The current state of ESF dogfights

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Schn00bs, Mar 18, 2014.

  1. IamnotAmazing

    well the nc have a hell of a lot more esf's than either faction on waterson, and yes I fly all three factions.
  2. Vanon

  3. Eazyf

  4. Chubzdoomer

    Maybe it's a "grass is greener on the other side" thing then, but I very rarely seem to have any air support in big battles on Waterson and am constantly swarmed by Mosquitoes (and occasionally although not as often, Scythes) as a result.
  5. IamnotAmazing

    The nc air have a more constant stream of air it seems, but when the luxe mossie mlgproyoloyswag ball comes out then everyone else hides away (except prey)
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  6. Burevestnik

    I see your point and cant exactly disagree with it because it's a question of perspective and what's attracting you to the game. Skill in a as hectic and diverse game as this is to me a secondary if not tertiary concern. After cohensive teamplay and pure numerical superiority.

    Proper for the task specialized vehicles, defined roles and level of competence as either combined arms unit or pure specialized strike group play far more important role to me and something that has kept me playing planetside 2.Basically what you consider bad for an MP shooter i consider as something vital for success of the game as complex as this and welcome it with open arms.

    As it stands the A2AM's both Coyotes and Tomcats are a very powerful tools. Especially when grouped up together with good pilots and medium skilled ones coordinating in a hunter-killer role. Coyotes to the better pilots, tomcats to the lesser skilled pilots. It provides a nice level of teamwork. I do not think there is a single good pilot willing to state that he would loose to visibly less skilled pilot that is using tomcat or coyotes in a dogfight. It's always a 2v1 or 3v1 scenario that ace's used to win but now can't that is a problem for them. Lockon are to blame but so is lack of willingness to adapt and group up.

    Without tomcats/coyotes the airgame would be dead and at least was slowly dying on Cobalt. You cannot deny that amount of active air has risen dramatically on the server since the introducition of new weapons for the ESF's because the monopoly that that ace's used to maintain by bunching up together and signing non engagement pacts to better farm the scrubs has diminished greatly. I disagree out of principle that because you've refined skill you should be automatically in position to whipe the floor every single time with everything below you in a game where there is no ranking system nor ranked servers exist. We've got complete beginners going against people who have wasted more hours than anyone would be willing to admit if the stats weren't readily available on flying.

    So in summery i think two intermediate pilots with lockons should be an obsticle that is hard for seasoned pilot to overcome instead of a walkover that they used to be. Without the Tomcats/Coyotes i would simply keep telling noobs not to bother and wouldn't see any reason of attaching them to an air squad knowing that they would be an easy prey, useless and not have any fun flying. Instead i would tell them to buy skyguards and burster arms and blot out the sky with flak. Currently the game is vastly more inclusive and team centric as result of changes recently introduced and while some tweaks are required in my opinion it is in a good position balance wise.
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  7. Schn00bs

    When u are able to overcome 3 guys with noseguns in a 1 vs 3 scenario then they deserve to get wiped ffs. I cannot see whats wrong with that. Obvously the solo pilot outskills them. Do you really want to bring everything down to shear numbers? Well, than this game is only made for casual gamers and even those will be bored after 1 week.
    I personaly have fun in a game when i improve. The better u get, the harder it will be to improve - but the award is that u get better than others and ofc u should be able to whipe several targets when u have like 1000h of playtime in an ESF, vs guys with a combined experience of 5 hours.

    I definitely get killed by log-on guys here and there. When u lock someone at distance, its impossible to loose the lock - really... and the time he needs to close the gap will let you easily place another missile. Whats left of your targets HP can be blown away with the PPA in a blink.

    You can defend vs those players by using a2a yourself, i do this from time to time. But hell thats so boring and feels pathetic at the same time.
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  8. Guppet

    If you put 1000 hours into something in the real world, you may have something to actually be proud of. 1000 hours in an ESF, if you have that you should feel embarrassed of it, not think that it makes you somehow worthy of being untouchable.

    The only thing those 1000 hours should give you, is the enjoyment you had during them. If you see them as an investment, which must be rewarded, the game owns you, which is the wrong way round.

    If they pulled the plug tomorrow, what of those 1000 hours then, wasted. If there is ever anything in a game that has that much hold of you, you need help, professional help.
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  9. Burevestnik

    Would you die in 1v1 duel fight to an A2AM Tomcat user of considerably less skill?. Answer is a solid "No". What you die to is someone jumping you while you have fire supression. Maintaining 300+ distance and sending two missiles up your tailpipe while you get hit by one and manage to turn in into a dogfighting form. If you keep the distance then you are at a great disadvantage to Tomcats and if the other pilot manages to rotary you when you close in the distance then he clearly wasn't a complete noob and knew what he's doing.

    The problem isn't that you shouldn't be rewarded for your skill. The problem is that because there is no ELO rank system in place all aspects of the game should be viable for noobs and veterans alike on same server. Noobs playing it cheap, bunching up and using lockons should be able to engage and overcome bigger threats of smaller sizes together and should loose to same number of those bigger threats in open combat. Everyone also has access to the same weapon systems and while they are a game changer as air superiority loudouts they aren't exactly "OP" right now. Like everything else, they stack up really well with numbers and in defined squad setup.

    The biggest attraction that Planetside has is the chaotic battlefield, rediculously big amount of troops on single map/server and inclusive enviroment where everyone can feel that he's making a difference on the battlefield. Previously and without lockons the air game would be completely locked of for good majority of players and thus majority of potential clients. You can't forget that this isn't a charity project and people actually pay irl moneys for stuff.

