The current state of ESF dogfights

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Schn00bs, Mar 18, 2014.

  1. GoyoElGringo

    Ok, I misunderstood what he was saying. As for ABs, I don't know if it would even be possible to balance them against coyotes in hoverduels. I think they should both be a viable option though. The only thing I can think of would be to increase the reload speed of coyotes, or add a longer delay when switching weapons and firing(which is not something I want).

    But one thing is obvious, if coyotes beat out an A2A nosegun in a hoverduel by themselves, there is something wrong. I guess the first place to start is to decided which gun is the A2A hoverduel nosegun. If the rotary is supposed to be it, then the coyotes should not beat it out.
  2. Schn00bs

    Even when i get jumped in a scythe ill swing around and end up in a hover fight. And there you go, i have the scythe advantages right there. Pretty much every air engagement vs pilots who will not just try to fly away will end up in a hover fight for me.

    Peaple really underestimate the gabs inbetween the wings of the scythe. Compared to the hitbox of the reaver, the scythe is "hard" to hit, even from above or below.

    Also you mentioned a lower TTK for the Saron. Well, the DPS is higher than on the needler, and even when it would not be like this, the acutal damage inflicted to the enemy is higher for the saron, since u will hit way better with it through its higher velocity.
  3. umbrellapower

    Should've just named your thread "NERF THE SCYTHE!!!!!111"

    Although this is pretty much clear to every pilot that engages in dogfights. For those of us who play both ground and air, I think we can agree that in 1v1s, the air game is a bit unbalanced right now (probably an understatement). As it stands, a Saron Scythe vs. a Mustang Reaver is like an Orion HA vs. an AC-X11 Engineer. The Engineer can only win against the HA if his opponent is noticeably worse. To make matters worse, many VS pilots are convinced they win fights due to their skill and not their aircraft. If hover duels still consisted of pilots flailing rotary shots at point blank ranges, then yes, it would be a skill-based encounter and the choice of ESF would not matter. However, the reality of it is that if you created two clones of yourself and stuck one in a Reaver and the other in a Scythe, the Scythe would win 7-8 times out of 10 engagements.

    Reavers at this point are reduced to rushing because fighting a skilled Scythe pilot who is on your level on his terms in a hover duel is basically assisted suicide. Or you can just grab A2AM and laugh as the Scythe hitbox advantage/weapon velocity is completely nullified as your VS opponents send you angry tells about "dishonorable" dogfighting. If you're gonna **** talk a pilot even while crutching on your Scythe, don't get mad when I start to abuse the crutches I've got in my arsenal.
  4. Matti

    I starte posting videos about this balance issue a few months back, turne into a very infected
    discussion every time. Not that SOE seemed to care
    • Up x 2
  5. Bujias

    I'm not one of the best pilots around, in fact i just started learning recently, i started to learn back in november, and lately i am managing to put a fight to some of the server(connery) ace's, and killing a few of them if i jump them, i didn't need coyote's or A2A to learn how to tough, i did however had 4 pilots in my outfit CiK training me (xbreak, bobertfett, ganstrom, blakeA), i just found the concept of dog-fighting interesting, it requires a lot of skill which is something i always liked in games and that is missing so much lately.

    When the coyote's first came out i got them, everyone said they were op so of course i had to get them, but soon i realize that it took away the pleasant feeling of killing a better pilot, or winning a hover duel, so i quickly changed back to the afterburners, i might not get to kill an ace's as often but when i do i feel so much better doing so. Now i bring all this story to hopefully make SOE realize that those who want to fly in your game are going to do so and learn for the pleasure it brings, and an easy win weapon isnt going to make them learn any faster.

    I dont think it would be that hard to make an ingame tutorial to teach new guys maneuvers, much easier to make new poeple interested into the air game if they at least knew how the ace pilot is doing what he is doing to kill them and try to mimic them, than just give them an easy to spam and win weapon and punish those that enjoy the skill level involved.

