The Real Problem with AA is Procrastination

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Aekir, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. orangejedi829


    Have fun 'chasing off' air.

    But don't be mad when the rest of the playerbase is off doing something, I don't know... rewarding?
    • Up x 4
  2. cobaltlightning

    's why I suggested the slow Swarm Mechanic and LoS Lock for the Default Launchers Against Air, it wouldn't rule out the viability of the other Launchers:
    The unlockable Lockons have a fire-and-forget type of Lock while gimping some damage, allowing the player to lock, fire, and hide for a reload.
    The ES Lockons can still dumbfire and have that nifty 1x scope, which can really help judge the distance. Again, Less Damage, but are far more versatile than the Stock.
    The Decimator has insane damage but can't lock. The lack of the scope makes it less reliable for long-range combat.

    They would be side-grades rather than straight upgrades, like most every other weapon in the game.

    Against Ground-Based Targets, the Stock Launchers would see no change, no locking onto them with the Stock.
  3. Khallixtus

    Step 1 to Beating Air: Equip AA RL
    Step 2 to Beating Air: Actually start locking on before it unleashes the rockets. Not after when it's running away.

    Seriously, ESFs can easily escape a lock on rocket, but only if they start running early to get around that mountain. If you start locking on before it kills its targets, it has two choices; lose half of its health or miss out on a bunch of kills. If three or more people actually just use their AA RL, you can do a good job of keeping the air clear.

    Even if you cant kill the ESF, making it have to waste time (and therefore manpower and nanites) getting back into a good position or finding a safe place to land and repair is good enough.

    And another tip, actually start using the AA as soon as you see the planes arriving. Don't start doing it once they have locked the place down.
    • Up x 1
  4. Demigan

    Step 3 to beating air: realize that aircraft are incredibly fast and have more than enough opportunity to be unleashing rockets by the time they are visible.
    Step 4 to beating air: Realize that even if you do see them in time, the lock-on time make you vulnerable to everything around you.
    Step 5 to beating air: Realize that G2A lockons are crap because of all the bugs causing the missile to self-destruct on the environment making them unreliable at best and crap at worst.
    Step 6 to beating air: Realize that G2A lockons have a TTK on aircraft so long, they can cruise 1000m distance in the time you try to kill them, they have plenty of time to spot where you are (hint: nearby safety where you won't get killed while tunnel visioning with a lockon, such as a spawnpoint) and blow you to pieces in return.
    Step 7 to beating air: Try other G2A weapons, realize they are deterrents as well rather than killers, stop having fun using any G2A weapon at all.
    Step 8 to beating air: Ignore it, hope someone else takes care of it. If it gets too bad grab so G2A out of pure desperation or as an alternative wait around with a dumbfire and hope they get too coc ky so you can OHK them with a skillful shot.

    Yeah! Because a lockon OHK's you! Oh wait it doesn't, they can easily tank one shot and get out of there, they can tank two shots, use FS and tank another one before getting out of there.

    From single aircraft? Maybe. I personally always hunt down G2A lockons. They are the easiest targets to kill, standing still and often in specific area's to prevent their missile from committing suicide. I usually kill them over and over again until they give up and go do something productive.

    Except that you are wasting more of your own time. While you are getting some ribbons (if you are lucky) that ESF has enough time to kill, let's err to the incredibly low side, 1 player per two attack runs. That's still more fun, more XP and more statistics gained towards directives for instance than the lockon.

    And another tip: Go to the forums until they give G2A the attention it deserves. No more deterrents. No more "aircraft can't get into large fights". No more "aircraft can pick fights without AA". And another tip: Point out to every person who thinks G2A is "in a good place" that they are completely and utterly wrong until they finally understand and actually try their own warped "idea's".
    • Up x 2
  5. Haquim

    I'm not mad and I'm not being farmed. The others are. Apparently getting farmed by air because nobody is fighting back is not as rewarding as you seem to think. Why else would we have a weekly "Air OP" thread?
    Also, if that "rest of the playerbase" didn't mainly consist of parasitic "someone-else-is-gonna-do-the-work-for-me" people like you those ESFs and even Liberators would vaporize almost instantly instead.

    Really, if protecting yourself and your allies from airstrikes is not important enough to even be considered....
    Then maybe A2G is not enough of a threat to have an impact and its weaponry not powerful enough.
    • Up x 1
  6. Atis

    Since we can't make AA too lethal without eliminating air from game, I suggest we make A2G deterrent, just like G2A. lets say 2 clips from tankbuster in da pooper just make tank a bit worried and force it to hide for reps. Clip from airhammer burns shields and scares infantry without killing anyone. Deterrent vs deterrent, seems like a perfect solution.
    • Up x 3
  7. orangejedi829

    You misunderstand.

    It's not that people think others will pull AA for them, it's that they simply don't want to pull AA, period, because it's completely unrewarding when compared with doing just about anything else.

    This is especially true in "early" fights (when you say people should start pulling AA). Do you really expect players to spend resources and time pulling AA, just so that they can scare off one or two ESFs, not getting any kills, not getting any XP, and then just sitting around doing nothing, when they could be doing something - anything - else?
    No, the simple fact of the matter is that people aren't "procrastinating" with AA, they're simply consciously choosing not to use it because it is laughably ineffective and, 99% of the time, provides no reward whatsoever to the user.

