The issue with Liberators from my experience

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Hamox, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. Hamox

    I just have read someone saying:
    Flying takes more skill than running/driving. Lib requires more teamwork. More skill + more teamwork = better K/D ratio

    I have read a lot about "OP Lib" so I thought I give it a go and try out myself to see what exactly is the problem.
    Now, first the counter:
    The only thing that really was dangerous to the lib was the ASF becouse you could not run away that easily. Only chance is to try to fly into friendly AA and hope that a friendly ASF (in my case skythe) comes and helps you. Well, this sort of fight was, on a timeline, maybe 5% of the total time.
    Most of the time it runns like following:
    You fly around and search for ground targets. As soon as you see one it is an easy kill, except the other lib was faster. So it is more a air-race...

    A little true story, happened just a few moments ago on Miller, Amerish:
    It was during night time, the Zephyr had a Thermo-Optics equiped. I was the gunner and I saw a sunderer. I told my pilot to what direction to fly. Once in good range I started to shoot at that sunderer. It stopped and deployed and was full of people. The people left the Sundi, 2 AA MAX, a few HA and some other stuff. On Thermo I could see all that juicy targets and I just fired the Zephyr into the group, 6 shoots and most was dead, then reload and take out the last AA MAX that survived, then reload again and take out the Sundy and everything that has respawned. A few of the guys try to hide behind trees or rocks but they had no chance to hide, the Thermo or IR Optics just discovers everything! Booom, kill, XP!
    After this nice "jackpot" that gave me around 3-4k XP my pilot saw one more fully loaded Sundi. We just used 20 shoots on the first battle so we had enough ressources to engage the second Sundi. Same procedure, I think only one AA MAX this time but I am not sure. We ended up with more than 25 kills in total, 2 Sundis, 3 or 4 AA MAX and about 7k XP. The Lib still had about 70% of its health, we repped it quickly and continued hunting.

    Now, what I do want to say: Who ever says that the Gunner needs special skills just doesn't speak the truth! I have no idea how many tanks, sundis and infantry I have took out in a 3 hours session, too many...
    The special teamwork? Where? You just stop at the warpgate and you have more potential gunners than you need.
    If people think that this is teamplay than they do not know what real teamplay is.
    The first Sunderer we killed was full of teamplay, they jumped off the Sundi, spread out, they had their AA MAXes, Engis, HAs, everything. A well organized squad, 12 people! But unfortunately they crossed their way with me, a brand new Lib Gunner with a Zephyr and Thermo Optics. Now I am the one with the teamplay and the skill, right?

    Fact is, a Lib farms easy XP, you even do not need to aim too much, the splash damage will do its job and if you miss it doesn't matter becouse your enemy can not kill you, you just shoot and shoot until the enemy is dead. Simple and easy, even for people who have zero skill.
    I am not asking to nerf or to change, I just want to share my experience with Libs!
    I am now going back to my usual gameplay, Infantry and Tanks. I just enjoy this more, even though I now know that I can make much more and much easier XP and Certs as a Lib Gunner!

    But lets take a look at the quote from above once more:
    Flying takes more skill than running/driving. Lib requires more teamwork. More skill + more teamwork = better K/D ratio

    Flying an ASF in dogfight vs an other ASF needs skill. Flying a Lib and bring it to the juicy spots and place it so that the Gunner can do his job needs some skill. Being that Gunner? Well, I'm sure my 8 years old cousin could do the job and he never played an FPS shotter before.

    So whats the end of this story? I don't know, may the devs fix it...
    • Up x 3
  2. 13lackCats

    Yes, unopposed liberators will definitely bring down the pain.
  3. arkbound

    ASF...asf...asf
  4. Dhax

    How many certs has your pilot invested in order to bring that liberator up to the level it was performing? How many resources did it cost to spawn a liberator?
    How many certs does it require for a person to ride in a sunderer... how many resources.
  5. PandoraAce

    try flying a liberator without heavy ESF defence. Nope, don't work.

    Only reason people ever whine about liberators is because they don't have people defending their air space, and they don't want to hop in an ESFs either.

    There is NO counter argument for not countering enemy liberators with your own ESFs. Even if you couldn't get them close by, flying an ESF from the warp gate takes less than a minute.

    Are you going to argue that AA won't allow you to chase off or kill that liberator? I thought AA is useless and under powered, should be no problem!

