The Hacksaw needs an obvious nerf

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Sogui, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. -CDL-Peacemaker

    Anyone have the video of NC Scat Max vs TR DC max? DC max won at EVERY RANGE. Including point blank....

    Edit:

    AFAIK MAXs got no changes since this vid was made.
  2. Garmr

    It's fine, certainly no worse than the TR mercy or VS blueshift
  3. Garmr

    That's early beta, and the hacksaws weren't in beta, though the same is still probably true save for very close range.

    People don't seem to understand that the NC max *only* excels in close range, you definitely SHOULD NOT stand a chance against a dual hacksaw max if you are in close range, that was your mistake, and you're going to pay for it.

    "But all the points in the game are in close quarters combat" That's not even half true, the only situation where an NC max is only even usable is a bio lab, and even in them you can be out of an NC max's range.

    If you are 50 feet away from a dual mercy max with no cover, you're going to lose
    If you are 5 feet away from a dual hacksaw, you are going to lose.

    That's the way it should be.
  4. doorap

    Another waaahh waaahhh an NC max killed me in CQB. Are you ******** that you're going to fight the enemy on his terms? Clearly if the enemy is using a shotgun type weapon you want to increase the range between the two of you, but of course noobs like you just want to rush in head first and instagib everyone in the room without any effort.
  5. Braken

    Actually, if anything, all the other MAX AI weapons for all factions need to be buffed up to the Hacksaw's level. Right now, the vast majority of them are almost useless at anything other than point blank, and even then, they have a dead zone right in between the guns.
  6. Niller

    They aren't stupidly broken... They 1/4 more spread than the regular scatter cannon, which makes them terrible outside of 15-20 meters especially against other maxes.
  7. Niller

    They could give the NC max a shield ability instead, or give the maxes overall more freedom to choose ability.
  8. Arcanum

    That video is from september. Balance changes were made. We didn't have any new weapons(hacksaws) in september either. I think even normal infantry weapons were almost completely limited stock.
  9. JojoTheSlayer

    FYI the HackSaws are WORSE than the Scatter on range, aka 2-3m in shotgun terms.
  10. Cryptek

    that doesn't exactly change anything (also, false they work fine at 10 meters range).. that video was still from beta, before MAXes were as survivable as now OR the scattercannon was reworked into what they are now, try having your facts in order, or do you want me to slap you in face with a video of how fast scattercannons kill a MAX now? Just to prove how horribly dated that video is?

    And don't even get me started on slug rounds, you can engage infantry at range, more reliably with those things than I can with dual cosmos.
  11. JojoTheSlayer

    Slugs kinda sucks compared to stock.
    TR twin C, unless hes a freaking noob, has a high chance killing me in a Scatter or Hack if he knows what hes doing.

    Start at 4m and charge a TR twin C with Hacksaw firing while the TRtC is shooting at you equals that you lose in the hacksaw.

    If you really look at the OP video you can see that most of the enemy maxes are noobs. They stop instead of trying to pull back etc because its a NC AI with low range.
  12. Monnor

    Look whos talking about nerf, it made me laugh.
  13. SiosDashcR

    If he charges at you, you charge away.

    I play TR Dual Mercy MAX and you will absolutely WRECK through infantry with it. TR MAXes are is the MOST versatile MAX that specializes in all ranges over the other MAX except for CQB (where the NC have them beat). But when it's NOT going against the NC MAX, it will wreck through infantry and VS MAX via CQB.

    Stop complaining and whining over it. The only people who have that right is the Vanu with their gimped MAX. Serves them right with their better weapons, tanks and aircraft.
    • Up x 1
  14. Arcanum

    Any dual AI MAX can kill infantry, dude. It would be pretty broken if it was hard to do that.

    Doesn't Vanu get even lower CoF and higher damage with the Dual Cosmos if they spamclick? Also don't ask people to stop complaining and make wild claims about how the game is unbalanced in the following sentence, that's pretty close to hypocritical.
  15. Santiak

    Just going to re-post this here:

    As a dedicated NC MAX (That uses the Mattock almost exclusively), I'd say that the Hacksaw variant is indeed out of balance.

    Now, that being said, I'm not saying that it varrants a big swing of the nerf-hammer, but I do agree that it needs to be adjusted, even if it's ever so slightly.

