The Problem with HE Rounds.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. Scr1nRusher

    Is that they are designed for Massive infantry rushes....... something that rarely happens in planetside 2.(which is ironic..... probally because HE)

    Now Since HE can be equipted by anyone with a Tank the Mass damage amount in big fights can get crazy.

    HE was originally designed for Field battles.(which is why it has the radius it does)

    So.... What happens when you shoot a Round that was designed for AI area control into a small structure?

    Certs(and dead bodies) pile up.

    the problem with HE is that It really shouldn't be on the MBT's.

    HEAT rounds already fill that role, by being Decent vs all targets, and having better splash then AP rounds(which are designed to deal with Armored targets/base defenses).

    HE just feels un-needed on the MBT, While on the lightning HE rounds work well.

    But you could Take the creative approach and remove HE rounds from all tanks and instead put it on a separate Tank entirely.

    Such as a Empire Specific Battle Tank,

    Battle tanks would be the middle ground between lightnings and MBT's(interms of HP, speed, and armor). But they would only be able to use HE rounds.

    This would leave MBT's as HEAT and AP users, making them more of a MBT.

    This would leave lightnings with Skyguards,Vipers, AP, and HEAT rounds.... making them versatile Tanks.

    BT's would just have HE rounds, meaning They wouldn't do well against other tanks, but they would do well suppressing infantry, however since they would be more fragile then the MBT's yet slower and more armored then lightening's it would have its place in a diverse battlefield.
  2. Pikachu

    What difference would it make to remove HE from MBT? HEAT does it's job better.
    • Up x 4
  3. ADFXOzymandias

    In all honesty, a medium tank would be more out of place than the HE is. Personally I use AP because I find it more productive to hunt and kill the Sunderer spawning the infantry than to just sit there and HE the constant wave. Since the Lightning already has a HEAT and an HE it once again seems out of place to have another tank.

    In my experience the main reason armor columns even get started is when a platoon leader orders their platoon to pull armor. In the majority of situations I even use armor, my first go to is AP rounds because I'm more effective against their tanks and Sunderers. I don't even think about using HE since my gunner or our infantry tend to kill the attacking infantry anyways.

    My main problem is that the lightning fills the role of a "BT" anyways. They're versatile enough, especially with an upgraded defense slot, to deal with infantry and provide supporting fire on tanks. Here's where I think a medium tank would just gum up the works and not really be used at all. If you take a Lightning up against a Vanguard, Prowler, or Magrider, chances are greatly in their favor even if you have an AP gun attached. If you're a skilled player, you can use the Lightning's speed to your advantage and make it difficult for an MBT to land successful hits. With the HE gun, you will not survive an encounter with an MBT. And that is my problem with another tank. It would have the same functionality as a HE Lightning, minus the speed and maneuverability. It's armor would presumably be somewhere between that of an MBT and a Lightning, but that would really only require another successful hit to destroy it, and with a gun that's useless against tanks it puts me back to my previous point. What could this new tank do that the Lightning already can?

    If anything I would agree that the HE seems out of place for the MBT since their role is to destroy enemy armor and Sunderers, not necessarily hunt infantry. Sure it can be used for that, but with an HE turret it leaves it completely vulnerable to any sort f enemy armor.

    In short, the Lightning is already equipped to be a good anti infantry tank, and a good tank to flank the enemy with it's speed. In my honest opinion, a medium battle tank would be more out of place with only one gun choice and one type of effectiveness already offered by another tank.
  4. Shinrah

    Clearly a post by someone who was not present during the release of PS2. Otherwise you wouldn´t complain about the sad sate of HE´s today.
    At release the reload speed of HE guns was ~30% faster, the AoE was ~50% larger, the max DMG AoE was ~50% larger, the DMG of HE shells was slightly higher and most people didn´t have Flakk Armor.
    That was a time when your thread might have had a point. As it is now most MBT´s will use HEAT (Prowler/Magrider) instead of HE shells due to faster reload, less projectile drop, better velocity and thus useability (accuracy). The Vanguards HEAT sucks due to it´s long default reload so most VG´s simply use AP guns and don´t care much about AI due to a lack of decent AI options.

    The HE also has the significant disadvantage of dealing almost no DMG to armor, if your MBT or Lightning meets enemy armor your only option is to run.

    Lightnings btw rarely use HE, or lets say only those who still don´t know that the C75 Viper is awesome use HE. The Viper has less splash sure, but in the hands of decent players it can be way more deadly due to the option of single firing 6 shots which all have the potential of killing something. It´s also more versatile and useable against armor.

    So nope, I don´t think HE guns are a problem. Especially because anything with Flakk armor needs a direct hit of an MBT´s HE canon to die. Anything with Flakk that isn´t within the inner radius of the explosion loses it´s shields tops.
    • Up x 1
  5. Pikachu

    Dafaq I don't remember any of those huge differences. o_O There was some changes to radius and the increase in reload time and reduction in velocity. These -50% everywhere sounds taken out of thin air. HE user nostalgia?
  6. Archiadus

    I personally think that the problem is not so much that they can do high damage, it's how easy it is for tanks to shoot inside small buildings / towers / you name it with HE / Heat rounds.