    Are you going to argue that enemy ESFs aren't letting you chase off or kill that liberator? Well obviously not! They're doing it right and you're doing it wrong! They have air dominance, hence they SHOULD BE ABLE TO PWN YOUR *** DOWN ON THE GROUND.

    Here's a tip. Defend your air space?
  6. ANGER MANAGMENT BEAR

    I love people who claim "JUST GET AN ESF AND KILL THE LIBERATOR EASY LOL".

    It's funny because the liberator is actually the BEST AA weapon in the game. Two zephyr shots or one dalton shot blows up an aircraft. As someone who regularly guns a liberator, I can assure you that I laugh very hard every time when I blow up the plane of someone I just bombed a minute beforehand. Anyone who thinks it's actually difficult to hit an ESF with the bombs simply doesn't get the concept of aiming or leading shots and/or is just plain bad. If you don't believe it, watch SKYeXile's 15 minute video where he hits BR100 in a lib and see how many planes he shoots down off his tail. The ONLY threat to a liberator is either 3+ AA maxes/planes at once or AA maxes that aren't rendering due to player overpopulation in an area. In smaller fights, the other team simply cannot field the proper defense against a liberator while also holding objectives.
    • Up x 2
  7. Hamox

    A Lib is 300, a Sundi is 400, so what do you try to explain to me? That the lib with 300 is more expensive than the Sundi with 400?
    How many ressources has the squad spent for 2 AA MAX, a Sundi and all that stuff?

    I am just sick of those arguments that Liberators need skill. Air needs skill, ground needs no skill, right?
    Pilots need skill, okay agreed, but the Lib gunner needs nothing exept a pilot who will fly him around.
    A sunderer is more expensive than a Liberator. 12 people formed a squad with 2 AA MAX, Engis, HAs and everything needed, that is by far more teamplay than 2 people farming in a Lib!

    I have tried it myself and I know that you do not need any skill to be a Lib Gunner. You can start to farm with a brand new character!
    I agree that ASF is very good counter to Libs. But if you run into a situation where you have no ASF support or if you want to sneak behind enemy lines with sunderers and infantry you just can not do anything vs Libs. They eat you up easily.

    How can it be that 2 people can take out a full squad easily and then even go for the 2nd Sundi with the next squad in it?

    I am not crying, I am not complaining, I just do not want this game to degenerate into an ASF / Lib war. Mobile ground units need to be able to defend vs a Lib. I do not want to make this mainstream. But on the other side I am tired of all those Lib pilots who try to defend their baby.

    Don't you think that 12 people where 2 have AA units should be able to defend vs one Lib? Don't you think that the second squad at least should be able to kill the Lib comming out of battle? How can this be balance?

    The only way you argue is that you try to defend the Lib, propably becouse you have invested a lot in it.
    Guess what, I also have a fully functional Lib, I have the weapons and the needed upgrades and I know how much you need to invest and it is not like you have to buy the whole world for it to be able to fly...
    I have invested SC and Certs and I still say that mobile AA should be able to counter it!
    If a squad is so well organized to take AA with it IT NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO COUNTER!
    Whats the point then to use AA with a squad?

    The only thing that at the moment works is to zerg up. OK no problem, my outfit has 3 platoons running, we have the ASF that are needed. But what with all those people who do not want to move around with a ZERG all the time just to have the ASF support?
    What with squads who enjoy being infiltrators? A lot of aspects of this game were killed by the current balance.

    Best balance in this game was early beta. No i-win-button on Libs and no i-win-rocket-pods on ASF. Skilled pilots still got their kills. But now every baby can fly an ASF or a Lib and thats what they usually do: Fly and FARM!
    • Up x 1
  8. Protential

    0 they payed for the weapons and the rest was irrelevant because they gained certs 100x faster then the average player. Nice try though
  9. Protential

    Here's a tip should the entire balance of the game be on rather or not airspace is properly defended?? No! Why? Because it forces us to play air, and also proves its OP. Otherwise we would at least be able to survive, or kill one sometimes. All it would take is 20 liberators, they could start their own faction, and literally faceroll VS NC and TR all together. Just 20, and while in my head I am picturing myself saving all of us with a dumbfire rocket, its not going to happen to a target I can't see, and 90% of the weapons in the game can't aim up to that angle, and you don't have time to move so you do aim that high.

