Here is a quick example of TTK, when factoring in accuracy, AND reload @ 60 meters. Mochup for the Rebel Lands 6 out of 8 shots @ 60 meters At 261 RPM Only 2 misses is reasonable at that distance with ADS of .3 Time 750 dmg from 6 rounds on target in 1.85 seconds 1.8 seconds reload 4 more rounds for another .925 of a second comes to 1000 dmg That's a TTK of 4.575 seconds @ 60 meters for the Rebel. Mochup for the Cerberus Lands 4 out of 8 shots @ 60 meters At 300 RPM *Assuming 4 rounds land with .6 ADS is reasonable at full rate of fire Time 500 dmg from 4 rounds on target in 1.6 seconds 2.1 seconds reload 8 more rounds for another 1.6 seconds comes to 1000 dmg That's a TTK of 5.3 seconds @ 60 meters for the Cerberus. I would also point out that the Rebel can kill a NW5 player with the other 4 rounds in the 2nd clip. The Cerberus must reload a second time before they can fire off another round from the 3rd clip before they can kill a NW1 player. DISCLAIMER: Obviously factoring in accuracy is not 100% accurate. There are so many things that come into play such as movement, player drift, bullet velocity, leading, server latency, weapon bloom, recoil direction, etc. The above is merely an EXAMPLE of how TTK is DIRECTLY impacted by a weapon's base accuracy, and that by NOT factoring in accuracy in TTK, is incorrect and paints an incomplete picture.
When do you ever use a pistol on someone at 60 meters. You do realize that 60 meters is 10 meters past the max distance in the VR target gallery? Also why does the Cerberus miss twice as many shots as the rebel? The stats don't justify those numbers, nor does my expierences. Your numbers seem rather made up and unrealistic both in practice, paper and common since. Please remember that most pistol's will be pulled at a max of 20 meters, else most people will simply find cover and reload their primary. Else why not compare SMG's to sniper rifles at 100 meters and use that to say SMG's need a buff?
All 3 faction pistols are basicly crappy copy's of the other guns. Though i do agree, you got the worst out of the update, much like Aegis shield's for NC on the max update. Though i do play infilitrator and alot of the posts here about the pistol are silly. We got people acting like they are going to snipe with a pistol, and people that think it should work like an ironsighted carbine. I'd add another 2 rounds in the clip OR up the RPM 100, but it's still a pistol. Inf's will use it as a knife combo or to shoot someone from behind, and the rest will use it as a quick swap when your main gun's clip runs out. Also Keep in mind if your calculating TTK, you assume its 100% accuracy, thats what TTK is. You cannot factor in accuracy reliably, due to aiming habits of players. Some players will naturally fire differnt recoils more accurately. You also really need to test out some NC weapons. Most of our guns cannot be fired accurately at full auto, yet almost all are balanaced using full auto and damage as far as TTK goes. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it to. TR and NC don't got cake either.
The 60 meters was used for easy damage comparison, in the EXAMPLE scenario. The Rebel was calculated at missing 2 rounds because that its actual accuracy when used in the VR at stationary targets @ 50 meters. Taking the Cerberus, with its extremely inaccurate firing, and the fact that it acts like a shot gun with slug ammo; meaning the first round is not dead center, it is a circle, where the first round can be anywhere inside that circle. At max fire rate @ 50 meters, I was able to land 4 out 8 rounds after using the weapon for some time. Initial use, while spamming the trigger to achieve the fastest fire rate, was closer to 2 out of 8 rounds on targets that far away. Please feel free to hop in the VR on Test for yourself. I'd love to see how you seem to have the 'experience' using the weapon, and still have the stance that the numbers are made up. The fact is, 4 out of 8 rounds, is probably higher than most would agree upon. Please prove me wrong. If you allowed the Cerberus to settle 100% between each shot, fired as slow as you like taking all of the time in the world to aim where you want, you still wouldn't be able to consistently land all 8 rounds on a target @ 50 meters. On targets ~50 meters away, I'd expect the weapons designed inaccuracy to cause 1-2 rounds to miss per clip on average. You also missed the point of the post. Everyone is talking about the TTK, but only factoring in 'PERFECT' case scenarios of; highest DPS, 100% accuracy, max RPM... and saying the Cerberus has a 15% faster TTK. When in practicality, it doesn't. Far from it. They need to retune the weapon to fire like all other pistols, and not a slug ammo shotgun. As to your SMGs to Sniper Rifles question, that's completely off mark. I'll explain it so you can understand. I'm effectively comparing a Sniper Rifle to a Sniper Rifle and asking for the weapons to be normalized to have cross faction equivalency. The players here aren't asking for the weapon to be buffed 'BETTER' that the other faction pistols, they are asking for it to be buffed 'UP TO' the same level as the other faction pistols.
Heres some fact for u Pistol will mainly be used by infiltrators, especially after infil update in august (if not delayed... again) and the way infils use pistols is usually a few head/body shots and then a knife attack. Cerberus can kill in 2 headshots 1 headshot + knife 2 body shot + knife Manticore can kill in 3 headshots 1 headshot + knife 2 body shot + knife now compare the rest of the stats of them and tell me if thats reasonable... If you want a fast fire gun to do this infil work then manticore is superior to cerberus in every way, if you want a hardhitter then underboss is superior to cerberus in every way. This cerberus have NO ROLE to fill in its current state, we needed a gun capable of CQC defense, not a hardhitter thats useless outside 8m which your likely to miss every shot on aware targets.
