The Dervish Heavy Fighter

Discussion in 'Official News Feedback' started by Mithril, Jun 14, 2021.

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  1. VV4LL3

    Yes. The Joint Publication Doctrine on what defines Air Superiority is hilarious. Just wait until you get your hands on the Dictionary. Woah nelly. Better sit down.
  2. The Shozaku


    Lol, Its actually a massive issue... See the problem is I don't owe you anything. You're just another wrong person on the internet to me. If you want me to teach you, you have to come to me. Your attempts at manipulation fall flat, especially has there aren't multiple people questioning my skill at the Dervish... just you... a silly forum main arguing with someone out of his league. :)

    I'm on every day on Emerald during prime time.
  3. VV4LL3


    Nope. You keep saying other people call you out... which means it's more than "just me."

    Those words taste yummy, don't they.

    omnomnomnomnom....
  4. The Shozaku


    Thats adorable, but those two statements are not contradictory xD

    Ofc there were people who questioned my skill... those were the ones who challenged me... those are the ones who got dumpstered.

    You are not the first to challenge me, you are not the first to question me... but instead you're on the tail end...

    I have evidence, time, videos, and others who agree with me... all you have is your inability to man up and come at me. xD

    I'll even give you some advice, if you want to come at me, use a Reaver as latency will give you a lot of free dps on me. :)
  5. VV4LL3

    Stop stalling.

    Please do share your evidence, unedited, flying on Connery, as VS, in a Dervish. Peak Hours-- Second time now.

    This is the second time you've offered and I'm taking you up on it... again. By all means, share... in realistic combat scenarios.
    Not 1v1 with your buddies... throwing punches. Hop on Connery, as VS, in a Dervish during peak hours, and record full from launch to landing -- not a bunch of 3 second clips where you just happen to get a kill, negating the several hundred deaths prior.

    I want to see your ACE combat skills this this platform if you feel it is an amazing aircraft as you claim. Now is your time to shine, shut a bunch of people up, flex a little.
  6. Amodin

    He actually is a pain in the *** to fly against, even be AA. I see Shoz fly a lot, and it's always in a Dervish. Definitely one of the best Dervish pilots I've seen, either solo or with a gunner to add to it. I wish I was that proficient with it. And no, I'm not sucking up to him, just verifying that he does very well in that flying saucer.
  7. VV4LL3

    Cool.

    Let's see it.

    This "appeal to authority" argument is old.

    Unedited--non-stop, New Server, VS-Connery, true 1v1 and not scavenger kills.
  8. WeadEeder

    Ah. It would appear that the devs once more forgot that this exists, and despite it being more sluggish than esfs, is apparently not getting any change against lockons despite taking more than ESFs to begin with.

    I wish there were at elast options in the secondary slot that would boost preformance in absence of a secondary gun, at the least. It's incredibly unfun to lose access to an entire vehicle class whilst attempting to help balance the population like the dev's wanted.
    • Up x 1
  9. The Shozaku


    I believe the Dervish itself is fine the way it is, but I can also understand the need for a solo variant.

    In a game where people band together in outfits... Not having an outfit is kinda rough on a vehicle that needs a 2 man crew.
    • Up x 1
  10. VV4LL3

    "strength of evidence." Show it.
  11. The Shozaku


    Apparently you aren't aware of what a double standard is... You show it first before making demands...

    I've seen no evidence that the Dervish is bad.
  12. VV4LL3

    So, you admit you never presented any evidence.

    Cool.

    Glad you've joined the conversation.
  13. VV4LL3

    You see, that's because it isn't an insult. That's not the purpose of these conversations, contrary to what you may think. The point is, I provided basic C&P data, talking points, and rationale, while your replies have been "Get good." (I'm paraphrasing of course).

    When I asked for proof because your argument was an appeal to authority, you came up lacking.

    And yet again... still come up lacking.

    So -- provide proof that the sub-par maneuverability, speed, handling, utility, angle of attack, attack surface, signature -- ALL the characteristics as defined in legitimate airspace doctrine (CJCS JP-3...) that defines air superiority fighters (except fuel...since it's a non-issue in this virtual world), does NOT apply to the Dervish, and is somehow a legitimate air dominating force you vehemently defend.

    If you DO provide a video: Do it in the best, clean, unbiased, and unprepared/fixed environment:

    - Off your home server
    - Unedited/uncut
    - Not in a brawl of X+1:1
    - Not in attacks of opportunity
    - Not in your home faction
    - Not involving friends/fans

    Then we will evaluate those rounds. Until then -- PLEASE stop trolling.
  14. Demigan

    I agree with most of it but that last bit about making a video just doesnt work. For example imagine if 50% of all Harasser combat takes place attacking units already engaged, then requiring a 1v1 video doesnt display their true capabilities (and neither would a video displaying only an attack on engaged units).

