The "real" reason why ZOE is OP.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RobotNinja, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. GhostAvatar

    Lets see, using an argument that the opponent isnt. Well I think replacing ZOE is OP with world peace covers that part. Why would you replace it, ohhh because it is easier to counter that argument than the premises the original poster made in the same format. The simple fact is you created a straw man in comparing it to world peace in an attempt to knock down the process of comparing pros and cons.

    Also, got to say I love the ad hominem attack at the start of the post, with the added presumption that I am part of the younger generation. Thats why you reply (and forthcoming ones) didn't get a full read and response. Just this little extract. Have fun now.
  2. W0rthy

    You claim pounders suck and that i am an idiot for saying otherwise, basically.

    I have 600+ kills with pounder, many on cobalt have seen me use them/fought me whilst i have used them. Including me using lockdown. Aswell as people who have asked me how i kill with them, which i have explained to them and after they "got it" they really like them now too.

    How is that possible?

    You claim falcons suck and that i am an idiot for saying otherwise, basically.

    I have now 240 kills with falcon.. about 3x the amount i had last time i ran into you on the forums 3-4 days ago or what was it.. When i had just started using them at that point.

    How is that possible?

    I have just unlocked fracture and mercy on my TR literally like 2 days ago, so i haven't used them much yet hence the low amount of kills, i am enjoying pounders too much. So that explains that.

    The reason i recommend mercies is because they like pounders in lockdown can take out the dumbfiring heavies at a distance allowing you to anchor in more open areas than say onslaughts or mutis. I have used mutis in lockdown, onslaughts just have shorter range and more rof so i obviously know they are effective at small areas like control points, when i have been successfull with mutis.

    Explain how any of that is theoretical please? I'm all ears.

    Lockdown AV is superb. It allows longer range effectiveness so you can lockdown at a safer distance. Plus at closer ranges you take down heavies that try to dumbfire you very efficiently.

    That others do not have as much combat experience as me does not a faulty argument make. Still being relatively new to TR but getting towards being a veteran (BR 88 atm.) I am still baffled how some TR players can claim pounders and lockdown are bad here on the forums and maintain a straight face.

    But i do know it takes a certain technique to use for instance pounders aswell as falcons that is perhaps not immediately intuitive. Because you cannot use them as comets because of the deadzone as i have said several times.

    As i play with pounders and falcons more and more i actually prefer them to comets, i really dislike the low comet damage/rof/reload combo after playing extended sessions with pounders and falcons.

    I can only keep maintaining that you are completely wrong in your assertion about pounders, about falcons and about lockdown aswell, because i have great success in using them. And you can keep maintaining that i'm lying or something like that. And then we can keep going round and round the merry-go-round. But atleast i actually have quite significant documented experience about what i am talking about compared to the amount you have. Aswell as many enemy and friendly witnesses who have seen me wreak havoc with them ingame recently.

    Anyways, to end on a thread related note. I would think it would be fine to give zoe a 2 second enable/disable to put it more in line with lockdown/aegis.
  3. Phazaar


    There was no ad hominem attack. There was a statement of frustration as to how widespread your nonsense form of rebuttal has become, and that in my opinion it's largely down to youth and inexperience. You may not fit in that group yourself, that's why I didn't say 'your generation come out with', I said 'the younger generation come out with.'

    Now, go back and read my post and you'll realise that I clearly wasn't making a straw man argument, given that I didn't disagree or attempt to counter any premises the OP made. It's all written down if only you weren't behaving in such an abrasive manner as to not read the explanation as to why you have completely misconstrued what a straw man argument may be, but in doing so, what my post actually stated, and thus have used a straw man argument yourself.

    Stick at it and you'll get there, or accept your limitations and don't get in over your head.
  4. RobotNinja

    Aegis shield is hardly "instant" compared to ZOE's activation/deactivation time...which actually is instant.

    To reload with Aegis you have to have already started your reload cycle and then raise your shield to reload with the shield up otherwise, nope...you cannot reload with the shield up. All that is, is an incredibly minor bug/exploit Aegis MAXes have been taking advantage of.

    Aegis is a completely defensive capability that makes you walk as slow as molasses when activated which often negates it's defensive capability due to the fact you turn yourself into a carnival shooting gallery.

    Yes, 90 degrees is a limited forward aiming arc, unless you know of a TR Lockdown MAX that can shoot behind itself and that isn't exactly what I'd call generous. Not being able to move while in Lockdown mode makes the TR MAX a massive death magnet. The majority of the time you can only use Lockdown with impunity when you already have an enemy base completely spawncamped from top to bottom at which point the need for Lockdown is negated anyway so the problem with Lockdown is it's massively impractical and highly situational.
    • Up x 2
  5. Taemien

    This might help bring the maxes inline.