    As for the "reward" of "not being farmed by air" - For most players, it's clearly more rewarding to simply ignore air and get killed by it every now and then than it is to actually try to fight back, which really speaks volumes about the pathetic state of AA in the game.
    • Up x 2
  8. Demigan

    Look Haquim, tactically it's worth using G2A weapons in your area. It pushes aircraft to other places where's there's no AA (which is a problem in and off itself for the players there, but just imagine if everywhere there was a large reaction of multiple AA sources, you would cut an entire unit type out of the game!). However the problem isn't that it's tactically worth it, the problem is that it's not fun, not engaging, has the lowest scores in the game to show for it and is generally useless mere seconds after it was effective.

    How about this, let's play a game where you have 50 players doing whatever. Now you could prevent something bad for your team from happening, but it requires 4 people to basically eliminate themseleves from playing the game they were playing, sitting in a corner and doing only something when the bad thing comes along, essentially making you useless for 95% of the playtime. They get no recognition for their work and they are not valued for actually contributing because theoretically they could have joined the rest despite the bad thing and just make it harder for everyone.
    Now ask yourself, who on earth is going to play the 4 people? You are asking people to stop having fun. Sure there's a handful of people on here who do enjoy it, or at least some very specific parts such as a single weapon, but most people don't seem to enjoy it. Not to mention that you completely mess up an entire play variety if these 4 players act their part. Yes, you don't just mess up your own fun, you mess up the fun of the people you counter with it! A counter should be fun for both the user and the one it's used on, the one who's on the wrong end of the weapon should feel that there's things he can do, something mechanic or skill to use to get out on top or at least get out alive without having to leave the fight entirely and not being able to come back afterwards.
    • Up x 2
  9. Demigan

    Actually you can make G2A lethal. By dialing down the ease with which you can hit aircraft (reduce the "fire in the general vicinity and use spray and pray for hits") you can make the G2A weapons lethal. Just think of a tank going up against other tanks or infantry with AV. The tank does not have to flee just because there's AV weapons there. The tank can use positioning, flanking and skill in firing on the move etc to overcome the challenge while remaining in the fight. For aircraft you replace "positioning" with "mobility" and give the m the ability to dodge G2A. If they don't dodge or the skill of the G2A player was higher than the dodging skill, G2A wins. If the aircraft had more skill in dodging than the G2A in leading and aiming skill, the aircraft wins and is capable of staying in the fight, potentially killing the G2A target.
    Of course, due to the multi-functionality of the ESF compared to the niche functionality of the Skyguard it should require less skill for the Skyguard to win than the ESF requires to win, not overly much, but enough to be noticeable.
  10. Haquim

    You have such a wonderful onesided view on this matter

    Step 3: Realize that due to the way rendering works you will see the ESF at least for twice the distance he sees you - flying an ESF in medium to big fights you can get as close as 50-75 meters before you can see the bursters who basically already killed you.
    And you can't attack what you can't see - so its exactly the opposite: You can shoot the ESF before it can shoot YOU.
    Step 4: Thats not even an argument. I'm pretty sure that shooting anything will make me vulnerable to any other enemy who happens upon me. Difference being that you usually use your G2A weaponry from relatively safe places, like around your spawnroom.
    Or is being headshotted by a sniper now a unique weakness of G2A launchers?
    Step 5: Well, its not really a bug but certainly true. Nobody likes the way rockets try to set an intercept course and keep flying into obstacles. Dunno why they ever changed it into that.
    Step 6: You're not the only groundpounder in your team. Accept that only fairies are allowed to solo vehicles. Come to the conclusion that 3 people with a brain turn a 12+ seconds TTK into Locked ON -> Dead for most people without flares. Which rarely anybody runs since firesuppresssion is the meta and most people only run after they took the first hit.
    Step 7: Notice that dual bursters have a TTK of 4.6 seconds (assuming you manage to hit with that very difficult FLAK weapon) on an ESF, about 6,3 seconds if it is running composite. 5.86 with firesuppression and 8.45 with firesuppression and composite - but for that last one you need extended magazines, without them its 11,45 seconds.
    For the Skyguard the numbers are 3.375s/4.875s and 4.5s/6.375s.
    If the ESF wants to actually get away after the attack it has a fraction of that time to attack before it is forced to abort its run and flee.
    Even the sturdiest layout of ESF has only about 5 seconds to attack before fleeing - damn FIVE SECONDS instead of hovering and bombarding the base for minutes until the rockets run out. Those deterrents sure are useless.
    Step 8: Realize that this the only step you ever do. Hope someone else does it. How nice of you to prove Aekir right.

    I would be one of those 4 people, and It would give my team an advantage over the enemy. Maybe I enjoy "winning a fight" more than adding another kill to the couple thousand I already got?
    But that is exactly the isse here - there is not even a NEED for these 4 people to remove themselves from "normal gameplay".
    Do you think everytime I see an enemy ESF I pull a burster and start watching the skies from the spawnroom like some ancient guardian statue?
    No - all I do is change my class to heavy assault with my grounder equipped. Or my Striker, if I'm on Hossin. Everytime some enemy air drops by I move back from the fight a bit and spend 10 seconds telling them to **** off and then proceed as normal.
    IF there is a complete enemy airforce assaulting the base I might pull a burster MAX, but that is usually not necessary. And even if it is, after they either died or shoved off I can still change my loadout and go on a rampage through the enemy infantry.
    A skyguard is almost always a total overkill - its basically too good at its job and too bad at everything else. No enemy air will go even near me while I can't defend myself against everything else. But IF I feel that I need one you can be sure that I'm standing between my team and an airfleet of at least 8 ESFs and usually a couple Libs and Gals.
    If you're attacking and think you might need AA, pull a dual walker Sundy as spawnpoint - hop into the turrets when air is buzzing around, charge ahead while they don't. And everybody else spawning there can do the same.

