[Vehicle] The 5 second Cloak Restriction is too high for single a single occupant Flash.

as winter said, the amount of times that a solo flash successfully ambushes a tank can be counted on one hand.
its easy yo spot, ridiculously loud, takes a lifetime to kill a tank (several reloads) and it dies to one shot.

i feel like DBG sat around a table and gave out their unnecessary nerf ideas and when they couldn't decide
between a delay and a harsh energy penalty they threw their hands in the air and said "MEH! lets just do both!"
the nerf is ridiculous, it was unnecessary and hilariously excessive.
DBG get your head in the game and rethink this.

Guys, the OP played you all for fools.

I encountered them before, on another thread. They're a troll, and they're proud of it. That's why their posts are filled to bursting with random emojis.

They wanted to start another heated argument about the Flash Cloak's nerf.

I was someone who had survived good and long to have upwards of 30 kill streaks on a wraith flash before my greed or a wrong turn got me. I had learned many ways to keep my wraith flash alive, or myself, upon receiving any hit from any vehicle besides an AP MBT.

On that note, I always thought that the cloak, if it had any sort of cooldown, would obliterate the flash from ever being used again like it had been. A five second cloak? I'm done. I will come back for some infantry play and maybe some lightning/mbt stuff, but the wraith flash is what kept me giddy and grinning for the past 2 or so years. Without that, I don't think I'll be logging on very frequently. I tried to play wraith flash today and in a few minutes I still got a few vehicle kills, but five seconds is BRUTAL. FIVE SECONDS. I have blown thousands of certs into this 1 to 2-shot vehicle. A single well aimed weapon and I'm toast. Not to mention how often the wraith cloak bugs and you appear clear as day.

And let's be honest. The server lag was making this thing a 5-second cloak anyway. I get that a hundred people whined about it, but a five second cool down defeats the purpose of a vehicle that was supposed to fire its (individual clips) pretty weak volley, then disappear. No, you are a clumsy target with a narrow field of view and now you are dead if you did not specifically go for someone who is already at the brink.

I very much enjoyed taking on two or three MBT groups and picking them off one by one and leading them around the wrong ways and coming up behind them. I very much enjoy jousting a deployed sunderer, firing a volley and then disappearing as I go for road kills. An uncloaked person on a flash is just a death sentence for how accurate players are, especially with server lag keep your movements 1 second behind.

If players are pissing a storm about the wraith flash, and a cooldown was the best the devs could come up with, I'm confident we could work on something else that weakens the absolute devastating power of being an annoying tank or infantry murderer.

A way that they could make it work better with the Flash is to make it faster, so we can get away from an MBT following us. Up the turning speed, reverse speed, and driving speed and then it can play even more into a quick attack and retreat vehicle that the devs were probably trying to make it into with this nerf.

While i agree the flash was never OP (before starfall) your argument that you can no longer take on 2 or 3 MBTs with a 50 resource ATV will probably not win you any supporters.
Infact opposers will use this as evidence they were right all along.

Question:
Honestly, did you find it easier to do with a starfall?

I have mixed feelings on this. But mainly because I didn't read the update popped a flash and died so awkwardly. Even though I use it, easily pop cloaked ones with the Hunter QCR explosive bolt (usually before they uncloak, because infils should counter anything cloaked if you can) ... But I would not miss the cloak flash if it was removed from the game. gimme back da certs and lets get back to it.

This is very late, but NO... What is the purpose of having a flash that can cloak with no weapons when you have an infiltrator that can stay cloaked indefinitely? So you get to a building just a tad faster, the thing does not stay cloaked when you get off of it, so it serves as a warning that an infiltrator is in the building and that defeats the purpose of infiltration. You are trying to catch your enemy completely off guard not put them on alert so they all then equip Black Lights.

I am VERY sure that people who play do not like how the flash is used now. Flash users now revert to the old ways of using the flash. The weapons on them were a great derailment for how they used to be used, now that they are pretty much useless, what is the point of bothering with them? Believe me, a flash has ALWAYS had the ability to destroy a tank in less than a second. Now I care a lot that they tampered with the Cloak because I am a hunter. The sheer thrill of hunting something as large as a tank with a bike set me ablaze, but if I have to be honest my cert gain with them has sky rocketed since this nerf. All I do now is wait till someone makes the mistake of killing me in ANYTHING other than a plane, wait until they are distracted then repeatedly and instantly destroy them effectively running them out of Nanites. If you think the weapons on them are bad, just wait till the old days come back.