    Video evidence is very limited in how useful it is. So what if player X can pull something off if the average player will not be able to achieve it? So what if you can guarantee a 1v1 victory in situation Y if a 1v1 in that situation is nigh impossible to achieve.

    Performance statistics is what I prefer, along with the info on how those performance statistics come into being.
  15. VV4LL3

    For example imagine if 50% of all Harasser combat takes place attacking units already engaged, then requiring a 1v1 video doesnt display their true capabilities (and neither would a video displaying only an attack on engaged units).

    It's very useful in analyzing performance operationalized characteristics. It is a critical component in evaluating and assessing how well a sortie was, and how the pilots adn aircraft performed. In the testing and evaluation phase, it is even more essential to match the measured Capabilities and Performance (C&P) parameters against real-world examples.


    In your example, evaluating how the two platforms performed against one another, since they are LIKE platforms, it limits the scope of the analysis to Techniques, Tactics, and Procedures (TTPs) only, typically.

    If there was a comparison between a Harasser and Modified Harasser, in the same class, category, and role -- where the modified harasser is considered a "Ground Superiority" unit, it would be evaluated as such. The skill gap/bridge between the drivers would matter and be taken into consideration, which is why hundreds, if not thousands of hours of footage is often evaluated.


    We'll, simple statistics aren't enough. For instance, having the two Air Frames statistically compared, one would believe that the Dervish has more firepower than an ESF. What good is firepower that cannot be employed though? Seeing in practice is more compelling.

    I could state that simply having two ESFs instead of a Dervish is better against another ESF. That should be a given.
    Max damage per second, versus total health pool -- easy game over discussion. It would be obvious that the Dervish is severely outdone in that comparison.

    Then you'd have people defending the Dervish, and say "well... it's an overpowered.... for ABC reasons...." and often neglect that it has TWO positions required to even begin that argument.

    I digress though -- the point is, you can compare from video, and when you analyze statistics wihtout operational contex, the very BASIC reality from desk-jockies often overlook, that other attributes matter, if not more than raw firepower vs health. All those characteristics I've mentioned above to define an Air Superiority Fighter matter and the dervish is just lacking in all.

    Great, you have a nose gun that might do more damage, but if you can't land a round because your angles of attack are always outperformed, it really doesn't matter.

    Great, you have an extra gunner, but the way the weapons function are simply not applicable in a dogfight.

    Great, you have a little extra hit point, but when your attack surface is significantly larger, and evasion speeds are subpar, you're a sitting duck to non-air platforms where vertical attack vectors are normal (e.g. tanks... liberator...)

    Sure, you have two people gunning, but what does it matter when the maneuverability is non-scalar in yaw-yoke, and roll...

    Sure, you have a hover capability, but what does it matter when your center of gravity is leveraged by a larger wingspan, giving massive amounts of torque against a non-maneuverable aircraft?

    All are realities that may look well on paper, but in practice are realized. I am just growing old of this discussion, so weary and tired of hoping for a modicum of non-elitists "get gud" replies.

    Day Break Games refuses to provide the data, and what data is available supports the underperforming claims. Clime rates, angle of attack, maneuverability, ... I mean really.... when you see videos (Planetside 2 || ESF Tutorial || How to transition between forward flight and hover mode - YouTube) of basic manuevers that just cannot be performed by the Dervish, the only argument is "Well you're using it wrong..."

    No... no we are not. It's an Air Superiority Fighter -- I needs to perform like one. #TheDervishIsTrash


    Here's some resources to read at your leisure on these principles.
    JP 3-0, Joint Operations, 17 January 2017, Incorporating Change 1 (fas.org)
    3-60-AFDP-TARGETING.pdf
    Fighter Aircraft | RAND / U.S. and Chinese Air Superiority Capabilities: An Assessment of Relative Advantage, 1996–2017 | RAND
    The Future of the Bomber in an Air Superiority Role: Fighting an Adaptive, Complex Enemy in the Pacific > Air University (AU) > Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs Article Display
  16. Demigan

    Modern day requires such tests because they cannot get such perfect performance statistics as in the game.

    The performance statistics aren’t “this thing has this much health and this much damage”, those are barely useful as it doesnt tell you what the combination of all the size, speed, damage, reload speed, magazine size, health etc will mean. The performance statistics is “in month X the total amount of users was Y, they got Z amount of kills and A amount of vehicle kills at B amount of deaths etc”. It tells you what everyone, from the worst to the best user, can achieve with it while taking into account every player and the weapons they use and the chances they meet etc.
  17. VV4LL3

    I'd love to see the player stats.
  18. Demigan

    Me too the last time I checked there werent any available yet, it was a while ago.
    • Up x 1
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