    I think that the main issue comes into play because the Scattercannon can't really trade a fast fire rate for per bullet damage. Basically, compared to their base counterparts, the Hacksaw version is geared towards increased alpha-strike, where the Nebula and Onslaught are geared towards a higher damage over time.

    My own contemplations on this is:

    Remove the refire-rate bonus from the Hacksaw altogether - maybe a very slight decrease in refire-rate, from 240 to 235/230, but in return significantly decrease reload-speed. Basically swapping refire-rate used on TR and VS, for a reload-speed bonus. (Given this is a big part of the Scattercannon, it may have to be significant).

    This would translate to the Hacksaw being able to lock down an area more effectively, but without the high alpha-strike it currently has, yet with a DoT comparable to Onslaught and Nebula.

    Also, it would mean that, given the nature of the Scattercannon, it's overall damage over time is increased, and with a slight decrease in refire-rate, hopefully still be in line with it's counterparts in the TR and VS arsenal.

    Granted this "solution" makes it somewhat different from the other two empires', but it is already different in that it does not have decreased pellet damage, where TR and VS, have.

    As many have stated, the time between reloads is one of NCs biggest drawbacks, and I can't help but think that removing a good deal of that reload would still make it a "go-to" weapon for the situation these variations were meant for, but remove the high alpha-strike which, at the ranges it's meant for, is too much of an advantage - in my opinion.

    In short, it would, hopefully, remove the alpha-strike, but increase the DoT in the same way that increased RoF and reduced bullet damage does for the TR and VS.

    On a sidenote, the reason I would not "recommend" reducing pellet damage, is that that specific bonus is already present on the Mattock. Removing that from the Mattock in favor of putting it on the Hacksaw would, in my opinion, make the Mattock too effective, and potentially invert the imbalance with Hacksaw vs Nebula and Onslaught.

    The difference between the Grinder and the Hacksaw whit the proposed changes I suggested above, would be that where the Grinder has normal refire rate and reload, it has a bigger ammo capacity. Whereas the proposed Hacksaw would have a significantly reduced reload, (maybe very slightly reduced refire rate), but normal ammo capacity and a much higher ammo consumption rate.
    Ultimately the Grinder would have more longevity in the long run, but the Hacksaw would have a higher DoT but would need more ammo support. Approximately the same relationship as Onslaught/Mutilator and Nebula/Cosmos.
    • Up x 1
  16. SiosDashcR

    If you've used the Dual Mercies for the TR MAX, you'd understand what I mean when I said WRECK through infantry. It's probably the only good AI weapon the TR MAX has, the Cycler, Mutilator and Onslaught being terrible or completely garbage.
  17. Purg

    Sometimes I can pull off shots that surprise me with slug rounds but they're wildly inaccurate and increasingly harder to hit targets beyond 30m unless you stand completely still and regulate your shots so your arms settle between each shot. Equipping slugs does reduce your effectiveness at close range by quite a margin so it's also a tradeoff.
  18. Vansoth

    I have stated this in other threads but I just want to inform everyone that the real reason NC MAX are considered OP is because they have the ROF of infantry automatic shotguns. A TR MAX heavy cycler only has half(400) the ROF of a LMG or Carbine. So a VS/TR MAX effectively have the same TTK as a Heavy Assault. The NC MAX kills twice as fast as an infantry with a shotgun so bascially instant.

    Buff ROF for TR and VS from 800 to about 1550 and then everyone will be happy!
    • Up x 2
  19. Cryptek

    ka-******** if you start with hacksaws at 20 meters and charge the TR you'll win, because you only need to close about 10 meters, then he is dead. Also there is no OP video.. The only video posted here is one from beta, which invalidates it since the MAX is absolutely nothing like that anymore.

    Also no, the TR MAX has a chance of killing a NC MAX, if the NC MAX doesn't know what he's doing. If he does, fat chance.
  20. MaxDamage

    I believe I now understand why NC MAXes are overpowered. The devs only intended them to have one arm, as they did in PS1, but fraggled up and gave them 2 by mistake, making them approximately 3-4 times more deadly in cqc instead of just 1.5-2x.
    Devs, remove the NC MAXes left arm please, it is clearly an oversight.