    I have NEVER seen a situation where permanent AA cover was necessary that didn't have constant fly-bys by enemy ESFs unless you count that one time where I spent 15 minutes dismantling a whole armada from one and a half hexes away with a skyguard.
    Almost all situations where you need AA can be solved by being adaptable.
    "Its unrewarding" "Its boring" "its a full-time job preventing me from doing something fun" that and all those others are excuses of people who want their COD rambo MLG FPS session and can't be bothered with it.
    They want the gratification and want their team to support and protect them - but they don't want to be a part of the team.

    The orangejedi said people consciously make the decision not to use AA. And basically you said the same.
    That is possibly more important than all the things I said until now put together.
    You made the decision not to fight air. Nobody forced you, and the tools to do so would be readily available.
    You made this decision in full knowledge of the consequences and implications.
    You have NO right whatsoever to complain about the consequences you decided for yourself.
    Stop whining and start dealing with it.
    • Up x 2
  11. Shinn

    I drive a Skyguard all the time. I'd like a little more lethality against Liberators, but I think it's fairly well balanced against ESFs at the moment.

    I certainly don't support any reduction in the power of A2G fire - the most unrewarding aspect of pulling AA are the periods where there's no opposition air about - limiting the effect of A2G would only discourage people from piloting, and increase those periods of inactivity.

    If anything the should be making air a harder counter to unprotected armour columns: boost the advantages of air supremacy and you make AA a necessity rather than a waste of time.
    • Up x 1
  12. Demigan

    Well actually no.

    You act as if aircraft fly without using cover or as if the AA user will be out in the open with a 360 view of his environment, which is more likely to be a death sentence than a sure fire way to deal with aircraft. The person I quoted was talking exclusively about Lockons, which have a range of what, 550m lockon? That gives a lockon about 4 seconds to fire at an approaching aircraft before he renders, assuming the aircraft is cruising about without using anything from the environment and the lockon sees him on time.
    It's been long, looooong ago that the game had such severe problems that infantry popped in and out of existence at 50 to 75m. In fact, I had no trouble at all finding infantry on the ground while doing flyby's over a large fight with the afterburner bug active, which should be a primary recipe for infantry rendering too late.

    Also have you ever considered how "easy" it is to find aircraft? An aircraft has his work cut out for him: Bases focus the infantry/vehicle fight on them, so all you need to do is fly to the fight and look at the geography to determine where enemies will likely be. At most you have to check an area of 100x100m, you find something or you spot something somewhere within that area, you do an attack run and done!
    G2A however needs to scan a 360 environment where aircraft can be at multiple heights and distances while each attack vector needs to be accounted for. You need to keep the high cover in check that aircraft use to get close without being spotted, you need to keep both the high and low altitude sky in check to determine if an aircraft approaches. While the aircraft knows there's enemies to fight right now, a G2A player does not know if an aircraft could be approaching right now, or if the next aircraft approaches after they were pushed/advanced through two more bases. This puts a lot more stress on the G2A player to see the aircraft before the aircraft has closed in enough to nullify the rendering advantage. Not to mention that a G2A player will almost always be forced to limit the amount of sky he can see to make it easier to spot and fire upon them. Did you ever realize that the reason many G2A players will stick with a Spawnroom or at the back of a base is because they make spotting and firing easier? Regardless of what the aircraft does, it needs to make a pass nearby a target meaning that the G2A players need to watch just that volume of sky rather than the entirety of the 1000m radius hemisphere. But it also means that G2A will not be able to take advantage of that render-range window, which is incidentally only a real advantage for infantry, and not a big one at that.

    It is an argument, G2A lockons instantly force you to lose all situational awareness. You do not know if there's enemies right in front of you even if they knifed you, while G2G lockons, snipers or any other weapon at least keep your situational awareness in front of you, albeit as tunnel vision. Especially against a target that's not bound by the environment this is a severe problem that pushes the use of G2A lockons to the more secure area's where you won't be picked off while gazing into the sky.

    It is a bug if the missile comes out of your barrel with an interceptcourse that can potentially be perpendicular to the point you are facing. That piece of cover you are using and deliberately stepping away from/aiming away from to prevent your missile from hitting it? It's going to receive that missile anyway if you aren't careful because the direction you are looking does not affect it. Even if it wasn't a bug, it's a severe hindrence in the weapon's usage itself.

    Again, lockons are completely unreliable. If you gather 6 people with lockons and have them fire simultaneously I predict a success rate of about 50% to kill the ESF in one salvo. theoretically 3 lockons can kill ESF in one salvo. theoretically a decimator/AP Vanguard/Maggy can OHK every ESF that comes within range. theoretically a BASR can OHK anyone within X meters distance and reign supreme over any other weapon at any range. It's just that the mechanics surrounding it prevent them from actually performing that power at a constant or reliable rate.