    I also realize that after coyotes came out and A2A lock ons got buffed, im not having as much fun in the air as i use to, it seems like whenever im in a hover fight some random guy comes in with coyotes and i have no choice but to try to get out of there or get at least get a kill before they get me, it use to be if a random guy came out as long as he was not skilled i could continue to fight the original esf guy with out having to worry so much for the new esf.
    So coyotes made the air not so much about skill or helping new people, it just increase the importance of having more people in the air, it basically buff the air zergs, dumbs down the air game, and lower the importance of skill level.

    Lately tough, im not seeing that much coyotes, but A2A lock ons, and with the air zergs that been coming out lately those things are the most annoying thing, there really is nothing fun in them, i tried them it requires almost no skill and they do so much damage, not only that but it tends to be so hard to outrun, hide or do anything against if your outnumber. Once again make the air more about the numbers and not the skill, practice and dedication should have more importance than how many people i have in the air.

    Now im not against a good air zerg vs air zerg, they are really fun, but as it is right now, those that have more coyotes or A2A lock ons win.

    I dont mind the scythe that much right now, i agree tough that is the best esf in a hover duel, im just worried that they will nerf it to the ground, and i feel the small hitbox is kind of representative of it, and should nt be change. I dont know enough about nose guns in other esfs besides mossie to give an educated opinion of it.

    anyways thx for those that read my wall of text.
  6. Ziogatto89

    VS player here

    Reavers do seem underpowered now, i don't notice it as much on mosquitoes tough maybe it's because NC aces kind of disappeared on my server... however instead of trying to equalize everything like those ESL, MLG, 1337 nosegun wangers i would go for asymmetrical balance, give reaver a more substantial HP bonus rather than the current 5-10% make it more like 30-40% so that each fanction mantains a distinctive advantage instead of trying to balance it towards NS fighters with different names and looks.

    For the weapons the schyte should mantain the speed buff while the others should get their DPS back before they "brought it togheter". Before the schyte's weapons were just god awful, their faction specific advantage was weakness or mediocricy at best, now they feel like VS weapons with the advantage of precision.

    Well this is typical SOE yoyo balancing and I'm just gonna enjoy it now since i had to wade through it since the beta...

    Oh yeah fuel pods could use a buff too given current AA secondary alternatives.
  7. Nerazim

    I can't speak for Coyotes, but if you try to use A2AM in a dogfight you will get owned. They have their uses, they even prevent some dogfights from ever occurring. Not everyone flies to dogfight all the time, often I just want to keep the skies clear so the guys on the ground can make progress. A2AM is great for area denial, a lot of pilots will just stay away whilst grumbling "damn lock on noobs". A real ace will just be more motivated to come kill me, knowing full well A2AM isn't going to help me out in the slightest once he's on me with the nosegun.

    If you use them in a dogfight you will lose unless you manage to maintain a lock and fire whilst you are reloading, but most pilots will make locking onto them take longer than the reload - in which case nose gun is superior. Plus if they have a flare to pop, congrats, you just wasted ages trying to lock them whilst they've been shooting you to bits.
  8. Spadar

    Reavers don't actually have an HP bonus, all the ESFs have exactly the same HP/Resistances.
  9. Biscuittt

    ROFL, well over a year after launch and the same misinformation pops up. I'm awarding you a facepalm auraxium for how many times you corrected people.
    • Up x 1
  10. a4555in

    I try to learn to fly around only with a nosegun and AB, but opponents using lockons force me to use tomcats. On the other hand, opponents use lockons because people like me use them. It's a vicious cycle :/
    Apart from your suggestions, I would like there to be a 'duel' mode in VR training-that would help newbies a lot.
  11. Reavx

    On my server coyotes are in use quite alot.
    I think it is in part due to the scythe inballance too.
    Many of the top pilots from NC and TR rolled to vanu after the changes, coyotes level the playing field.
    I find it amusing a scythe pilot I'd have lots of trouble with if we were both AB/long range fighting I have no trouble with when we both use coyotes and usually they try to run away when they have the same load out as me..

