicles) are intentional or a design side-effect.

    Traits are largely concentrated on stats and weapons, is there a point in even keeping hitboxes different just for the sake of giving one vehicle a small advantage or shortcoming ? I think its kind of unfair, to promote balancing on a field faction traits in weapons and stats (mobility, etc) don't touch.

    As for your other arguments and the tournament stats: Well, thats undeniable. I have nothing to say against that other than players (even VS ones) have several times told me that the Scythe is superior. I will not give names or cite comments, they have to come and post for themselves.
  16. Gleerok

    Ok, we all know 1vs1 fights almost never happen in actual battle, but are the references taken from them completely dispensable when comparing the aircraft? Nobody survives 1vsGroup anyways. I've seen ~6 mossies versus +~10 reavers and the mossies won with a few casualties, but never seen 2 mossies versus ~+10 reavers winning, or even 1 versus 3~4, in most cases, when the pilots are experienced in both sides, its insta-death no matter the kind of aircraft.

    Your other points are valid and I even agree with some in your post, but I disagree that

    "Changing hit boxes will only destroy balance for ESF's"

    Well, we don't even know if hitboxes were intentional or a side-effect of aesthetics, and if anyone finds an official statement on this please share, I'm interested. Nonetheless, I'm pro "neutralizing" all hitbox differences in ES vehicles, perhaps specifically aircraft. ES traits should be limited to: weapons, stats and aesthetics without affecting the actual area each vehicle fills in physical space, giving them the same "chance" of landing bullets. I don't see any of the aircraft becoming OP or UP with a completely neutral hitbox size on all aircraft, I simply don't see how and why that would happen.
  17. Wizz

    Okay, I forgot to add that I was also thebloobaron on mattherson NC. Another BR 40-50 toon. Did you not watch the community clash for DA vs FCRW? Whoever was VS lost air dominance immediately. Scythes are very freaking bad at group fighting. Ask any experienced pilot who has engaged in large air fights. The scythe just doesn't cut it unless the pilots are vastly more skilled than the enemy.

    Now... If you can't figure out how normalizing hit boxes would ruin balance. You just need to please stop posting here. At this very moment ESF are very balanced (minus the mossie which needs a freaking buff that is better than 5 more bullets imo, but thank god they at least got one). If you were to make the reaver as hard to hit as a scythe and made them 1v1 the reaver would win 100% of the time with pilots of equal skill. Why? It does more damage with all of the guns it has. If you normalize the hit boxes you would have to normalize the guns, speed, thrust, and brakes as well to keep balance.

    The reaver is a little easier to hit, because it does massive damage. If you don't think the DPS differences are great enough to be concerned with go fly a reaver and one clip something. It's sure a helluva lot faster. Secondly, since the hit box is a little larger it's granted the best maneuverability AND speed. I think those are fair trades. Making formidable in. 1v1's when in the right hands, and outstanding in group air fights. Not to mention it's unbeatable at jumping people.

    The scythe with it's slim profile and accurate nose gun is awesome for 1v1's. A draw back for this is how freaking slow it is. If you start to get out numbered good luck trying to run, and your vertical thrust isn't amazing so you have to learn to move while showing your slim profile. It's very easy for inexperienced scythe pilots to show pancake, and in a 2v1 it often lacks the mobility to hide it from the second pilots. Which makes it's accuracy badly needed to keep sustained damage on people.

    The mossie has a rotary that SHOULD fall in the middle. It should be decently accurate and do a medium amount of damage, but I'm pretty sure it has the slowest dps? I'm not 100% sure on this, because honestly it's my least favorite of the ESF's so I tend to ignore it. I will say though that it's forward profile is extremely hard to track as it's often hard to tell if the pilot is ascending or descending imo. It's pretty good at pursuing others at a steady pace keeping up just enough for the enemy to waste it's fuel.
  18. Wizz

    They just don't listen to the air elders man. Also, good air fights on CC man. Was a heck of a fight.
  19. Gleerok

    After last year's changes, the Mossie's Rotary has been utterly useless. Seriously, it has no use, it under performs in every realistic situation and out performs by far the other guns (minus banshee) where it really matters. Its only advantage, which is the "explosive" factor of hight fire rate is only relevant at point-blank. And every other gun is "good" point-blank lol.



    So, by the way you put it, hixbox is, inherently, a faction treat relevant to gameplay (plus aesthetics) regardless if it is intentional or a side-effect of aesthetics, then, it should be legitimized, and not frowned upon since it falls on the faction trait area for ES balance between factions. Ok, that totally is a valid point on my view. Why not?

    Either way, it still bugs me how visibly easier it is to fight Reavers. Ok that I perhaps didn't spend enough time on a Scythe to feel the real downfalls (and consequent pros) of the aircraft, but the feel (from the pov of a mossie) is clear.


    Ok, then from the POV of a mossie I'm perhaps underpowered :p ? I don't wanna turn this into a "I'm not good enough/don't feel good enough please buff me", but since I only "tried out" other aircraft, my pov must be much less plural than yours, thus, my opinions are linked to how the mossie performs in relation to other ESFs, from the pov of the mossie itself.
  20. Wizz

    I agree the mossie needs some serious buffs as far as rotaries are concerned. It doesn't perform anywhere near as well as it used too as far as I can tell. I try to fly it on and off, but it's just so bad... But still mossies > scythes in group fights still as far as my experience tells me :p

    Also, I think I mentioned some where that the reavers guns are the hardest to lead with. So, good reaver pilots are often hard to find on connery I can think of three reaver pilots that put up a good fight. Datablue, xervous, and blecro. They all show the reavers strengths very well, and put up a hell of a fight in a 1v1. Most people just lead pretty poorly, and it leads to reavers being really easy to beat.

    I wouldn't exactly call the hit boxes a faction trait, but I believe they are there to balance things. Just like if the reaver guns WERE as easy to use as the scythes that machine of destruction would be unbeatable.