    Regarding having fun. It's a matter of perspective once more. I personally enjoy the hectic nature that lockons generate and fly mostly an engagement radar reaver myself so while i'm using Tomcats i'm putting myself into most vulnerable posiution to them. I find them extremely fun to use and really enjoy controlling groups of 3-5 reavers with a mix of tomcats and coyotes. Likewise i enjoy flying a ground radar reaver over big fights that my platoon is participating in and calling over ts3 enemy troop concentrations without getting a single kill or assist point in the process.
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  10. Schn00bs

    Okey, thats ********.
    A medium skilled pilot who has an idea of what he is doing, is a serious threat to even the best pilots. And not only if he jumps on someone, pretty much in every situation. Thats because a2a missiles are amazingly easy to use, and deal soo much damage.
    You guys simply cannot deny those facts.

    You need to close the cap as a victim of a a2a missile user. That will put you in such a disadvantage, u will only win when your opponent srewed up hard.

    They would be strong enough and rewarding to use even when they would need 4 or even 5 hits for an ESF.
  11. CalvaryCallsMe

    My biggest issue is that as it stands right now The Reaver has the advantage in every category in a dogfight. Nerfing it would be a generally bad idea but returning unique traits to the ESF's would go a long way to fixing everything.
    For example getting into a hover fight w/ a Reaver should be a bad idea, but if say a Mossie comes in at full speed and sort of hit and runs it, there isnt a thing a Reaver should be able to do to turn and hit it.
    The scythe would have to be slightly remodeled to fit the gap. Given its originally intended agility should be able to fly circles around the others in a turning fight.
  12. nightbird

    Scythe is designed to hover duel (brake speed and profile and faster projectiles to hit easily at a distance). Mossie is designed for turning dogfighting by being a reed and best acceleration to overcome turning speed loss. Reaver is designed for hit an run, rotary one clips people the fastest and highest AB to get you out of trouble.
  13. VeryCoolMiller

    Sorry but not. An experienced tank crew kill both , easily
  14. Xervous

    Inb4 nerf vanguard shield.

    But really, a good tanker can kill 2 tanks that are engaging him, but not in all situations.
  15. Chubzdoomer

    Agreed. I've experienced this in my Lightning multiple times (taking on 2-3+ enemy vehicles and coming out victorious due to maneuvering better, using cover, and landing more of my shots).
  16. Verenz

    ^This opinion is based on nothing.

    The scythe has the most advantages in a hover fight and the best stock gun (which is what you use in a hover fight).

    The reaver and mossie are extremely closely and nicely balanced (imo)
    Top speed vs top AB speed
    Acceleration vs AB acceleration
    Superior turning/braking vs superior Vthrust
    Smaller hitbox vs better gun

    If it were up to me to balance the esfs then I would:

    1. Buff all 3 AI noseguns -more splash on airhammer, more mag in banshee, ppa needs most work.

    2. Nerf coyote reload speed by 2 seconds - I am fine with the easy mode but I am not fine with it reloading so quickly you don't need the nosegun.

    3. Lower the damage of A2AM to be a 3 hit barely-on-fire (500 damage sounds good to me).

    4. Buff extended fuel by removing the newly introduced initial hover AB fuel penalty.

    5. Haven't used hornets or new noseguns, so I won't mention them.

    6. Extend the falloff min and max ranges of the rotaries by about 20m each.

    7. As much as I definitely could justify a nerf to the scythe, I would rather leave it being slightly superior in duels as a factional flavour. I prefer a game where TR/VS are screaming vanguard OP, TR/NC are screaming Scythe OP and VS/NC are screaming vulcan OP (not anymore lol), I am more of a fan of factional balance rather than piece by piece.

    Or nothing, a balance pass is really not THAT needed.
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  17. VoidMagic

    Personally, I feel that all the nosecannon should have their DPS flat out increased by 10 to 30%.
    This would solve alot of issues and make any factional differences irrelevant. 1 v 1 dogfights take simply too long when compared to any other 1 v 1 in game (minutes vs seconds). Needs to be addressed, it's really outta wack.

    As for all the Scythe hate, as a strictly Vanu pilot, I will refrain from too much comment. However, I feel any changes to weaken the Scythe are short sited, do not take into account the total picture of balance, and will create larger imbalances than they solve.

    As stated previously and in my experience, the Reaver outshines the Scythe in group fighting, which honestly, is all that really matters in todays meta. Who the hell is 1 v 1'ing... lol Sure, we set up duels sometimes but, in the open live world... 1 v 1's are as rare as pug medics healing.

    The only video's you EVER see of 1 v 1 hover dueling are those made by folks that set it up. Any hover duel you get into, is going to quickly devolve into a (n) v (n), not to mention ground.
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  18. Schn00bs

    What are the advantages of the reaver, that would make it "outshine" scythes or mossies in group fights? The life-leech or the HP bonus? :D
  19. dstock

    Most of the Scythes on Waterson can't track you through a 3-point turn. I've been having fun diving into a rock face in my Reaver and doing a split-C out, save so much ammo watching them just implode, lol.

    To all the people that say the only way to fight in the air is hover duel: LOL
  20. bonkfire

    Although having an airgame that allows skilled players to be skilled players and stomp unskilled players seems fair at first. The problem is it is only fair when both pilots started learning to pilot at the same time. But as it stands now anyone trying to get into the air game has to deal with skilled pilots that have been flying way longer then them and have fully upgraded planes. Skilled AA players who have upgraded sky guards and bursters. There is no practical way for pilots to be matched against pilots of equal skill so they can learn before being thrown into fight against already seasoned veterans.