The Problem with Ravens

VKPH for Ravens, Vortex, and Fractures Right Arm
VKPH for R, V, and F Left Arm
Average BR for Ravens, Vortex, and Fractures
Playtime for R, V, and F
Interesting.....
All have more KPH on Left than Right, but Raven has much greater VKPH and Fractures much closer VKPH to Vortex.....


As you can see, Ravens hold a slight (11% VPKH) advantage on right arm and 27% on left arm advantage over Vortex and much more over Fractures. This can't be explained by factoring in BR, as the Average for Vortex and Ravens is virtually the same. This is fine, with asymmetrical balance and all that. PPA hold an 15% advantage over Canister in the KPH department with the same Average BR as well. The average of 27 and 11 is 19, so a a little nerf to Ravens and we both get to keep what we have? deal ?

The real problematic thing about Ravens, however, is this:
KPH for R, V, and F Left Arm
KPH for R, V, and F Right Arm
As you can see, Ravens have almost double the KPH of Vortex and Fracture. This cannot be accounted for in the VKPH. Ravens simply outshine the other 2 ESMAXAV options in dealing with infantry assailants. This may seem small, but this means that a Raven MAX and Engineer can hold out much longer and against many more infantry than a Vortex or Fracture (thanks Alkezo!) MAX can.

TL;DR
Nerf raven AI?

Whoops, edited.

Ravens are truly the only "Broken" weapons the NC have. No nerf required, simply buff the Fractures and Vortexes differently. Maybe increase splash for Fractures and increase shield damage caused by the Vortex? I don't know, just make them as good as the Ravens, not better, not worse.

This is one case where nerfs are warranted. A dual Raven MAX should not be able to easily take down infantry as he/she has devoted himself to an AV role.

If it's kill per hour. Is it taking into account every person?

There's a pretty big NC population.

Wouldn't be surprised if the NC killed more per hour.

Its average kills per hour for everyone who has it and uses it.

Well, why not make the Vortex and Fracture as good as the Raven? You don't really need a nerf when you can buff the opposites.

Because every Raven is only killing 3.6-4.0 vehicles per hour across all of the servers... Next time, actually click on the links before posting.

I'll have to disagree. The vortex doesn't need buffing, so with that as a standard for comparison, the Ravens would probably need to be nerfed instead.

I'm certain TR and NC don't want to see the Vortex buffed.

Not to mention that vehicles have been promised a reduced infantry AV capability.

lol, if Forums are too pro-nerf, you're too pro-buff. Long range AV is hard enough to deal with as it is, so you should be able to easily take down long range AV if you get close.

Don't really see a problem with this, considering NC MAX' lack of other long-range AI weapons.

TR have a similar advantage vs. NC/VS when comparing pounders/comets/falcons.

The problem isn't that its "long range" which it really isn't. Its the fact that a really good AV weapon can do well vs infantry, while its counterparts do not.

Problem in arguing with numbers though is also the fact how the weapons are used and also trying to cludge it into 'fitting' a reasoning.

As a user of all the weapons, the Vortex are crap for infantry fighting. The Ravens are slightly better, but only slightly better. The Fractures are also slightly better mostly because of spamming, but again, this is highly subjective in the kind of fight engagement and ranges. At closer ranges, the Raven is not going to be much better than the Vortexes because some good infantry can avoid it. The fractures are more likely to do better at closer ranges.

The Ravens are more successful in dealing with it because it has both guidance and aoe ability, but its drawback is also the fact that unlike the fractures, you still want to engage at medium range with few obstructions to yield the best kills. The times I have killed infantry is due to infantry being too stupid in how to deal with it or in killing zones that allow it to be good. Vortexes fail at this due to a lack of meaningful aoe, but this is the drawback to the higher muzzle velocity, which means people have to be close to accurate, which is another issue with the Vortex being an Anti-Infantry type weapon.

Fractures are a little bit inbetween, allowing more rounds and less need to be 'accurate' and being able to do the aoe damage to hit targets. But the number of times to hit a target for infantry, is higher due to the lack of heavy punch, but for medium to short range vehicle engagements, it is slightly better than the Pounder. Pounder is more ideal for short range engagements with the higher output, but long and medium range, the fracture is better, especially for doing damage at longer ranges versus a pray and spray with the pounder.

The reason the Raven scores higher in the VKPH and Infantry again is players who don't know how to handle it. Just as the Vortex complainers against its ability to hit at much longer ranges is ignoring the fact that if you leave yourself in a wide open area to allow the VS to hammer with Lancers and Vortexes, they will win out because the weakness of the Vortex and Lancer is the fact it DOESN'T hit nearly as hard. Just as the Raven is horribad at things past 350-400m or so because a vehicle with cannons can outrange that, at closer ranges, the ravens are less damage than dual falcons where you want to get a lot of damage in quickly, but Ravens, while they hit hard, they are slow to roll it out because of the delay between missile firings are almost on par to the Falcons, which means less DPS.

Over all, the combat 'feel' cannot be argued with numbers because you are using numbers bereft of how the numbers are gathered. We can argue til we are blue in the fact of how much C4 is abused as crap or how much we all hate it and also see how it isn't played out the way people make the numbers be either.

I did...how the hell did you think I came to that conclusion?

I thought this thread would be about being hit by invisible laser-accurate AV MAXes from outside render distance.

I am disappointed.

If you should nerf an AV weapon because it is too good at AI, then start with AV grenades. Or just re-lable them "high-radius" grenades or something.

I think the only nerf Ravens need is range reduction, same thing with Vortex and Lancer or actually make them render, one of the two.

Ravens won't be a problem if NC AI max range options weren't really lackluster, one of the contributing factors of Ravens users doing AI because of the range benefits that you don't get from slugs or shotguns.

Edit, minor formatting