    Did I say that the G2A weapons were weak? No, in fact I've been saying for ages that their power and ease-of-use cause the terrible exponential scaling effect when using multiple G2A weapons. Even lockons go from "yeah you won't ever get a kill on a healthy opponent in a million years" to "has a chance to get kills" when used in groups.
    However, you are assuming 100% hit chance, even though all weapons other than flak have severe issue's with hit%. All flak weapons are based on spray&pray with the flak mechanic increasing their hit chance, but also hampered by a large COF to ensure even pinpoint accuracy won't mean you hit every shot. In fact, range increases the amount of misses exponentially despite pinpoint precision. Sure you will hit due to RNG determining some hits, but that same RNG will determine more and more misses as range increases. The range where you get 100% hits is short, extremely short. So to get that magical 3,375 TTK on an ESF you need to be lucky enough to find a pilot who doesn't react to you.
    Have you ever tried to flank an ESF with a Skyguard? As in: Move up to a hovering ESF that doesn't notice you, then open fire from practically point-blank range? You'll find that the ESF (or any type of aircraft really) has the time to accelerate and get out of there safely.
    Also to get that magical 100% hits you need to be standing somewhere along the lines of the ESF attack path, and hope that the ESF will fly low enough that you can get 100% hits...

    It's as if you are saying "well a Carbine can have a TTK of 0,3 seconds, therefore all fights are settled within 0,3 seconds". Well accuracy, COF and range, determine otherwise and you'll find precious few places where that 0,3 seconds is actually reached. And aircraft actually have the time to react and get out of that shortest TTK range and have enough health and speed to even get safely away.

    Anyway. G2A isn't weak, it's mechanics are designed in such a way that aircraft do have to flee, although in most cases you have to add "eventually" to it due to the average damage output. If you look at the damage done on people's pages, G2A weapons score the highest easily. They deal the most damage of all weapons in the game, despite their low usage, despite their lack of getting results (IE kills and wreckages). This is a bad system for aircraft, since you need a fairly few number to keep aircraft out. However, once aircraft are out, what do you do with a highly specialized weapon that can't really be used for anything else? You get bored, you have to dump it.

    Well since I've actually auraxed things like the Skygaurd I don't do just this step. However you seem to agree with the step! G2A weaposn are so badly designed that practically no one wants to touch them, leaving it to someone else or ignoring the threat because that's still more fun than shooting yourself in the foot by grabbing a G2A weapon.

    I'm sure you would, however you haven't as yet have you? Your best G2A weapon is the Skyguard with 131 kills vs 132 vehicle kills, which is impressive but not exactly proving your point with only 10 hours played. You claim that you would do it, but you would rather stick to MBT AP AA than take actual dedicated G2A weapons. And why not? At least with MBT AP AA you can fight off infantry and other tanks.

    But the point isn't that there's 4 people who might want to do it, you need to find 4 people who will take that spot, whether it's roulated or the same few people. Considering the amount of players that would be thinking like you ("sure I would do it, I just haven't done so yet") it already bodes badly for the game. And we see the result: Aircraft being able to fight uncontested in many area's.

    There's no need to play aircraft either. There's no need to use Sunderers or tanks. It does enhance the gameplay if those are all used. Everything should be fun to do in the game. Resource gathering, support roles, attacking, defending. There shouldn't be any role that 90% of the players do not even consider to use. Preferences aside, every task in the game should enhance the fun for all parties involved. Counterplay is an integral part of this, by allowing aircraft to react to G2A weapons with more than afterburn out of there or curbstomp them until they go do something else (IE what I do with lockon users and to some extent to Bursters if I get in aircraft).

    Both with terribly low statistics. But you point it out nicely, why would you pull G2A before aircraft arrive? Why would you keep watching the sky after they left? You don't know if they are going to come back, or when. And that's one part of the problem. A good system would mean that there's always aircraft about. Not necessarily in sight, but about and lurking. There should be just as many ground vehicles in any fight as aircraft to make it fun.
    Talking about fun. G2A is mostly waiting. Now stealth games are also waiting games where a lot of the time you are doing nothing. The reason this works (in the good stealthgames) is because no matter what the player is doing, from looking around to discovering new passageways to finding out the exact pathing of the guards to methods to avoid combat, they feel they are doing something and progressing their game, even if they just sat still for 10 minutes at the same spot watching some guards at their routine only to find the guards do not have an exploit and that you need to look somewhere else they still feel they advanced. That's why Stalker infiltrators still have a function in the game and a group of dedicated people that play them, even if you haven't done anything for 15 minutes you can have the time of your life trying to avoid detection and getting in position to get a kill, but never quite getting there.
    G2A does not have that. There's nothing fun to do while watching empty skies, there's no sense of accomplishment between the action and even during the action there's little accomplishment to be felt. You can feel satisfied about getting a lot of hits with a CQC weapon on a long-range target, but G2A weapons do not even offer satisfaction there. "Oh I hit, well RNG favored me I guess" is the best you could hope for.

    After which you have accomplished nothing really. Sure you moved the problem to another base, or maybe they'll be back in 10 seconds.
    Realise that even if a large enough portion scared aircraft away every time they showed up that it would be (even more) detrimental to the airgame, because there wouldn't be an airgame left! And if not enough people pull G2A weapons, like we see in the game, then aircraft would be able to fight uncontested. Both situations are bad for the game, and show a bad game design that needs changing.

    Also is it just me or do you only react to the points I make about G2A, but not about how G2A affects the airgame in general?