    Buff charge to 45s duration, 5s cooldown. Make it better over all than the specific abilities, and the Maxes are roughly equal again. God help any infantry that encounter them though.
  6. W0rthy


    I really don't agree that they are that highly situational but i've heard it umpteen times on the forums since the abilities were introduced.

    After playing TR and using lockdown I've found great application for them in most installations, the weapons is what you have to vary according to the placement/situation, with the right location and coverage they can be truly awesome. I do think a lot do not use the AV option against infantry/maxes, specifically the pounders enough with lockdown, Lockdown is just fabulous with pounders i can't stress that enough. It's probably the best performing all situational/overall way to use lockdown that i've found.

    Most people that try lockdown probably just smack on heavy cycler or mutis or whatever.. park themselves in middle of everything and get frustrated when a heavy bit away starts to dumbfire popping his head in and out of an obstacle, and your bullets can't connect fast enough because of the range. But that's the most epic fail way to use the lockdown though. Takes some finesse with the placement for different installations etc. And especially care of which weapons you use on the max. If you insist on AI and run around with the same AI weapons all the time and they aren't mercies, then Lockdown is extremely situational yes.

    If you run around with pounders, you can pretty much engage with lockdown at all ranges including the safer longer range, and take out the dumbfiring heavies quite effectively. And you don't have to worry as much about maxes that you do if you use Mercy (oh noes out of ammo and too little damage).
  7. W0rthy


    Buff charge to 45 seconds duration? I'm sorry you will have to explain to me how that will help anything. Charge is 2-3x faster than zoe in a line of sight direction without being able to shoot untill you cancel it. So you will have maxes doing 500 yard sprints around the biolabs?

    Wouldn't it be better to reintroduce travel mode :D

    Obviously you are confusing charge with something else right?
  8. Leonidas423

    Buddy... I checked your killboard, both the TR and the NC.. not doing so hot with either of those MAXs now, are you? I'm just saying, you could get a higher level of practicality when you use AI weapons for their designated purpose: AI.

    What you are trying to establish is that you are better then everyone else, and that everyone else is doing it wrong. One look at your killboard proves different. When soloing (and I assume you are soling) I am leaps and bounds better then you at the NC MAX. Can't speak for the TR MAX as I don't play TR, but I am pretty sure many of the players here are also leaps and bounds better then you at the TR MAX. Just to get you off your little ego train.
    • Up x 1
  9. ABATTLEDONKEY


    :D HAd a good laugh at this one!
    • Up x 1
  10. W0rthy

    Hey buddy, I have a 10 pounder killstreak on my current TR killboard, as i you can clearly tell from both my TR and NC killboard i've been playing other classes about 80% of the time last time i was logged on. However friend i have produced 20+ killstreaks with both pounders and falcons multiple times in between our discussions that have been visible on my killboard and i am well capable of reproducing those killstreaks.

    I never tried to establish at any point that i was better than everyone else, that's your own sense of inferiority speaking, but i have been told by quite a few players that i'm quite good and my statistics are quite alright aswell. However i don't parade it around nor here or ingame and i only linked my characters on multiple request from angry people saying i had never used those weapons

    But i do defend myself/take a bit of offense to being dragged through the mud and basically being relegated to newb status by some forumsiders because i say something they haven't recognized, i merely say that i speak from experience rather than looking at stats on a damn spreadsheet and deduct usability from there in an erroneous manner, which seems to be the modus operandi of a lot of forumsiders.

    I stated that pounders and falcons are viable options alongside comets, and that those who do not think so must be clearly using the wrong technique for pounders and falcons. That's as PSA as it gets.. translation: use pounders and falcons against comet maxes to even the playingfield! And you read it like "he's telling us we're newbs, let's get our pitchforks!".

    You who talk about someone else putting words in your mouth, should stop putting words in other peoples mouths, guy, otherwise buddies might be mad and no longer be your friend, and soon be a guy again buddy!

    My point was guy, that i perform just as well or perhaps even better with pounders and falcons than i do with comets.

    Your argument that AI is better alround is obviously true, and i never denied that, i've gotten very high killstreaks with mutis/grinders etc.That's why it's called AI: anti infantry.. herp derp.. AV is for anti vehicle and anti max. But thank you for being captain obvious for saying that AI: Anti Infantry is probably better against infantry alround than AV is. My eyes have indeed been "opened".

    However AV is still viable to kill them at range/basically have a dumbfire standoff against heavies. Aswell as being able to take them down if they get close. Which is pretty much what i was trying to say.