At some point they are going to have to stop nerfing because just like what has happened with all the work that they put into making the new flash weapons, it will become a waste of time and money to make them to both them and the consumer. I know I would not buy the new flash weapons with the Flash in this sad state.

As it's a fragile transport vehicle the cost of a grenade.
With weapons, that are vehicle-grade, and able to destroy vehicles & infantry, the price added to cloaking, it was too effective.
Like it has vehicle-grade shotguns on it, with cloaking.
So this cloaked vehicle, the cost of a grenade, is packing speed & a shotgun.

A 25 nanite solo ATV, easily killing a 450 2-man Main-Battle-Tank.
When you can literally can half health that tank, and have 15 deaths to kill it, before even matching them nanite for nanite, it's a bit stupid.
C-4 Flash? Fragile, expensive (all the C-4 on it costs nanites on top), and it couldn't be done that often either.
It even needed set-up.

The delay is too long yes, however the damn thing was too effective for a grenade's cost.
And that's not mentioning the Starfall's 2-burst MBT kill.

Hell, NC's new flash weapon is still horrid, let alone now.

Oh not at all. A flash partner is NOTHING compared to a Decimator to the back. You take one to the back and a full clip of anything, you are either dead or next to it, which is why I said the restriction made since with a Rumble Seat Rider.

The Star fall has NEVER been a 2 burst Main Tank killer.... Ever.... Not even to the back. If you died in 2 bursts, something else tore into you first or was tearing into you at the same time.

You were given a Video that show-cased it 2 bursting an enemy MBT, in the same time it took the Fury to kill an MBT.
A burst is 3 shots, the next burst is an additional 3; The clip holds 3.

Why do you think the Starfall thread talked about the notion that 2 Starfall flashes could erase tanks?
Do you have memory loss?

As a wraith player I'd like to read but this emojis make it too hard

For all of you mentioning the price of the Flash and it's effectiveness compared the price of a grenade, the thing is that you can lob a grenade into a group of enemies and rack up kills, or you can spam grenades and get no kills. The Flash may be the cost of a grenade, but if you use it effectively, you can rack up a bunch of kills. The nerf to the Flash took away the ability to do that very thing as easily and as effectively as before.

A little quad can take out a one person tank, and it should rightfully do so if the driver is skilled enough. A 2 man tank is a bit different, because the drivers skill would then have to surpass being shot at by 2 guns. The nerf to the cloak wasn't needed. It didn't even turn the Flash into a more effective transport, since it can still be easily followed by an ANT which goes the same speed as it, and the Harasser which is much faster than it. Heres what happened to me when I used the Flash Wraith Cloak + Fury.

I saw a player-made base in the distance. I drove up hills to go and attack it, but an ANT was right up there with me. I shot him a few times while backing down the hill, got a few hits on him, and escaped down the hill. He shoots at me but doesn't chase me, and he drives away. At the time I didn't know he had a gunner. I drove back to chase the ANT, and I cloaked, drove up to him, and attacked. He saw me and chased me, but his gunner was an idiot and didnt see me. Glad he was using the Kobalt. Now heres the problem. The ANT and I were the same speed. I COULD NOT GET AWAY. That is the problem with the nerf to the Wraith Cloak. They only nerfed the Wraith without buffing the Flash. I tried to drive away from the ANT. The gunner started shooting at me with the Kobalt, and it was really hard to get away. I only got away because I drove through a very very skinny opening that he ran right into. I made a few more attacks on him, but eventually he said "Screw it!" and jumped out and killed me.

Heres how we fix this while keeping the nerf to the Wraith.

Make the Flash much faster when you cloak or your cloak is cooling down:
This fixes the issue because then you have a chance to get away and it would be much harder to shoot you because you are farther away, so the Tank can't track you with its gun as easily.

Give the Flash turbo like the Harrasser:
This fixes the issue because of the same reason. What I am proposing is that you can have both the turbo and another power, like the Wraith. You can then use the turbo while your cloak is recharging. You are still able to be shot easily if the Tank's second gunner is aware or the tank driver is away. The downside to this would be unbalance, and the Flash may get nerfed again.

