The problem with Pump Actions...

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Chiss, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. datfluttershy

    It's demand vs. balance. In that reguard since we can only messure demand precisely, SOE doesnt think about balance, because everyone could buy a shotgun if they want to. Yes it's broken and it lowers fun in CQC (which is about 70% of all Infantry battles). Don't get me wrong i am not defending the OHK Shotgun, i think it is the worst piece of SC grabbin **** SOE threw at us this far, but if you look back: Anihilator was nerfed because ppl said its OP and spammed the forum with lock-on QQ, SMG was not nerfed because most ppl were happy with them (and mostly used them). Now we have to see if there is more Shotgun haters, or users. Ultimatly that will decide rather or not it will see a nerf, or if SOE throws another roflstomping invention from the SC-Gods Blueprints into the Auraxian ring of Kids, pissed elder players and unemployed 15 hour a day gamers.
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  2. Pengalor

    Lol not sure where you play but I see very few shotguns. I still mostly see Heavies with LMGs and Light assaults and Medics with high ROF rifles. In fact, I very rarely see shotguns at all and most of the time they are semis/autos.

    On a side note, I love all the people saying it's a 'low-skill, high-reward' weapon. It's such a great argument because it has no objective basis and is entirely dependent on their imagined scenarios. It also conveniently ignores all of it's downfalls. You guys make it sound like it's some uber-weapon and anyone who picks it up will have their KDR improve. It's not even close. Using one requires tactical planning, you need to know where you're going, you have to be ready to react at a moment's notice and you have to have enough confidence in your aim to land that first shot or you are in serious trouble (which tends to happen a lot because of the horrid hit registration and the recent lag). The reason people hate them is because they think they are 'unfair'. There is never any real logical justification for this. What they fail to understand is every other weapon gives you the illusion that you might have pulled it off and for some reason that's enough to satisfy a lot of people. They don't seem to realize that someone who is able to take you out with that weapon could just about as easily take you out with another shotgun or an SMG or carbine. Hell, the SMGs and carbines are no different except they have a slightly higher TTK but they get the benefit of range. Most people I see using SMGs ans carbines are hip-firing them with adv. laser sights. This is no different from a pump-action except the pump-action will kill slightly faster at the tradeoff of all of its range. People who think that extra tenth of a second in the TTK would have changed their fate should stop kidding themselves.
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  3. Xasapis

    I play on Miller.

    If you play pretty much on every outpost,chances are you are within the killing range of shotguns. There are entire outfits that using nothing but those, combining the mobility of the infantry with the lethality of an NC max. IF you are using any other weapon than a shotgun, you're operating on a handicap. They don't need aiming. They don't need any particular tactical planning either. All you need to do is run from cover to cover and vaporate any unsuspected soul that bumps into you. The game just doesn't have another weapon that you can enter a room and kill five people, before they can react to it (nor it needs them imo).

    The only reason shotguns are introduced in games is because not all people can aim. In this aspect, they should be there. They just shouldn't dominate any other CQC weapon in the game. It looks like the data agrees with my assessment, thus a first balancing pass has already been made. Personally, I don't think it is enough. The shotgun users are not punished enough for the rare chance that they miss, considering the success rate of the weapon.
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  4. PS2Freak

    Xasapis plays dramaqueen and over dramatizing.

    I play on Miller, and Shotguns are not the Issue here.

    also he is qq-nerf warrior. and i say to you Xasapis - nerf yourself. l2p. and dont be sissie.. what a bs, every weapon is point and click.