    I agree that coyotes require little skill to use and if you know how they work you can abuse them in knife range when you can't even see the other guy etc.
    But.. Who cares.. the air game is already unbalanced anyway.. Reaver is a flying brick and the scythe is sleek and hard to hit with the best default gun.
    One crutch is no difference to the other even when it stems to your choice of faction.

    I get lots of people whinging at me about coyotes, mostly vanu though TR seem to get it.
    All the vanu ''''''aces''''' (crutch bad players lolol) complain when you trump their AB saron SKILL load out with coyotes and rushing.
  12. ADUILO

    I think rocket pods should get a buff versus aircraft, they're the most skill based AA weapon there is. Right now, it takes almost a full mag/clip (not sure which it is) to kill an ESF.
    • Up x 1
  13. Reavx

    Haha yeah.
    Let's buff the A2G weapon in A2A that sounds like logic.
  14. ADUILO

    Would you be so kind to propose a better skill based A2A weapon?
  15. BrowneHawk

    I am a new reaver esf. Battlerank 35 after a week of flying. I have had a few dicks kill me on my own team for using coyotes and its bs. I have had people on other faction whisper me and talk smack. The damn things are in the game, high ranked players use them on me, i use them against them. Its very simple. As a new esf you have less certs, you have a smaller clip, and less bullets. The coyotes give a fighting chance of getting a kill. I want to also say the coyotes do take some skill to use and plenty of people can miss shots. When i fight a good esf that is using just nose gun it doesn't matter he still wins, so if you are losing to coyotes consider the fact you are just not that good.
    • Up x 1
  16. VoidMagic

    This is a simple issue.

    Fuel tanks are for running away and dodging.

    Coyotes add DPS while your main gun reloads.

    The only other option to add DPS are tomcats which are crap compared to coyotes.
    (No I don't care how much you hate them, they are crap, try using them)

    Pilots that need to control airspace and aren't playing

    "Look at me I teh Bes..." will choose coyotes every time.


    1) Your not running, you need to control airspace and defend team mates... running is counter productive.
    2) MOAR DeeeePeeeeSsssss means enemies in your airspace are there for far less time.

    Create a long range and short range GUN for secondaries and everyone will use that. You could have a long range(lower damage) and short range(higher damage) option.

    However, if your not playing for K/D or Bragging rights.. if your playing the game to control AIRSPACE, the only choice is to increase your damage output and spending speed/manuever to do it, isn't a bad idea when your in a airwing clashing with other airwings.

    If your soloing... fuel pods and stealth will help your K/D far more.

    There's really not a whole lot of guidance on the coyotes... but, they sure do add to dps.
    • Up x 1
  17. Schn00bs

    They dont add damage while u reload, since u do not need to use your nosegun at all - with a reloadtime of only 3 seconds + upgrades.

    I'm glad u think so. In fact tomcats are even more broken than coyotes. I cannot remember a single time i lost a "dogfight" that i opened using a2a missiles. At least they need a tiny bit more skill. Like when u have less than 5 hours in your aircraft u could eventually loose a lock.
  18. IamnotAmazing

    I dunno, something like, a nosegun?
    • Up x 2
  19. jarree

    The thing is, nothing in this game is based on certain 1on1 situations. While scythe may be the best 1on1 hoverfighter, it has several downsides such as being the slowest, way easier to dalton than a mossie (in my opinion, feel free to disagree), takes more flak from the ground (area between the wings is actually a hitbox for flak) etc.

    Lets take vanguard vs magrider 1on1 fight, seems a bit more unfair than scythe vs reaver don't you think?
  20. Pixelshader

    As I see it right now:

    Scythe: feels boring when I get into fights knowing I should win every single time, a2g used to be really fun but with the changes to esf you can't really defend yourself properly when using an a2g loadout anymore
    Reaver: can't stand up to a similar skill scythe at all, only good for being a dick with vortek + tanks + racer and never engaging in any remotely fair fight

    I wouldn't know about the mosquito really. I just log on occasionally to deliver some vortek while waiting for patches.