Passively make the Flash faster than the Harrasser:
If the Flash is faster, as you can see by the theme of the previous suggestions, then it is able to get away from other vehicles and get out of their range of fire. It would help the Flash survive better, but only for experienced drivers, giving the Flash the skill level to be effective only if you reach that criteria.

Increase the health of the Flash x2:
It would mean that you could make an attack, get shot once, and still be alive. I don't need to explain this one.

If any of you have anything to add or any flaws in my idea, point them out gently and with a grain of salt. (AKA mildness and tact)

I still honestly do not know why it was nerfed. I saw it murdering tanks, sure. Some skilled folks will ALWAYS find a way to do so. That and it being invisible and running a group over. Usually costs the driver his life, but he gets several kills in the process. Too OP instantly called.

What's next, stopping anti-tank mines from being the anti to tanks? oh... wait... Groups already pushed for that.

I like the passive making the flash faster though and the one with it being so while the cloak is on cooldown (though good luck to the programmers on that feat being put in properly).

That said, totally against the health increase as it continues the upward creep of vehicle problems. Doesn't completely solve the flash's issue anyway... Which is that it really had none. If I died to a flash, it was usually due to me playing like trash or being focused as was everyone around me. Else I was solo and just outplayed.

It's the same deal as the harasser nerf some time ago. I'm seeing a trend where tanks/infantry wanna sit and lob back and forth down one directional lane but if anyone's trying to maneuver and flank, nerf'em. How dare they make me watch more than one direction at once.

Your flash was capable of half-healthing an MBT instantly, while equiped with a cloak.
For the cost of a grenade, you nearly took out a 2-man Force-multiplier, on a cloakable ATV asset.
You could, for the same price as the tank, pull 15 flashes or more; And you need only 2 attempts to succeed.

Cost effectiveness was heavy, chain-pull was endless; So the flash's firepower made it too potent if you could fire the weapons.

Add in the Flash having a Shotgun, a cloak, and being this cheap, while armed with vehicle-grade weapons, capable of casually murdering MBTs & tanks.
In which case; Why are you paying 350 nanites for an AV tank, if a 25 nanite flash can do the same Job by sheer attrition.
As if you use it well, you eclipse the tank, as you paid less, and could easily kill it.
If you use it poorly, you just need to get 2 bursts off, and you just erased a higher priced unit for less -- without having a severe skill advantage -- in which case, you can afford to chain pull it rapidly, killing the tank for less nanites.

So if your enemy is chain-pulling flashes, they can sustain this near indefinitely if they can handle the ATV.
Which makes them able to erase tanks, that can't be sustained.

How so; As that target has to kill consectively, numerous cloaking flashes that just need to hit.
Add in 2 flashes, and you're tag-teaming MBTs down instantly.
Add in riders with RL's on top, and you eclipse the entire value of a tank, by sheer price effectiveness.
You can always replace the flash endlessly; Your opponent can't replace their tank 15 times in a row.


Now Ants with cloaking; Those things are a bit screwed in of themselves.
That's an armored vehicle needing AV, can ram tanks to death, has decent health, speed & mobility, and it also can have a Kobalt.

Yes, the cloaking nerf was obsessive, the weapon systems should've been hit not the cloak.
The cloak is used for more than just attacking, and the weapons are typically what made the Flash too effective.

An ATV shouldn't easily survive tank rounds however, let alone with the firepower the Starfall has.
Hell, the Fury is bad enough.

In closing: yes Cloak nerf was crap.
It doesn't need to stand up & compete with harassers & ants. it's an ATV, for 25 nanites.
Some crazy nut put weapons that Harassers would love on a cheaper platform

Hit the nail on the head. Should've been the AV capability of the flash rather than the cloak on it. AI I have no problems with. A flash engaging a group of enemies is usually a dead flash pretty quickly if someone's half-awake. Trade of for being a high priority target was getting that extra omph in his firepower. He can't really shoot or jump unless he's at full speed dodging and he can't aim as long if he's going full speed opening him up to retaliation if he sticks around too long.

As for Ants. I generally got no problems with them currently. Some of the stuff they can climb for being a top heavy vehicle needs some toning down, but other than that I generally see them getting wrecked often due to being a large target. Just as long as they don't get any more AV options. They don't have the Halberd for example and I prefer it that way for the same reason perhaps some of the AV should come a bit of a higher price or lower effectiveness on the little ATV.