    Aand there goes a lot of my respect for you. No it's not excuses of people who want their COD rambo MLG FPS session. I mean look at me, I have several days worth of G2A time. I don't ask for supa-dupa G2A weapons, I don't ask for aircraft to be mauled, decimated and turned to dust upon seeing G2A weapons. I'm asking for a change in how G2A weapons work to make them fun and useful for both the users and the aircraft it's used on. I'm asking for changes to make sure aircraft aren't something that you don't need to carry a small amount of G2A weapons to scare off aircraft completely. In fact, not even 10 G2A weapons should be able to scare off aircraft from a fight at all! What is this nonsense that G2A weapons should be able to scare aircraft away? The whole deterrence part is what's hated by both the aircraft and the G2A users! The G2A power isn't under discussion, G2A is powerful no doubt, it's just that the mechanics surrounding it create highly unsatisfying gameplay for just about everyone involved.

    Sure they do! It's just heavily discouraged as I keep telling you!

    Yes! And the moment people consciously decide not to use an entire weapons selection you know something is terribly, terribly wrong! How can you ignore something like that? How can you shove it aside and say "well if 95% of the players consciously decide not to use weapons even though they are getting hammered by the intended target of said weapons, then it's those players problem for not working as a team". What the actual ****? Seriously? Imagine if we made all aircraft fire tissue paper at all ground units, would aircraft be used much? Aside from the occasional A2A enthusiast it would mean that the airgame becomes non-existant because it's neither fun nor engaging, even though it could be even more useful than G2A weapons when engaging Galaxies, which would be practically the only real aircraft still used by the average player.

    The tools are horribly designed. The conscious desicion to not use them is because of the design, not because the players are bad. If players rather stick with the bad situation of getting farmed by air instead of actually pull the counter, you know the tool is completely ****!

    I have every right to complain! If you can't even understand that a massive conscious decision by most of the playerbase to not use an entire set of weapons proves a complete failure of the mechanics and tools offered, then you shouldn't be here in the first place.
    • Up x 2
  13. Haquim

    I like longer replies and a civilized discussion instead of the usual "no u wrong", but this is starting to get a bit out of hand XD

    Hope I didn't mess the quotes up...
    I'm acting as if aircraft cannot shoot through solid objects and thus all people who are actually threatened can spot them. If the aircraft can attack, the attacked can shoot back. And potentially even earlier. There has never been a fight with more aircraft than infantry - and each footman should have access to AA by now.

    Anyway, its nice that you don't have those render problems, but I do. Yesterday I was even killed by an ASPIS turret that didn't render until I was close enough to land at the towers landing pad.
    OTOH that might be just the european servers. After all it is tradtition that the european ones suck....

    Dude, aircraft have nothing to blend in, they stick out like a sore thumb. If you have a LOS to the target you see it. And turning around once takes barely one second. Never mind that aircraft too has flight corridors that they prefer for various reasons.
    Maybe I'm checking the skies more than other people if nothing on the ground demands attention, but that only means that others don't do it - not that they can't.
    And no, those people stick to the spawnroom because they can instantly retreat to safety if necessary, it has nothing to do with spotting. Thanks to the range and ease of use of G2A weapons there is no need to get closer to the fight to attack the aircraft and put yourself in danger.

    It's already riddiculous that you list snipers among that list. But putting the G2G lockons which literally work the same is simply stupid.
    Either way, situational awareness is absolutely useless and not even the matter.
    Being aware that a second guy just came through the other door and will kill you while you're busy ADAD dueling the first enemy is only gonna tell you beforehand that you will die - it does not change the situation one bit.
    Unless you finish off guy number one and then deal with number two - which is the same like firing your fire-and-forget rocket and then dealing with whatever pops in your face while you reload.
    So no, it isn't an argument.

    It's simply how those things work now. It's stupid and doesn't work very well. And I have more or less the same problem with the homing mechanism of the Hornets, which is also doing more harm than good.

    Well, maybe you're using them wrong? I have no troubles with them.... after I managed to aquire a lock.
    The fact that a moron running into my sight resets the locking process is another ******** "feature".

    The RNG is a little bit of a problem, but since your weapons either lockon or have a 6-8 m FLAK explosion...
    No, just no. If an ESF is attacking you, you either easily hit it, or it is hovering so far away it isn't even a threat. It amounts to a target 15 metres or more in diameter ffs. It's like the hitbox cheat upped to eleven.
    The only weapon that has a problem with that is the Walker, and that one sports whopping 1000m/s projectile speed....
    I'm not talking about ESFs in the next hex either, its attacking the base in which you stand.

    Well, aside from the fact that bringing "skill" into an equation is bound to fail....
    Since there is no G2A weapon that actually requires any it will still be closer to reality than with any other weapon.

    So where is the problem? Reload your launcher, switch to your LMG and continue killing other groundpounders.
    I don't intend to redesign the entire airgame - I'm saying that there is no problem whatsoever for ground to get rid of air. IF they finally manage to use the dozen tools at their disposal to do so.

    I'm impressed you auraxed that thing.
    But still - how am I shooting myself in the foot by equipping my Grounder?

    Can't say I have - because it is simply not necessary. Thats just the hyperbole of people who'd rather slam their fists to the ground while screaming "I DON'T WANNA" instead of just doing it.
    As I keep saying - press 3, lock on, fire, reload, press 1, carry on. And the majority of situations are taken care of.

    I have no idea where my Skyguard lies in its stats, but since air is not even close to as powerful I rarely if ever use it anymore. Grounder is sufficient in 95% of cases, and Bursters take care of the rest.
    Regarding the MBT AA - since I'm driving a Prowler I really doubt I got much more than a dozen airkills on it. And if I do its because the guy happened to fly by, not because I pulled it to do AA.

    Thats a logical error.
    I was talking about something negative while you talk about something positive.

    The ground equivalent would be that there is no need to drive a Sunderer through a minefield to attack a base or something of the sort.

