The Real Problem with AA is Procrastination

I get that you foot-peasants (sky knight joke, for all of you that dont get sarcasm) and Scr1nRusher abhor aircraft, but its far from entirely the fault of the pilots, or the AA. Good pilots simply know their limits and when to GeeTeeEffoh- on the other hand, AA only ever care to deter planes when it's become downright impossible to get things done otherwise, and then promptly spamming AA to the point that anyone but the best pilots can survive.

Last night, I was bombarding NKey with Tullster from Tarwich Rec, all the way to Scarred Mesa, and it only took them two and a half bases of their rumps being roasted for them to do anything about it, but when they did, i saw 6 burster maxes, three skygards and so much g2a, that Tullster and I just decided to stop flying, and run the poor saps over in harassers instead.

Its far from a mechanical problem. Ground are simply far too situationally unaware at best, and apathetic as a whole, and thats why they spend so much time being farmed- because if nobody stops you until it's far too late, then you might as well take the easy kills.

So, to conclude, while pilots are partly to blame for wanting (and going for) easy kills, AA are just as much to blame for waiting until the last possible second to do anything, which they spam to the point that they lose out on counter farming, when all they needed was one or two deterrents to stand by for intimidation to begin with. Everyone has a role. If nobody wants to stand around, take one for the team, and wait for planes, thats their own problem.

I spent a year telling people to play AA for altruism and not for profitability. It doesn't catch on, especially not for people who believe they are starving for something.

That isn't very fair is it?
You spend just as much nanites on a Skyguard as on an ESF. MAXs even cost more.
Skyguards are only effective against air units. They can be used against infantry and tanks, but in both they are severely outclassed. The MAX has the same problem.
ESFs are useful against air, vehicles and infantry and can effectively be used against all at the same time. MAX units can change their loadouts, but still are outclassed by ESFs in every way. Even cert costs are generally higher due to having to cert 2 arms.

So now we get to a major problem. You either kill or deter air. Then what? A great many players don't have the patience to stay around and keep moving to key points to deter further air. You need to stay away from most enemy forces at the same time as you have barely any effectiveness against anything. MAX units are the only ones who can at least change their class. Still, they can be wrecked by any pro ESF fighter, no matter how skilled the MAX is. The MAX simply can't match the firepower, maneuverability and survivability of the ESF.

Also, did we mention that you often need multiple sources of AA to be effective? So you need to either buy air to counter air, or get some teamwork and of the ground and spend more people and nanites to be effective. Unfair in all categories.

TL, DR:
Air is more fun, generally costs less, has more effectiveness in both power and diversity and can all be done alone while air is the opposite. No wonder you don't encounter much AA.

get real.

if i smack you with an anni, you run.
if i smack you with my sundie, you run.

so many times ive had skyjocks fire on me thinking it's an easy kill, till i switch seats and then said skyjock realizes those aren't 50 cals on the roof. suddenly, she wants to run for the warp gate.

my sundie laughs and chews on the dead bones of your sky dildoz

You neglect to mention that,
1) Heavies, once you buy a 650 cert Empire Specific g2a launcher (125 less than skyguard for a lightning), no actual further investment is required.
2) Air can also be countered by your own air, but that takes more effort that most are completely unwilling to put forth, once again leading the blame back to the defenders.
3) When ESFs go air to ground, more often than not, they effectively sacrifice their means to defend themselves from other air, which refers us back to point 2.

Horrible grammar and unecessary rated XXX references aside, good on you for being proactive.

One arm. Extended magazines are very helpful, yes, but not necessary

In general, as a source of G2A (G2A AA?), you do not to be put into a position or manever yourself into said position of fighting Air in a head-to-head matchup. Always have a prepared means to break away from any hypothetical direct encounter.

If i bothered with signatures that would be going straight on there!
Although technically a manoeuvre requires skill, but i digress.

TBH i think thats a problem with all infantry vs vehicle interactions in this game, players generally expect to be able to fight vehicles head on 1v1.

There should be a way of us suggesting hints and tips that appear in the loading screens, this would be perfect.

The thing is, when flying ESFs, the skill ceiling compared to the skill-floor is a gap so vast, that skilled pilots can easily kill gankers even with their hybrid A2G loadouts, even when jumped. If the same situations was to occur in a tank (a HE tank being jumped by an AP tank in the rear) there aren't many chances for the HE tank in surviving. You simply have to be incredibly bad to not win at those odds, whereas in the ESF game, I routinely see those pilots shrugging off gank attempts by 2 ESFs (not that it happens in every situation, but it happens far more often than the same does on the ground for instance). Not saying air should be nerfed or anything, but that is a situation 99/100 pilots never mention. The very-skilled pilots are simply nearly impossible to kill unless you can 1-shot them or they "dun goofed".

Oh, and then there are Libs which, even in a A2G loadout, can still defend themselves from air effectively.

Regarding 2): If the same was applicable in any other shape or form in this game, I would accept it. Since it only applies to aircraft, I fail to acknowledge it as a legit argument for air being balanced.