The activation cost is what really kills the flash. Wraith gameplay is completely destroyed now.

I disagree with that. First off, the Flash is 50 nanites (not a big difference but just wanted to point that out.) Second of all, you can't casually do anything in a Flash. You can not casually take down a MBT with a Flash, nor casually shoot someone nor casually kill AI. You need skill to do all those things, and you are exposed on a Flash. People forget that that is one of the biggest downsides to using a Flash, along with low health and the weapons are hard to control in first person. All of those are the reasons why a Flash is so low in cost. It's a 1 shot by tanks and anti-tank mines, you can get shot off of your ride, and its hard to use weapons on it effectively. Third off, 2 of any vehicle can down an MBT, and the nerf to the Flash still didn't stop that lol. Fourth, I did not say that it would survive easily. 1 shot of a tank will decimate a Flash. Two shots to a Flash would still decimate it, while 1 shot would set it on fire or low health. Fifth, the ANTs having a cloak is stupid. And sixth, having a rider with an RL wouldn't decimate the tank if they are aware, or have a second operator on their MBT. And seventh, once you have used the Flash once or twice, the MBT driver catches on and they make sure they remember that you are coming back.

The nerf to the Wraith Flash was pretty hard, but that doesn't mean it was well deserved. You mentioned the Starfall too. That doesn't have to do with the Wraith cloak; that had to do with the weapon. Sure the Wraith made it easier to close ground, but it was still because of the Starfall that people got mad. IRL, if you had an ATV to combat tanks, you could mass produce them and screw up tanks. You could shred through their armor and lay waste to an army, yet it would have the same disadvantages as the Flash has in Planetside; those being hard to control weapons, easy to get shot off of, and easy to blow up. The Wraith Flash was annoying when someone had a Renegade. The Wraith Flash was annoying when someone had Starfall. The Wraith Flash was annoying when there was a squad of them laying waste to a battle, and it was annoying when they had RL Heavies on the back. Sometimes you just have to deal with them in a new way instead of complaining, but if your complaints are valid, new options should be looked at to please both parties that the option would include. Not everyone would get exactly what they want. You get a little sugar and a little salt.

It's so cheap, you can chain-pull them enough that it doesn't matter if you suck with them.
The starfall literally is a casually-capable weapon, point flash straight, if you can drive straight, fire weapon.
It was able to take out half the tank's hitpoints; If you any skill, this means you could finish off any tank solo with a cheap as hell ATV with cloaking - which in the middle of a firefight isn't exactly the easiest to find before it fires.

In real-life, if you people to spare who can ride an ATV, that has the firepower cheaply produced that takes out a tank..
Your opponent's million dollar expenses, are basically nullified by cheap.
Which means, You'd never produce a tank on that battle field, that didn't entirely vaporize those vehicles, as if you didn't, Your multi-million tank is too expensive for practical use in that battlefield.
As a cheaper weapon, in bulk, with ease of use, the means to engage quickly in the heat of battle, is able to easily destroy it.
The disadvantages are nothing, when the heaviest vehicle threat is exterminated, and this can be sustained if you have skill with the platform.

Ants with cloaking; Yes I said that was ****** up.
Read the last part of my post. I summarized my entire post's point:
I said it should've been aimed at the weapons on the flash, not the cloak.

Did you not notice, how I hate the weapons on the flash, and how it stacks up, not the cloak itself?

All vehicles in Planetside 2 need weapons. You can't have a vehicle that just acts as a transport. Sure, its helpful to get people behind enemy lines, but that doesn't make a difference if you get spotted while you are driving. The moment someone driving a tank or just anyone for that matter sees you, you are dead. Yknow why? Because when they chase you, you can not defend yourself in any way, shape, or form. Ram them, and you die. Let the Rocket Launcher heavy that is riding in your back seat shoot at them, maybe do a little damage if you can even hit them, but you are then uncloaked and you get 1-shotted by a tank. Should the Flash be able to solo a tank easily? Probably not. Those weapons should be used more for defense in my opinion. That's probably why they were implemented. The Starfall was really OP, but that doesn't justify the nerf to the cloak and not the weapon. The Renegade is still pretty good, but that doesn't in itself justify the nerf to the Wraith Cloak. Those weapons are what need to be nerfed.