    Now seriously, did you even read what I wrote?
    I solve most of the situations where enemy air is bombarding me by equipping a grounder on my heavy assault and keep doing what I do. When I got a target I shoot at it, it flies away to repair and I got a minute to do what I want until he comes by again for the next 10 seconds he is annoying.

    I have accomplished that my team is not under attack anymore. That was my goal and I achieved it.
    And no, its not just you, because that is exactly what I'm doing.
    Infantry says air is OP and they are helpless victims, and show them what to do and tell them that they are whining little kids and should grow up.
    I do not care about the airgame in general, I only care about the ability of groundforces to defend themselves, because that and their unwillingness to actually DO so is what this whole thread is about.

    Well, if you want to revampt the whole set of aircraft, A2G, A2A and G2A weapons be my guest. But this thread is not about how it should be, it is about the situation right now.
    And the situation right now is: "If I can't solo it, I don't care about it. I just whine about it on the forum"
    Its nice that you want to improve the game all-around but you're standing pretty alone on that front. Because MOST want exactly that.

    Yeah, good luck convincing me about that.
    As long as I see half a dozen HAs camping a door instead of charging in and taking the damn room while I'm SOLO fighting my way to A point just to capture it for 5 seconds before enemies react to the flashing and murder me I'm not gonna belive that.
    They care about exactly one thing - themselves. I mean what if they DIED while doing that?

    And here we two have a really big problem
    You said:
    And now you let aircraft shoot tissue paper? So G2A is weak after all?
    Is it weak or is it effective? Does it work or is the tool completely ****! ?
    You said its effective twice, and so do I.
    And now you did a complete turnabout from everything said before.

    If it is effective and works - and I know it does, and since you auraxiumed the Skyguard I assume so do you - then the problem lies NOT in the weapon.
    Does it hamper you? Well, I guess the Skyguard does. But as I said - there is almost never a reason to even go that far.
    Heavy assault, G2A lockon. Press 3 if needed, use LMG if not. You can even still shoot a MAX in the face with a rocket!
    For hard cases, dual bursters. After the Situation is resolved and air ****** off for good, change loadout and be happy to slaughter endoskeletal enemies.

    It's not rocketscience. It's just exactly what the title says - procrastination. "Someone else is gonna do it" mentality.
    After all - in any given fight there are about twenty OTHER people who could do it, so why do I have to do it myself ??....
  14. Haquim

    Well, now thats an achievement - I actually had to cut some things because the response with quotes was longer than the forums allowed....
  15. Taemien

    Increasing Air lethality would cause escalation of air to be a problem. Already Two ESF's are a serious threat to a MBT. And this is fine.. on paper. But where it lacks actual power is in the implementation. "Hit the tank on the left." Sounds simple, but which tank on the left out of 10? Especially if your angle of attack is slightly different?

    Being able to target enemies within LOS would solve this, especially if you could share such targeting with other players in your squad. This way coordinating attacks in quick runs would be beneficial, even in situations with heavy AA.

    This could be applied to ground vehicles fighting ground or air. Or even air fighting air. This would go a long way to making vehicle combat more engaging.

    Obviously restriction would be on LoS and range. With stealth equipped unites reducing the range.

    Here's a demonstration of it in use in MWO:

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  16. Atis

    So like stronger walker? No flak, needs to land shots consistently. Now 1 walker is a decent deterrent for single esf/valk, nothing more. You need 2 of them, with some upgrades and really good gunners to actually shred non hovering esf before it dives behind some hill/tower. If 1 walker was deadly, it would be worth to run it on MBT/harraser.

    Or make huge walker-like gun for lightning, call it Wingtearer and shred overconfident Libs that got too low for TB.

    And it should be somehow viable against ground (bigger angle, better armor-pirercing potential)

    And maybe some noob friendly deterrent, like Hyena for harasser for 500 certs. G2A RLs leave new players feeling powerless since they are not used to their weird mechanics.
  17. Demigan

    Yes, something like that. I think that the Walker is still too much spray&pray, and you should have much less ammo per magazine and more damage per bullet to compensate. This also adds a better counterbalance if you put in a long reload in between. During the fire sequence the aircraft can try to dodge, then during the reload he's got a chance to actually fire at stuff.

    We still have a problem with Liberators. A weapon designed to hit ESF will have no trouble hitting Liberators, which means you need to give Liberators massive damage reductions to prevent situations where a Liberator will be automatically killed because he simply came within X distance.
    I would add a difference between light AA designed against ESF and heavy AA designed against Valkyries, Liberators and Galaxies. That way you can balance it out.
  18. Demigan

    Potentially even earlier, yes, but in many situations this will simply not be true. The terrain will shelter the aircraft or the player will not have had LOS while the aircraft approaches, for instance an aircraft making a dive from high above will almost guaranteed only be spotted by the time it opens fire.
    AA is a fickle thing, and "each footman" has the potential for carrying AA. As long as they are Heavy and as long as they are willing to reduce their damage output against all other targets. There's 5 costless infantry classes and only one has dedicated AA, and that dedicated AA is mostly detrimental to your DPS or capabilities. Even then you are assuming someone was sititng around looking for aircraft, the complete opposite of what you claim everyone should do which is grab AA as soon as an aircraft arrives, drive it off and switch back. Which incidentally also opens you up for the next airstrike, or allows aircraft to start fight-hopping. Hop into one fight, do an attack or two, hop to the next fight as AA is used to deter you, do an attack or two, rinse and repeat ad infinitum because at no point would you ever be in real danger, especially since a simultaneous draw of enough AA to kill you is unlikely.