    There is really little escaping the fact though that if you are not able to do aswell with pounders and falcons against max and infantry as you do with comets, then you using the wrong technique with them and need to experiment in how you fire each arm. And it's sad that my PSA about pounders and falcons get mocked in such a rude fashion by multiple people such as yourself when i can demonstrate their effectiveness, and urge others to use them for their own benefit. The rude thing would be not saying anything.

    But if you do manage to get the falcon/pounder deadzone removed by some brainfart on the dev side. I will swiftly demonstrate how insanely OP they will become. Which in itself will be hilariously entertaining running around one volleying everything without having to fire 1 arm at a time, as ridiculously op as how the phoenix was against infantry before the nerf. So go for it! :D It will probably last 1 day but what a day it will be.

    So essentially i really don't mind that you lobby to get falcons and pounders buffed, i think it's hilariously cute. However if you do manage to lobby to nerf comets because you want to use falcons and pounders in the same way whilst dealing far more damage, then that however is a problem for the gameplay and i can't really in good concience agree to that, or subscribe to that notion.

    Are you understanding what i am trying to get across yet buddy, or do you want to make a friend a guy?
  11. SpaceKing


    maek tutorial, post here
  12. Mxiter

    Next W0rthy post: Vortexes are the best AI weapon. /sarcasm

    Yes pounders synergizes well with lockdown, i won't deny that but

    -lockdown just the worst and the most situational AV weapons.
    -Comets are just 500times easier to use than pounders thanks to high ROF-no drop-no recoil-high damages- low convergence.

    Even enforcer mod on a vannie can kill stuffs, it's just much more easier to do with fury or marauder harasser.

    THis example fits well to the situation:

    Comets are strong and easy to use (like marauder/fury) + ZoE that adds ~=25% more damages and more mobility (like harassers).
    Enforcer Mod is terrible: bad ROF and hard to reach target for some reasons (like pounders/falcons) and vanny is slow (like TR/NC maxes).

    That's certainly why TR/NC uses mostly expensive fractures and ravens and why VS don't feel the needs to use vortexes.

    I get as much kills with fractures using Fracture+mutilator split setup in one week than using dual pounder during a month.
  13. dciz2legit

    2 guys can take out a zoe max by just spraying smart and tactical shoot one can do it with c4 and that goes for all other max too, what I think is the girls crying about it are to dumb or lazy players and get out smarted and want an easy challange. If I understand it I think the ps2 dev team intended the zoe max to run free at an expense of extra damage as the nc max is great at crashing points in cqc (**** that is scary:0). Lets say they do buff it and give it a timer that would just make it harder to kill since zoe will deactivate.
  14. Xasapis

    The main reason people don't use Vortexes, apart from the cost (double of Lancer in a unit that costs resources), is because you are doing practically no damage to infantry, thus offer zero self protection even from solo infantry. So it ends up getting used in anti vehicle nests, where the enemy infantry presence is really far away and is getting replaced fast by Comets where there is a hint of enemy infantry activity.
  15. Goretzu

    The problem with ZOE is negates the MAXs main weakness (mobility), permenantly if needed.

    The + and - damage part is actually fairly irrelevent.





    To make the Aegis shield equally as powerful, for example, they'd basically have to make it work like the Vangard shield and 100% protect you AND make it so it stayed up permenantly until depleted...... even then I'm not convinced it would be as good as ZOE.
  16. Ghosty11

    If you start the reload before activating Aegis the reload will finish, but you can't start a reload with the Aegis Shield up. It takes bit of practice to get used to reloading before shielding, but it's not hard. SOE needs to make it so you can reload with the shield up to make Aegis more user friendly.
  17. Ghosty11

    ...and rightly so. The Scat MAX at that time was OP in it's ability to one-clip other MAXes. SOE went over board on the nerfs to the ScatMAX, and is now UP vs. other MAXes, thus compounding the ZOE problem for the NC, as they really don't have a good counter to ZOE.
  18. ComradeHavoc

    Accept your shame.
  19. Santondouah

  20. Ghosty11

    The VS MAX was outperforming other faction MAXes prior to ZOE for a couple of reasons:
    1. The Cosmos had the Blueshift's accuracy while maintaining it's higher damage and magazine capacity. Anyone who used these back in the day knows how OP they were.
    2. Few VS used MAXes because of their stigma of being bad, pink fairy MAXes etc, thus those that did use them, ended up being more skilled with them on average.
    Now because of the stigma of ZOE you see every VS and their mom running around in a MAX suit, ZOE or no ZOE, making them seem more OP than they probably are.