You neglect to mention that an ESF is more likely to die to a Titan AP round or a Dalton round than a AA launcher. Heck friendly collisions kill more ESFs than all the AA launchers combined basically which gives a great show how "effective" it is to deter anyone or anything. Worst case scenario the Lib/ESF simply flies in the corners and do runs in or use rockets at 300m etc.

These types of debates always amuse me; you see the tanks (the supposed armored MBTs) sitting further away than the enemy air in any fight basically yet air cries foul the moment anyone starts talking about actually making AA deadly rather than "deter them" which means sod all in practice when they simply fly in and out as they see fit. Tanks are not deterred to join in; they are killed...

lol if you dont want to get lolpoded get flak armor i have it and i barely die to air

Those pilots who do shrug off ganks are rare, very skilled, and really dont need to complain because they know how to avoid being shot at by MBTs in the first place.

Okay then why can't we tune air to be more...altruistic??

It's always so one-sided whenever this topic comes up. Ground users need to use more teamwork. Ground users need to have more skill. Ground users need to use AA like it's charity, not to have fun and get kills....

You say that as if those two things are inseparable.

Do you know why people give to charity? Because it makes them feel good. They get an immense personal feeling of satisfaction from it. They do NOT do it because they care about others.

Same thing with AA. People don't want to use it, because it sucks and isn't rewarding. It's only pulled when air is literally crowding the skies and even then it's like pulling teeth to get people to use it.

I did say that air can be countered by itself. When air itself is better at countering air than dedicated counters of equal or more money, there is something wrong aint there? Especially when air is still much more effective at larger ranges than dedicated AA. Also in the G2A scenario air is still effective against EVERYTHING, as they simply miss only some power over dedicated A2A ESFs. They can attack infantry, vehicles, A2G ESFs, Libs, Whales and (a bit less well) A2A ESFs despite the reductionnof some AA power.

The lock on rockets don't really merrit a response. Several seconds lock, a missile that can be outboosted or outsmarted, as well as a cheap dedicated counter against locks for several seconds. The infantry can be killed easily too and the fact that the air isn't full of them AND that most ESFs don't have flares say that they aren't such a problem as other more expensive sources.

I was referring to the MAX being able to attack both infantry, vehicles and air. You can do this with one MAX when switching weapons, but you are inconveniencing yourself as you can't do all at the same time, pay more certs and pay more nanites.
Secondly, a G2A counter that should never take air, the thing it counters, head on? Especially when you pay more nanites? That is like having an AV MBT not going head on to a viper lightning, as you know, it shouldn't. One is a direct counter and more expensive and the other is a more general attack vehicle that is faster.
For me it should go like this;
No nanites<some nanites<lots of nanites
No counter<counter
And make combinations with that. Keep in mind that these are gray scales. A counter against something of the same nanite cost should generally win, not always. Something that costs more nanites should generally win, not always.
As in this case more expensive of equal counters are trumped by their equal or less expensive non-counters, I see something severely wrong. Especially as you need several counters before they become effective and little more to become a death zone, which makes poor gameplay for BOTH parties.

So to summarize,
You allmighty Lord Skyknight deserving easy farm.
Me ground peasent with no skillz.
Anti Air evil spammerz with no skillz not deserving fun or XP.
.
Did I get you right? I mean at least you didnt write like I did in the above. But well, I still dont get your point.

So what? that's your call, the same kind of call you're making by not buying/pulling a G2A launcher or learning/flying your own A2A ESF. The game isn't going to walk you to victory because you pick an option, nor is it always going to offer you a superior option just because it also happens to be your preferential one.
No one ever declared that the dual Burster MAX was or had to be the most optimal solution, just that it was an option

One-word argument: Harassers.

Balancing things by nanites or by certification cost just doesn't work. We've visited, addressed, and come back time and again to the possibilities and the so-called injustices but, in the end, we just have to accept that it won't work. It just doesn't work to try to build balance that way. That amount of detail wasn't paid to the game. The MAX costs 450 flat and it doesn't care what you're attaching to its arms; the same that an ESFs cost 350 flat and it doesn't care what you're strapping under its wings.

Have you ever wondered why most of players wait to spawn AA? OMG have you ever tried to fight Max vs Max using a Burster? Or fight against ground vehicles / infantry using a Skyguard?

Anti Aircraft is only decent at damaging aircraft and it's awful against everything else. What the hell did you expect? People to spawn Skyguards to fight against Vanguards?

That's the huge difference between G2A and A2G weapons. The first are extremely powerful and flexible, the second are weak and very specific. That's what makes some many upset with current balancing. If you play Bursters or Skyguard you might scare aircraft but pilots are likely to fly away, get repair and come back. But if you are a Skyguard or infantry and you are in the crosshair of weapons like the Tankbuster or the Airhammer you are instakilled without being able to do anything.

Oh, yes, you're right, if this is unfair then it must be fault of ground forces.

The whole air combat system is broken and needs to be revamped.