    Sounds more like a personal problem than a game problem. ASPIS turrets render as vehicles when occupied are just as much visible as you are, so if he could see you but you couldn't see him it's a problem on your end. Also I'm on Miller europe (you Cobalt) so I doubt it's a special EU thing.

    Dude, vehicles have nothing to blend in! They stick out like a sore thumb. If you have LOS to the target you see it. Difference is that vehicles are bound by the terrain, so prediction of where one will appear is much easier than with an aircraft, not to mention that aircraft are pretty capable of hugging terrain and their high speed allows them to cover open spaces much faster, which means that even if they are detected the reaction time for the spotter is much lower.

    Good god you could flank people from the front if they started checking the skies each time there was nothing going on on the ground. Also why should an LA/Medic/Engineer/Infiltrator/non-bursterMAX/non-AA-MAX/Vehicle without AA even bother checking the skies? It's not as if they can stop the aircraft in time. They might as well try and get AA after the aircraft has attacked them, or hope that someone nearby had AA already equipped and was watching the skies. Hey we are back at the whole "let's hope someone else has AA so I can play the game with a form of normality".

    Try out some G2A lockons, maybe ask a few people you see use it and then come back. Also even if they did stick to the spawnroom for the safety it offers... Does that change the reasons why G2A locks stick to the back of the fight? Or how "well" they can deal with aircraft this way? No it doesn't.

    As I pointed out, they don't work the same. I pointed it out because I assumed you didn't know that, and I wanted to bring it to your attention. If you do not accept it there's nothing I can do about it I guess, but what I said i's true nonetheless.

    I usually take the time to change tactics, use cover and other things to keep it at dueling one at a time. There's also advantages to be gained by using one as a shield for the other, for instance by ducking beyond cover, waiting a moment for them to move up "for the kill" and then surprise them while one is blocking the other's sight. Double bonus, higher chance of survival even if it does stay a low chance.

    Statement: G2A locks is more tunnel visioning and a problem than other weapons like G2G locks.
    Your statement: If another guy comes up you only know you'll die faster.

    Wait what? So if you are using a G2G lock and an enemy tank or infantry is visibly aiming at you, you simply stand there and take it? Or do you duck behind cover and wait for them to target something else?
    G2A locks cut you off from any situational awareness. A G2G lock at least is aimed at a vehicle and has a lot of chance to give a tunnelvision view of the main enemy force. A G2A lock can be aimed at anything, but usually does not give you any hint of what is happening on the ground or anywhere else in the air because there's so much airspace to cover and so little you actually see while locking.

    So you acknowledge that something is wrong but still assume that the maximum potential is easily reached? That's unfair isn't it? That way you should say that BASR's are the pinnacle of weapons in Auraxis, eclipsing almost every other weapon in the game at any range with OHK's. But you don't do that because you know it doesn't work that way.

    Lockons should get some changes anyway, so why not instantly change them to a more skillful setting? In one change you can already remove the bugs/features that make the weapon crap, and introduce a higher skill=reward system while still allowing aircraft to deal with lock ons through dodging the lock or the missile.

    Why don't you try it out? The Skyguard is (I think) the most accurate flak weapon in the game. Try it out, tell me how successful you were. Oh you deter aircraft, but then what? The Skyguard can't switch loadouts, the aircraft are either back for another run in a minute or they are now harrassing some players in the next base. That's not an accomplishment, that's as if you feel proud that you pushed the tanks at the side of your AMP station to the other entrance. In the end the result was abysmal and may even have been detrimental to your team because now that force is concentrated somewhere else. Air deterrence is a local solution, AV can kill another tank, after which it can't move somewhere else. Those resources are then spent, destroyed and out of the game. The player needs to buy something new to use it again.

    How is it bound to fail? strategy games can balance with pure numbers, but an FPS can't. Snipers are a primary example for balancing with skill. BASR's have the potential to be the greatest weapons in the game, capable of killing more people faster than any other weapon in the game assuming normal combat scenario's (so no SAW vs 50 stacked guys at point blank range). But due to the skill required to spot, target, lead and fire these weapons cannot reach that potential. The skill required is an integral part of the design. It can't really be put into numbers, but it is there.

    Actually I'll let ExtraCredits explain:

    G2A weapons have barely any skill required in the game. That's also why their damage potentials are carefully controlled and aircraft always have an option to escape... against single targets. This is ofcourse easily circumvented by using multiple AA sources. However, it's neither fun nor engaging to use these weapons, it barely needs any skill, it does not reward you beyond "oh I've wasted X time to only push the aircraft problem to another area".
  19. Demigan

    Force everyone to be HA with one specific rocketlauncher? Well there's a fun game! Both for the HA's as well as for the aircraft! Let's make sure 4 out of 6 infantry classes are basically useless with that kind of mentality and make sure that all aircraft can do is run from lock ons all day.

    Again, there is nothing wrong with the deterrence power of G2A, there is something wrong with the idea that it should be a deterrence weapon and how this effects the game for both the ground game and the air game. You might not intend to redesign the entire airgame, but I'm making points as to why it's necessary to change the G2A and airgame.

    Lowered damage output, slower missile velocity when dumbfired equalling lower accuracy, forcing yourself to use a single class with a partially predetermined loadout.

    Except things like "diversity", "fun", "counterplay", "good game design". G2A needs changing for both the users and the aircraft.

    Oh, you drive a Prowler? If you get attacked by air, do you get out, press 2, fire lock on, press 1 and keep going? Oh wait you don't because you probably are using an engineer which will save your skin more often... Why isn't there a dedicated MBT primary AA option? Where is it? Oh probably because the developers decided all ground units could get was deterrence and making anything stronger than the Skyguard wouldn't be possible.

    How is it a logical error? It's true, it applies to the situation. Imagine if infantry only had mines to defend themselves against vehicles, how on earth would they defeat any tank that's already in position? Rush them with masses and hope the tank doesn't move back a few feet while mowing them down?

    So the aircraft tanks one shot and goes away? Are pilots on Cobalt braindead? They could be kicking your butt 6 times in the time you reload, they could make your playing experience hell, yet they move away at one missile? I think you are completely overstating how you play. You have 46% of your time spend in the Infiltrator, Medic and LA (not even counting the Engineer and MAX yet), so 46% of the time when you get attacked by air you are screwed and completely dependant on friendlies with AA to defend you.
    Anyway, even if you have a magic bubble where that doesn't happen, many other people do experience these problems.

    No, you have accomplished that a tiny portion of your team isn't under attack anymore. There's some people from your team that are now pretty angry that they are getting killed by aircraft that you deterred.
    Moving the problem is not a solution. Being effective in PS2 is build on destruction, and only G2A weapons have this completely lobsided design philosophy behind it that they are build for deterrence. It does not work well in the game, especially with aircraft that can cross the entire continent in mere minutes where ground vehicles take maybe half an hour if not more when there's fights going on.

    Actually it's both ground vehicles and infantry that's complaining, and you are really telling them that it's OK because there's one class with one set of weapons that can move the problem somewhere else? that's not even remotely close to balance.

    Hey, let's remove all primary weapons from VS players. They can use pistols to defend themselves right?
    Sure it's not exactly alike when you get down to it, but that argument does not change one bit does it? The VS could defend itself, it's just that it's not a very fun or nice way to do it. I mean, they could easily all pull vehicles with AI weapons right? Chain-pulling Flashes with Furies and Kobalts is easy enough, and those weapons also carry a ton of firepower! There, problem solved! Game to hell, but problem solved for the VS!

    And as I pointed out, saying "well they procrastinate/make the decision themselves thus it's their own fault" is completely and utterly wrong. The goal of the thread was to prove that G2A is in a good place, but it absolutely isn't. Being forced into a single class with an important part of his loadout already set? You yourself already use other classes more than half the time. We were also talking about vehicles, but you narrowed it down to infantry weapons, which would still be horrid. Vehicles are even worse off, completely stuck with their chosen loadout and having to choose between good against either ground or air. At least the HA can switch to his LMG and still has some power when dumbfiring that G2A launcher.

    "If I can't get a good result in a 1v1 no matter how skillful I am with a weapon that's supposed to be dedicated against that target even though every other weapon in the game does, then I'll complain about it on the forum".

    most want to see a change, and unfortunately most people don't have any idea on how to balance things other than "buff my weapon till it can annihilate it!". The current mechanics do not allow it without the destruction of 1/3rd of the units available in the game.

    Now if aircraft got proper counters but on the other hand aircraft could also join larger battles, it would improve the game and create more fun for most people. Sure you'll have enough sourfaces that enjoyed the previous meta and now aren't at the top because it changed, but that isn't as important as making the game fun and engaging for as many players as possible.

    That is a problem with the game's overall metagame. The value of capturing something is almost nil, there's no endgame to reach. A metagame around statistics has emerged, and not the good statistics such as "I have a high success rate at achieving objectives" but statistics such as the highly farmable KD.
    That's another thing I want to adress but for another time, and irrelevant for this discussion. In fact, it actually would mean that despite the player's focus on KD, they refuse to protect that KD against aircraft with the available AA! That's how seriously bad the G2A weapons feel to them, they aren't even willing to satisfy their self-chosen metagame by picking up G2A to protect it!

    G2A isn't weak, but it's not effective for actual solving the problem. So I made aircraft ineffective.The problem is that you cannot escape from aircraft in a vehicle but you can escape with aircraft to another fight.

    It's effective at deterrence, not at solving the actual problem.

    Through pain, blood, tears and actually making a difference by... waiting for aircraft to come back for repairs and ammo. That kind of thing. I was more effective destroying aircraft after they were done with their attack runs than actually keeping them off my team! And it always, always required the aircraft to be damaged beforehand, and even then they had a massive chance to escape.

    G2A lock ons are not an effective solution, not by far.

    And why on earth, in a game where there's someone always picking up some role, is the entire G2A scene based on procrastination? It's the biggest shoutout of this feature is crap, it needs changing that any developer can come across. Anything that's not used, especially if people actually complain about a problem that could potentially be solved by exactly that unused thing, is something that the developers should look at and change.
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  20. Foxirus

    AA is a joke right now. The other day we had to AA turrets going on one of the towers on indar. A galaxy slowly flew at them, Got down to about half health, Then literally hovered within 15m of the turret while his gunner destroyed it with the bulldog. He did the same to the other one.

    As for your comment about the ground not having enough situational awareness? Thats bull ****. Any AA unit on the ground not only has to keep an eye to the sky for any air units speeding by, But also has to keep an eye on the ground for literally everything that can easily wipe them.

    What does air have to have situational awareness for? Other air units, The occasional AA and Trees. Ground is basically a non existent threat.
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