    Skill in game ? hahaha.. you dont need aiming any of weapons. ezpz.

    shotguns are prefered Cqc weapons and are here to stay!

    maybe you xasapis r freeloader... or something, all your posts are about nerfing this or that. something bad in your life maybe ? or maybe you are teenager with bad nerve costum. maybe you dont learned to lose sometimes ?
  5. Xasapis

    There are weapons that are easier to use and weapons that are harder to use. Battle rifles are hard to use. Certain carbines and LMGs are. All the heavy HA weapons (lasher, T7 & Jackhammer). There are weapons that are good all rounders, not very hard but not that easy either. Then there are weapons that are silly easy to use. Shotguns belongs to this category (I should say belonged really, but we don't know yet if they need further tweaking, SOE does. Claiming that all weapons have the same skill cap to use is simply not true. Chaiming also that you don't need to aim is untrue as people with good aim and reflexes will dominate those who just spray bullets towards the general direction of a target.

    Edit: We're resorting to personal insults I see. That is unfortunate and unproductive.
    Edit 2: The data will dictate weapon balance. Somebody with a broken OP weapon with his hands will obviously cry L2P to shut people up, it's just human nature.
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  6. PS2Freak


    new wallpaper for your desktops, dear shotguns nerfers.
  7. PS2Freak

    In My perception shotguns are not the problem.

    ofcourse everybody have their own perception.

    but i play same game as you, on same server, getting killed by vs and tr shotguns, and i have NO problem at all..

    that should say smtg to you. [ perception is relative, never objective ]

    the shotguns are fine, some players personal nerve costumes are thin.

    and sorry that i get personal, i just sick of this nerf threads, xasapis, mate.
  8. Aegie

    They already nerfed shotguns.

    Will they nerf them again? Perhaps.

    Anyone who comes to complain and then says "well, the data will show..." should know that by adding your "nerf shotguns... the data will show" you are basically not allowing the data to be the ultimate arbiter. In effect, if the data shows something is out of tune then they will probably try to tune it. There has been an enormous amount of complaints about the shotguns and guess what- they looked at those complaints and the data and decided on the changes they felt they needed to make.

    Now, they make these changes and people continue to complain. Fair enough, only, if you wanted the data alone to dictate what does and does not need changing then you would probably not waste your time in the forums complaining- unless you think your complaint will make the difference and that is problematic. It is one thing to point something out and say "hey, look at this- are you sure it should be working this way?" and it is another to launch crusade after crusade against something. While the former expresses your opinion and alerts the developers to something that may need attention, the latter is almost purely a campaign to make changes based upon outcry and not data.

    There are lots of threads in these forums on shotguns- maybe take the time to find one and add to it next time or perhaps present the argument from a different angle, in a different light, or with more or different evidence.
  9. VexTheRaven

    I've been shot by a shotgun at 20m.
  10. FluffyM

    You are correct, people like me who have been playing class-based shooters and videogames in general for a long-*** time, who understand game-design and what is important for a fun experience for everyone, don't "get" the group of people that "say 'no' to all nerfs". Please, please, please: get out.

    @People above...we're talking about OHK PAS exclusively, simmer down.
  11. siiix

    i play video games since comodor64, so dont tell me your better them me , this isnt frekin counter strike ... go play something else that you actually like and dont try to mess up this game for people who actualy like it as it was released.. you guys completely destroy the game and say your represent the majority ... i call that BULL
  12. Xasapis

    I actually think that it works the other way round. The data is already there. People make a hypothesis on the forums. This hypothesis can be confirmed by the data or disproved by it. However, if noone makes the hypothesis in the first place, noone will question the established structure and no adjustments will be made. In this regard, all balance requests should be considered, however only those that are confirmed by data should be processed and approved.

    It is true that there will be people that will make outrageous requests on the forums. It is human nature to see one side of the equation unfortunately and not the bigger picture. While people can dismiss those requests, it is interesting to see why they were made in the first place.
  13. FluffyM

    Obviously we don't represent the majority, casual bads do, people who liked the ridiculous planetside-branded mess this game was released as (and still is). Thanks, bye.

    P.S.: I am better "them you".
    P.P.S.: Please don't quote me anymore with your thread-derailing, stupid-*** drivel.
  14. NeverWas

    the only weapon i regreted buying ... was the nyx, now it's the deimos
  15. Pengalor

    I like how you talk about 'data' deciding everything and then 90% of your assertions are baseless nonsense. Please, allow me to dispel your utter nonsense.

    -"operating on a handicap": No, that's based on personal skill. I use the ac-x11 all the time in bases against shotgun users, I never feel like I'm at a handicap and any time on of them kills me I can point out exactly what I did wrong and what I can do to stop that situation from happening again. If you can't then maybe you should work on your tactical thinking.

    -"They don't need aiming": It's virtually the same as hip-firing an SMG or high ROF carbine. Both are just pointing at the enemy and holding the mouse button. Neither require bursting or controlled fire. The only difference is in CQB if you miss with the pump shotgun then you have an exponentially higher chance of losing the fight wheres as SMGs and carbines (as well as the other shotguns) have a much higher margin for error.

    -"They don't need planning": Sure, you can just herp derp head on into enemies, maybe get a few kills, you can do that with any weapon. However, you're not going to get far doing so. With an assault rifle you can more or less run around aimlessly and just shoot at anyone you see in the distance. With a pump shotgun, if you plan to survive longer than 30 seconds, you need to know where you are going, where your cover is, and where your outs are. If you don't you will back yourself into a corner or get yourself caught out in the open and you'll be destroyed.

    -"kill five people before they can react": Now this is clearly just exaggeration. The only way you are going to kill five people before they can react is if they are deaf, dumb, and blind (or complete morons). The refire rate is slow enough that even with really bad players they will know you are there by the second shot. Your average player will hear the first shot and you'll already be taking fire (this also assumes you somehow found a room where every person in the room is not looking at a doorway which almost never happens in my experience).

    -"Only introduced for people who can't aim": Cool, some unfounded bull**** because your arguments weren't already weak enough. Like I said before, they required just as much aim as many other hip-fire weapons with much less tolerance for missing. That's the entire idea of "high-risk, high-reward".

    -"They should dominate other CQC weapons": I sure hope this is a joke. If they weren't the best at CQC they would be entirely useless. In fact, the funny thing is most of the people who want to nerf them to 2 hit kills suggest making them less of a CQC weant to make them a 2 hit kill but give them more range. That's not how they were designed. They were designed so you need to be right on someone to truly have the upper hand and that's exactly how they work.

    -"The data agrees with me": You don't really have any proof of that. It's my personal opinion that the balance pass was done to try and appease some of the whiners in the forums. Maybe that's wrong, I don't know either but we were incredibly lucky this time around that they just almost made them useless instead of completely ruining them. Further nerfing would just make them pointless (especially with the hit detection problems in the game).

    -"Not punished enough for missing": Maybe you are just playing against some terrible people. I get punished plenty if I miss. Like I mentioned earlier, missing means my chances of losing the fight go up exponentially. Seems like what you would want is for the shotgun user to immediately lose if they don't get the 1 hit kill in the first shot which is just terrible design.
  16. siiix

    yes because your the ruler "who is allowed post here and who can not" ... what are you a wanna be tread and opinion dictator ;)

    again if i want to play counter strike and similar "skill based" games i do .. if i want to play something more relaxing i should have the right to do so .. why make every freking game on the planet identical .. this is what you dont get.. just for the record
  17. Pengalor

    "I think this game is a mess but I still play it/come to the forums because I like being angry about stuff!"

    Just leave if you hate the game so much.
  18. Rentago



    but no, pump actions are kind of fine, except for the whole one shot at point blank range, and a lot of combat is done at that range, auto shotguns give you the ability to atleast melt someone at close range if you can land your shots, but the pump only requires you to really make only one shot count.

    That comes down more to a game design issue that doesn't really allow people to do long range combat, since jump pads, and teleporters, and everything else just shoves you right into close quarters and there is no advance just a in your face zerg or they give up and go somewhere else.