    A way to fix this, doesn't have to be exactly like this it's just my 2 certs, would be put force shields in the doors and windows of bases ( like the ones that spawn rooms have ). These shields would prevent any explosive rounds from going in and out, so no heavy assault / engineer is going to kill your tank from the inside while you can't shoot back, bullets / grenades / radar darts / infantry of all factions regardless of who owns the base would be able to pass it as if the shield wasn't there.

    That way tanks / air can't kill you from the outside, you can't kill them from the inside and infantry would be able to keep playing as it is now. We'd have a solution to a problem without ruining any weapons or placing ridiculously high walls around every building. :)
  7. z1967

    We don't need a new vehicle if it is going to do the job of a current one (the Lightning). So no.

    Aside from that, Prowler HE is kinda what got everything nerfed. Lock-down basically gets rid of all of the disadvantages that normal HE has by default. So hence why its the farming tank and why we can't have nice things.
  8. Pondera

    I can see HE rounds being useful. For instance, launch one into a crowded room and just watch the magic happen. They're very good siege laying tools where direct hits are a rarity. You're just shooting everywhere on a tower base hoping to hit someone. They're meant to be indiscriminate.

    However, on an MBT? Not a good idea. You're expected to go up against other MBTs, and having HE ammo will put you at a critical disadvantage. Besides, the main default gun is more than sufficient for siege laying AND tank combat. On a lightning, however, if you engage an enemy tank head on, you're probably going to die very quickly. Lightnings are shoot and scoot infantry killers that occasionally peck at enemy tanks. So, I can definitely see HE rounds letting a Lightning do their main job better.

    It's either that, or the Viper. AP rounds on a lightning is just begging for heartbreak as MBTs can just swat them like flies.
  9. Shinrah

    Nope, might not be the exact numbers but the HE nerfs were massive, deservedly so. I´m not dwelling in nostalgia, I only recenlty got myself the Auraxium medal for the Magrider HE because I didn´t use it much at release, and only recently put it into a PPA + Proxy + HE setup for my Mag.

    HE was the end all weapon against infantry. You could take out entire groups without direct hits so it was nerfed fairly early and kept getting nerfs ever since. The reload speed was a "rather" recent nerf as far as I remember. Also HE rounds weren´t always nerfed specifically there were some general nerfs to all AoE effects that impacted HE but weren´t mainly targeted towards HE rounds.

    I think they are fine currenty, if you´d nerf them anymore then there would literally be no point to them anymore. As it is now the only reason I have one on my Magrider is because it has a good synergy with the PPA. You deal some general dmg / kill shields the PPA takes out the bruised infantry or vice versa. HE without a secondary AI gun isn´t effective since only direct hits kill Flakk´d infantry. That´s why you´ll see more HEAT rounds used against infantry in general. For the Magrider the HEAT canon is superior as a standalone AI weapon because it´s easier to hit infantry and the splash is decent enough, at the same time the reload speed is significantly better allowing for a higher margin of error when missing shots.
  10. Klypto

    Seriously, who uses HE?

    It's a gun you pull for a very specific purpose, like there's a bunch of infantry packed in Snake Ravine, so pull HE and get like 40-50 kills out of the gun before you loose the tank to enemy armor / air or the battle ends and you now have no use. Not many people actually pull HE on MBT's because it kinda sucks at everything else.

    For a gun specifically designed to get mad kills on infantry, it's the least used and gets the lowest kills per month (even AP gets more kills). The only reason I have 5K+ HE shell kills is because there was nothing to really stop me on launch month when I got the first 4,500 kills as there was no flack armor and Tech plants were a pure insanity fun house where you could park a Vanguard in the back by the two doors and spam people trying to come in..
    • Up x 2
  11. Pikachu

    You'll all hate me for this but I wish HE shells had proxy detonation for infantry. :rolleyes:
    • Up x 1
  12. LuNaTIcFrEAk

    This one sentence answers your whole post. HE is fine, the fact that buildings are so badly designed that you can shoot into the center of them is the issue. There is no good reason whatsoever for tank shells to be able to hit inside the dead center of towers or more than a few feet into any building.
  13. LibertyRevolution

    The problem with HE rounds is that they even exist.
    • Up x 3
  14. Ice

    HE rounds shouldn't even exist.
    • Up x 2
  15. WyrdHarper

    ~Slight tangent ahead~

    I've always thought it would be better if instead of equipping a different cannon, you instead unlocked different Ammo types, and then you could manually choose how many of each type to carry in your tank. Press a button to switch ammo types (like you switch fire modes with infantry weapons). It would be an alternate way to fix the very common "right loadout, wrong time" issues people have because of the restrictions.
    • Up x 2
  16. Alarox

    Beat me to it.
    • Up x 1
  17. AltF4Fun

    I dont know one person that has not swaped the HE for Viper on the lightning.So even there they are meh.
  18. Pikachu

    Only AP then? Tanks are to shoot only each other?
    • Up x 1
  19. Ice

    AP and HEAT are good enough. Tanks should be shooting each other - what to you think happens to the infantry when their side runs out of armor? Having a HEAT or even AP vehicle against an infantryman is easily enough of an advantage. Tanks are force multipliers in their own right because of damage output, armor, and mobility. They don't need to be capable of killing 6 guys per shot instead of 2.
  20. JudgeDeath

    Who uses HE these days anyway ?

    Its usually AP rounds that the enemy tanks are sniping with. Must be fun having projectile velocities above girls 7-10 baseball league pitchers.