Again, testing a pistol at 50 or 60 meters (which one is it? or did you test them at differnt ranges?) is akin to testing a sniper rifle using hipfire. It gives no real world, useable data. Pistols are inaccurate by nature, and should not be able to reliably hit at 50 meters with max fire rate. Again, a pistol isn't designed to be used @ 50 meters. I can hit 8/8 against a dummy target @ 20 meters with both pistols reliably, and i assume most people can, because i'm not the best shot here. Your test is bogus because its fantasy. It's completely unrealistic. Go back and test it at pistol range, which is 20 meters at most. I've used it, and though never claimed to be an expert, I can see that it is the worst out of the three faction pistol's. HOWEVER, it's not because of firing it @50 meters. I'm not debating the validity of the numbers, i'm saying they are irrelevent. The gun sucks because it's a basicly a bad version of the rebel. NC got a bad version of TR's default pistol, and TR got a useless 6 hit kill with a huge clip. None of these are all that great.[/quote] Seriously, name a time when you used your pistol @ 50 meters in actual combat. Thats getting out of range of the night vision scope. If you want a gun that is accurate at 50 meters, use your carbine/AR/LMG/etc[/quote] If you had slightly better accuracy, and could control the recoil, the TTK would change. This is why most people assume perfect scenarios. That being said, an accurate test would consist of being in pistol range. Being at the max range of most primary weapons effectivness (past damage falloff) to test is a pistol is absurd, inaccurate and misleading. By that same logic all shotgun need a massive accuracy buff because they cannot hit @ 50 meters. You need to realize what the gun is designed for, not what looks the best on paper to try to prove your point. By what? making the gun accurate @ 50 meters? That will do nothing to make it better. I agree the gun needs love, but the arguement you make about it being bad because you can't reliably hit things @50 meters, or that you can hit more reliably with another factions gun is personal opinion. It is not fact, the numbers are trash, and it proves nothing. If you did the same tests at 20 meters, what are the results. Because at least those would have a point and be relavent.
lol Vanon, you're so far out there, it's ridiculous. Here is the grouping @ 25 meters, ADS, 2 clips (16 rounds), crouching, allowing the gun to settle between each round fired. Cerberus on LEFT, Rebel on RIGHT Cerberus is all over the map, including 1 miss out of 16 rounds @ 25 meters with perfect dead center aim. No clue why you're so vocal against what I posted, when what I posted is indeed FACT. How about you post something that actually proves me wrong, instead of whining about the results. Nothing sure as hell stopped you (aside from lazyness) from logging in and posting the results yourself of what ever range you wish to discuss. The whole point of talking about the 50 meter results is because the Rebel has the SAME grouping at 50 meters that it does at 25 meters.
I really wish people would stop crying to have factions EXACTLY the same. Eventually you complainers are going to suck all uniqueness from this game and there will be no differences between the factions other than the colors.
I thought NCs faction bonus was High Damage slow RoF and recoil/accuracy half-arsed. Vanu is quick reload and fast RoF. TR is high clip size. Are we arguing the Rebel having 250 damage or the RoF or the accuracy. Cuz, the cerberus pistol accuracy is pretty scummy, should be alot better than what it is but if that happens then something else would probably get changed like the RoF or the reload. Which woud break the Vanu's faction bonus.
Accuracy The problem is, the Vanu pistol's initial design was to have AOE damage. To compensate for the 'Lash' damage, they made the weapon inaccurate, giving it a 0.6/0.18 ADS accuracy/bloom, which is what you see on shotguns. Sure, sounds reasonable. To gain AOE damage, you lose out on accuracy. After the deployment to Test, they removed the AOE damage, but left in all of negatives that were there to compensate for it having AOE damage. The actual live deployment of the pistol is a sidearm that shoots and acts like a shotgun with slug ammo, is not effective what so ever at range, has no perks, fills no role that VS was missing, and has all of the detractors of the initial design. To top it off, it's a 1000 cert cost sidearm. WTF?!? Even at 250 certs, it wouldn't be worth the purchase without receiving some re-tuning to bring it in line with what it 'should be'. Again, this isn't about making it better than other factions' sidearms, it's about simply making it a usable weapon. The Commissioner and Underboss will continue to be the go-to weapons for VS characters that want harder hitting sidearms, because the Cerberus brought nothing new, and nothing worthwhile to the table. 2 changes really needed to bring the weapon into line Remove the circular accuracy pattern on first shot. Make the first round shoot where the sights are, like ALL other pistols for all factions. Increase the hip and aim accuracy to match that of similar weapons in the same damage and RPM class. The trick to always surviving someone trying to kill you with a Cerberus is to stand still. If you move, you might inadvertently wander into the shots that would have otherwise missed you. - Anonymous Cerberus Surviver
Nah. The rebel has a min dmg range of 15m and 0.3 ads accuracy. Its a beast within 15m and shines in this combat range. The cerberus sucks after 8m.
15 rnd. Mag. out ways the 20% damage increase in the rebel and Cerberus. the 15x200 potential damage vs. 250x8 is a 33% advantage to the 200x15 sidearms. I can wee why someone would want a 500 headshot but with anyone using some nanoweave it negates the two shot kill of the higher damage model, given the enemy has no damage. Having said all this, I use all sorts of pistols. But I use the underboss ( damage per second leader ) Manticore, tx1,and mag shot. Also the Commish. sometimes.
You still are missing the point. Your tests where invalid because they where done at a range no one uses pistols. I never said anything about the pistols balance or accuracy except stating that the cerberus needed some love. Further more, if you started at dead center, the first bullet would of landed dead center, and unless the rebel does not have bloom, its impossible to have the same grouping. the farther back you are, the greater the spread of the cone of fire. Why not simply say "Cerberus cone of fire needs tightening" instead of these tests of swiss cheese. