That doesn't work. If you can't make calculations accounting for the probability of hitting due to weapon inaccuracy, you have to use practical performance. And if it can't do what you claim it can in practical performance it's not worth discussing. As an NC MAX I never achieve the kind of performance you are talking about. There is no amount of skill that can account for intrinsic inaccuracy. At mid-range a TR MAX will out-damage me far more often then I even equal it. That is what you can use as a baseline.
So you are saying that the developers are wrong for having faction strengths and weakness with no regard for individual vs individual dps. Ok your right and the PS2 team is wrong. The NC are not taking over on every server, there is NO issue, at least not what you are making it out to be. Here from the Wikia and this is what the Developers INTENDED. Most people that know what PS2 is about and what I am talking about will never even bother arguing in these OP posts about DPS numbers. Character Creation The first step in creating a character is choosing an Empire. In PlanetSide 2, which empire the player decides on means a lot more than just which color armor they will wear. Each of the three iconic Empires has access to unique weapons, attachments, vehicles, abilities and more. In choosing an Empire, the player is really choosing a play-style that will mold a character throughout its entire lifetime. Visiting the Empires page will give the player access to not only a quick debriefing of each Empire's strengths, weaknesses, and philosophies in greater detail but also the full history and lore for PlanetSide 2 in the Rise of the Empires section or a quick view of history found in the Timeline of Events section. Terran Republic – The Terran Republic’s philosophy of warfare stresses top of the line conventional technology. Their tactics rely on the allowance of maximum sustainable damage, rapid fire rates with less damage output, and high ammo capacity weapons systems. They also have more lightly armored vehicles which are the fastest on the field. New Conglomerate – The New Conglomerate’s philosophy of warfare stresses brute force, so their tactics rely upon heavy tanks, hard-hitting weapons systems, and shields. Their objective is to smash the enemy during initial contact before they can react. Vanu Sovereignty – The Vanu Sovereignty’s philosophy of warfare stresses technology equals might, and their tactics rely on energy-based weapons using plasma-like ammunition. While they do not have the impact or fire rate of the other Empires, their weapons are deadly over a wider area than their counterparts. The reason I do not agree with you is you have blown this DPS thing out of proportion, there may be balance changes like bringing the other Maxes up to speed, but the enormous DPS of the NC Max is INTENDED and working as designed. There is another Official PS2 page somewhere that I cannot find that talks about the factions and strengths and weaknesses and how each may have to use different tools or strategies to counter the strengths of certain factions, that makes this point even clearer. The sad thing is that by this getting blown out of proportion you get to many people believing in this DPS bs. So ignore me if you like but my argument is more valid than yours when it comes to Planetside 2 and working as intended. On top of that email a developer and have them read your post and see what they answer. In fact I am going to get these Moderators to sticky a post on this, which would help immensely.
From this standpoint, I partially agree that the other MAX's need to be able to fulfill their rolls a little better, and may need a slight buff. I still think just altering the headshot damage in some way as we talked about in another post would help the Maxes out overall, but that would also buff the NC.
I agree. In practice the Scattercannon performs far worse at range, regardless of the pellet damage. Which is why I am discussing the notion of lowering pellet damage, as it does not affect range efficiency, and it's an easier way to lower the damage potential without affecting gun behaviour. However, I still don't feel that justifies it's performance when it gets into it's optimal range. I do think the NC MAX should be strong in close quarters in order to make up its lack of performance at range, but I do not think it should have 4 times the burst DPS, and 1,85 times the long-term DPS that is has now. In my opinion, an ideal situation would be if the MAX excels in burst damage, but suffers at a distance (as it does now), and is as close as possible to being balanced with the VS and TR in prolonged fights. Dual Scattercannons are currently able to pump out 7150 burst damage per second (without reload), including reload 2790 Dual Heavy Cyclers do 1906 damage per second, including reload 1505 That means the Heavy Cyclers would have to fire for ~3,8 seconds for every second the NC MAX is able to fire, or in a prolonged fight where the NC MAX is forced to reload, 1,5 second for every second. This is in my opinion too much of a gap - as I can't recall any time it's taken me much more than ~3 seconds to close a distance where I continously took fire, or was unable to find cover while moving closer, except for exceptionally rare cases where I'm caught moving between bases on foot, and my Charge was on cooldown. If the damage was lowered to 75: 3750 burst damage per second 1463 damage including reload A TR MAX would still have to fire 1,96 seconds for every second the NC Max fires. But if the fight is longer, they do roughly the same DPS, the NC having to fire 1,02 seconds for every TR second. Looking at the numbers a bit, perhaps 100 would be a better pellet damage: 5000 burst 1951,1 +reload. 2,6 seconds to compensate for 1 NC second. 1,2 second to compensate for 1 NC second if fight goes beyond 1 clip for NC. The NC MAX would still have a clear advantage over the TR, but would have to work around closing the distance, as that could possibly negate the higher burst damage. As you pointed out, and I agree with, the NC MAX quickly loses practical DPS over distance - which is why I agree it should be comparatively stronger in close quarters. But nearly 4 times stronger is a tad much, looking at how often a TR or VS MAX are able to get a 4 second headstart on a NC MAX in practice, nor having a chance at winning if a skilled TR MAX comes up against an inexperienced NC MAX in close quarters. One could of course increase TR and VS damage somewhat, and the ratio would be the same - and MAX units would all be frightening for infantry. But ultimately, 2,6 times the burst damage seems like a better balance than 3,8, all practical applications considered. **I didn't initially include Quasar because it's comparatively equal to the Heavy Cycler, but: Time needed to equal Scattercannon damage: 100 pellet damage: (Scattercannon) Quasar, burst: 2,65 sec Quasar, +reload: 1,28 sec Heavy Cycler, burst: 2,62 sec Heavy Cycler, +reload: 1,29 sec 75 pellet damage: (Scattercannon) Quasar, burst: 1,99 sec Quasar, +reload: -0,03 sec Heavy Cycler, burst: 1,95 sec Heavy Cycler, +reload: -0,02 sec
And.................furthermore. I play primarily as VS, I deal with the VS MAX because I love my Magrider, if I were more Max orientated as in the MAX was the larger percent of my rotation I would have to go NC and put up with its other weakness and learn to love the Vanguard. I also love Light Assault if Light Assault was my most played class, I would have gone TR for the Lynx and .75 ads. But you still wont get it. It would help if anyone had actually researched which side they were going to play and what classes they liked the most. I have seen and have saved all the DPS stats from all the faction I know what the DPS is, yes its massive at close range. The problem is the NC are not winning on all the servers, the only thing I fear about the NC is the NC max and BIO. From what I see of the NC on all four of the US est servers is they never field enough air or tanks and rarely are able to keep control of their own skys, ANY nerf to the NC would not be fair till we see better population and more evenly distributed combined arms. They are only winning sometimes when they all go to one continent. Unill the battles and populations balance out, the whole nerf and op are not the biggest current issues. I have heard of possibly ONE server where the NC do very well.
I confess I havent read all the posts because this is already at 9/10 pages long so im just going to throw my thoughts out here. The problem with NC MAX is that their dual AI MAX will EASILY kill a AI/AT MAX from any other empire, MAXes take little damage from infantry weapons so you would expect a dual AI MAX to lose against a AI/AT MAX but it doesnt, the NC AI MAX can easily kill any other MAX with its AI weapons. The solution I think is not to buff the other MAXes AI weapons(though it might be needed but not because of the NC MAX) and not to nerf the NC AI MAX.. Solution should be to buff the MAX AT weapons for all factions, as they are right now they do minimal damage against tanks etc so even a double damage buff wouldnt be all that bad I think. Doing this would let you actually use AT MAXes vs tanks and it would be viable against MAXes too, for all factions. Im fine with NC having a monster in close combat but if I bring out a MAX with an anti vehicle weapon it should level the playing field since half my firepower is/should be the counter to enemy MAXes or vehicles... If I have dual AT weapons I should be a horrible MAX/vehicle hunter just as the NC AI MAX is a horrible monster in close combat against infantry and AI MAXes.
Oh finally a post about this $%^&* ! Ridiculously broken as it is. I do not even bother to touch my VS MAX since challenge is not an option against it.
i love this.. always calling for NC nerfs. its been non stop since PS 1 we get the hacksaw.... FAN FREAKING TASTIC........ under 10-15 meters... outside of that well.... your just meat. people think the reaver is oh so overpowered... its a slow flying brick with no armor... can't dodge anything , slowest fighter there is.... we have the bolt driver.... so everyone else had to get one. if your so jealous of the NC you have to complain about their weapons all the time why not play NC ? oh .. thats right, you know the weapons suck you know all our vehicles are far weaker than anything else... you know that even if an NC gets the jump on a TR or VS they can still kill them far quicker.
While it may come as a surprise, some people may - such as myself - have chosen an empire not based off of game balance, but aestethics and philosophy. Deducting that because NC aren't doing well on your servers, or other areas also need rebalancing, they shouldn't be downgraded in some areas is a bit odd to me. I haven't seen the same degree with general ire towards any other item within the game, save for the NC MAX and specifically Hacksaw. It being the only powerful item in our arsenal, which I first of all believe to be untrue, is not a good enough argument to not attempt to balance it out. I still agree there should be some fundamental mechanical difference with each empire, but how well their classes perform shouldn't be it. It should be how they perform best. Right now, the way I see it, the NC MAX performs best because of too high alpha-strike and subsequently DPS. I believe it still should, but not to the degree that it's doing now, as it simply negates the advantage TR and VS have over it in other areas.
Yep, these threads will never end. New Conglomerate – The New Conglomerate’s philosophy of warfare stresses brute force, so their tactics rely upon heavy tanks, hard-hitting weapons systems, and shields. Their objective is to smash the enemy during initial contact before they can react. Sounds about right then for NC dual scatter MAX and Bio Lab, or any other close encounter with an NC MAX. As I said guys NC MAX working as intended.
Again, yes the NC MAX should live up to that. But not to the degree it is now - as it outweighs the areas where the other two empires should have an advantage over it.
Check the date of the post and check the current date. So what is the counter to an NC Max inside a biodome? If you say C4 then I hope you get banned for trolling. That's one of the stupidest answers possible against it.
Well, here is what is happening. People are joining a faction figuring out what classes they like then when said class is not the equal or is far weaker than a certain opposing class or weapon system then they yell nerf or op. I think the developers knew full well what all the dps numbers were dont you? The balance will come if the ENTIRE opposing faction is op not the individual weapon system or are you all still refusing to acknowledge what I am saying about DPS being irrelevant.Did you even read about faction strengths and weaknesses, no because you will not budge from your individual class OP or individual weapon OP views. I also do not believe any real NC would be here saying nerf the NC MAX, only traitors or people who occasionally play NC. Seriously no joke, email a DEVELOPER. Stop with making this DPS only.
So do you really think the developers did not notice the dps numbers or realize it. It is working as intended, Faction Balance.
Because the NC excel in hard hitting close combat the Bio dome is tough, period. It is especially hard for unorganized zergs. I do not see the NC owning all the continents because of it do you? Do not feed them free kills go around Biodome or avoid it unless you get a good sized group to try it. Why, well because it is their strength. Working as intended.
I might be more inclined to agree with you in this post if I hadn't been in the beta. I think it was the last patch before the beta ended that raised the Scattercannon damage to what it is now. Prior to that, it took an entire magazine to have a chance of killing a single enemy in CQC. I do not know what the damage per pellet was then. But I would be willing to bet that the difference between then and now is smaller than it would seem. In it's current form it usually takes half a magazine (three-to-four shots) to kill a single infantry within eight-to-ten metres. This in no way implies imbalance to me. Nerfing the damage would have a strong chance of returning the Scattercannon to the late beta state of uselessness. It may make it more balanced in MAX vs. MAX engagements, but I still contend that that is a symptom of the current poor performance of MAXs, not a sign of the weapon being overpowered. The only target big enough to absorb the majority of it's pellets that isn't capable of withstanding small arms fire is the MAX. Infantry are much smaller, and therefore less likely to be hit by multiple pellets from the same shot. Lowering the damage of the pellets enough to make a discernible difference versus a MAX would most likely greatly decrease the weapons effectiveness versus infantry as the damage of individual pellets matters more in that situation. It doesn't fire a single perfectly accurate projectile that does 850 damage. It fires six wildly inaccurate projectiles that deal 143 damage. Some of those pellets are going to miss and there is nothing you can do about it. You can't gauge the effectiveness of a shotgun the same way you do a machine gun. It simply doesn't work.
I understand the damage vs the other two MAX's. There are plenty of good arguments. I just do not feel the NC should have ANY nerf, given the games current state. The patches are focusing on the server continent population balance, and having more balanced faction fights with more people more often is needed before we call out the NERF hammer on the NC MAX If the NC start dominating because of it then ok I think some minor changes need to be addressed, like you were saying about buffing the other two maxes a little. But the title of this thread NERF the................ and look at this DPS is what I do not agree with.
Then what is? HA? They melt even faster than Maxes. If an HA is lucky he gets off one shot with his Rocket before he gets one-shotted. The problem with this reasoning is that, in CQC, there is no counter to the NC Scatter Max other than sending in waves of your own men to clog his barrels with blood and guts.
Conversely, are you saying that every game that is released comes out balanced and without needing to be adjusted? Because obviously all developers are aware of the data they've programmed. I'm aware of the state it was in pre-launch. Which is also why I'd rather see an adjustment in bullet-damage across the board, for all empires, and then see a comparative increase in MAX bullet resistance. For the sake of keeping the equations simple, I first set out only trying to show that the ratio in damage between VS, TR, and NC are not optimal - given the inherent nature of shotguns as you point out.