    Here's a Tip, Should the ENTIRE BALANCE OF THE GAME be on rather or not you have enough ESF's to out zerg the enemy air and get to the liberators?
  10. PandoraAce

    Yes. The game should always be based on who has a tactical superiority over the battlefield. Tactical superiority is not achieved by every class countering each other.

    Liberators aren't OP. They're easy to run off, easy to kill. You're just using the wrong tools.

    I could just as easily whine why my infiltrator can't counter tanks or aircraft by itself. I could always switch to a heavy assault and blast a tank, but I don't wanna. I shouldn't be forced to either. Right?
  11. Adamar09

    I've been thinking about the liberator a lot. The problem is not necessary too much health (they are quite easy to chase off), but the guns.

    The zephyr and the dalton are absolute, unadulterated, B.S.

    Zephyr takes the shot pattern of the basic Lightning gun, except upgrade every shot to be HEAT tier (rather than peashooter), roughly- it can easily kill you in 2 or 3 hits. As an (ostensibly) anti-infantry weapon, the effect on armour is too good. Ruins tanks and turrets. Should be more in line with a HE tank shell? Also, lower shots/reload.

    Dalton would probably be less disgusting with reduced splash.

    Another problem with most of it (including rocket pods) is how the explosions hit through walls. Always nice to get to cover and die regardless.
  12. Hamox

    Your example with the tank is bad. If a tank runns alone into a full squad it will be dead in about 15 seconds leaving him time to shoot two or three times and making maybe 3-4 kills. If a Lib runs into a full squad, guess what happenes: The Lib will win and there is nothing this squad can do except spam ASF or their own Libs.
    Please explain to me: How does the game benefit from this balance? Why is only ASF or an other Lib counter to a Lib? WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS? Why 2 AA MAXes and a Sundi with a full squad can not defend vs a Lib? The Sundi has 2 Guns on the roof plus maybe an HA with a rocket and they still loose?
    What is the benefit of the system that you need an airforce to handle 2-3 Libs but 2-3 Libs can handle a platoon on the field?
    Please explain me the benefits that this logic brings to the game and makes it richer?
    I can explain to you 1000 disadvantages of the system. The main in short: No way to move for smaller platoons or squads no matter the specialization. This system only supports 2 things:
    1. Zerg up vs Lib.
    2. Lib farmers.
    Read my first post. It is something that I have experienced today.

    I give you even more examples when we look at tank vs lib:
    On my tank I need to decide it I want to shoot Infantry or armor.
    The Lib kills both easily with Zephyr or Dalton, it is just a question of taste.

    My tank is at high rist when attacking a group, but also high reward when I am able to kill the group. High risk = good chances, seems fair.
    On the Lib you are happy when you find a large group becouse you do not risk anything but you grab the rewards.

    The tank is slow and from time to time I have to travel to the next battlefield.
    The Lib is much faster and makes it easier to farm faster.

    Infantry (like your infiltrator in your example) can hide from a tank. It can not hide from a Lib. The thermo sees everything, so as long as you are not in a building the lib will find you and kill you. The tank can look around but will not see enemies behind rocks or buildings. The lib has a much better perspective and can see everything. The gunner has a very nice field of view and with IR / Thermo there is no way for infantry to hide. This is maybe the main reason why Libs are so deadly vs Infantry.

    While I have played with the Lib I almost felt like a cheater. I thought "Hey I can see you and you can't see me and in 2 seconds you are dead and I have the kill..."

    But maybe I should adapt my strategy and just fly Lib and farm certs until only Libs and ASF are left and everybody else has left the game :p
  13. TangoQD

    I believe the entire problem with liberators is poor base design against air, for example, two liberators should not be able to hold a platoon inside the spawn room (6 people holding 40 inside the spawn room).

    The liberator problem was only magnified when rocket pods were nerfed against air, stopping ESF's from destroying them quickly.
  14. Cysquatch

    @op

    So in your stories, a lone wolf air-to-ground vehicle stumbles across a lone-wolf infantry transport and wins.

    Sounds about right to me.

    Now, if those twelve "highly organized" people in the sundy had just one person in an ESF this would have been a much different story.

    Working as intended. Stop posting and go play the game.
  15. Hamox

    I do not say Libs are 100% OP but I just say that ground units should have a chance do defend.
    Maybe TangoQD is right with saying:
    I believe the entire problem with liberators is poor base design against air, for example, two liberators should not be able to hold a platoon inside the spawn room (6 people holding 40 inside the spawn room).

    And in my story the Infantry Transport had 2 AA units (MAXes) and they even did not have a chance to do some damage.
    Why the Zephyr is great vs Infantry AND great vs Armord Vehicles? The choise Zephyr or Dalton should not be a question of taste, it should be a question of what you need: AI or AV!
  16. Cysquatch

    Two AA MAX units that had no cover and were already being fired upon when they left the sundy.

    Seriously, it should not come as a surprise to anyone when a liberator absolutely destroys unsupported infantry or vehicles that it catches out in the open.

    Whining about that is akin to whining about being killed by an unseen sniper as you were sprinting across an open field.
  17. Headlessnewt

    So, I'm on the good side of okay as a pilot and I have a modestly kitted up AA Scythe (Hailstorm, A2A Missiles, Dogfighting 1, Flares 1, Stealth 1).

    Rocket Podder ESFs are my bread and butter, I kill them pretty easily, they offer very little resistance, the good pilots can get away, the AMAZING pilots can manage to rocket me in midair (it's happened once, Kudos to that mossie). I can usually take out two at once, though again, good pilots will realize that I'm gonna kill them and run. Other AA ESFs make for interesting duels, I win about half the time, and flee the rest (and usually get chased down and killed because no friendly AA felt like helping me).

    One-man Liberators are a joke. They drain my resources (I need to go reload afterwards) but they're xp pinatas. No chance to escape, no ability to fight, they just die.

    When I'm alone, a two or three-man Liberator is a challenge. The tailgun stings, I need to get the jump (which I usually do), be a good shot with my hailstorm, stay on its tail, avoid the belly gun and make good use of reloading time with missiles to get the kill without getting shot down, and then I will definitely need to refit and repair afterwards. Even if I lose, I usually severely wound the Libby and it'll need to repair soon if it doesn't want some other ESF or AA Max to finish it off. That's if I'm solo.

    If I'm with one or more other AA Scythes, that Liberator is going down. It might kill one of us if it's lucky.

    Naturally this gets dramatically more complicated if there's ESFs and Liberators in the same place, as there's grouping up and target priority happening, but the point is that a lone Liberator is not an invincible flying fortress, a single ESF can badly hurt them, and in numbers ESFs will just tear them apart like flying angry piranhas.
  18. PeterLawford

    Yes there is, and it's perfectly obvious to anyone who's actually hunted liberators with an ESF. You get crap for XP doing it. It can be kind of fun, but if you need certs at all, it's not a good use of your time. On the other hand, attacking ground targets in a liberator or ESF is a very efficient way to get certs.
  19. Rockoo

    Nothing wrong with the Lib bad enough draw distant is mess up Lib have it hard when the Lib getting bang up by AA/Maxs
  20. Exolus

    Oh my god, just GO AWAY!

    ESF's WRECK liberators. They are FREE certs and XP for any half way decent ESF pilot.

    Let me get this straight: OP managed to kill two sunderers and some tanks with unaware AA maxes, and people who are not set up to deal with an incoming lib with the 105mm Zeph, and he suddenly thinks its overpowered...

    Really? REALLY?

    Is a ESF overpowered when it can kill a Tank in one run if all rockets connect with rear armor? NO. That tank driver is a moron for going out in the open without any AA support.

    Is a tank overpowered when it pushed infantry back to there spawn and just farms them as they try and run out? NO. Those infantry are morons for not having there own AV set up prior to tanks moving in.

    Are AA MAX's overpowered when they set up on a ridge and down any thing with wings before it can even do ANYTHING remotely beneficial to the nearby battle? NO. Those pilots are morons for deciding to rush a heavy AA defended area.

    Are Lib's overpowered when they find undefended Sunderer's running around without enough AA or ESF's to protect them and kills the infantry who think its a great idea to get out and "hide"? NO. Those infantry are morons for deciding to drive out in the open, once again, without adequate air cover.

    Can you maybe see where I am going here? Are you starting to see how ridiculous you sound when you complain that Lib's are too powerful... when there was barely any of your counter's in the area?

    When my outfit does lib runs, I and several other people are ALWAYS in our ESF's in air superiority load outs to cover them? Why? They are USELESS if we don't. One good scythe or a mosi can flit through the airspace and take out liberators without breaking a sweat.

    LEARN

    2

    PLAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!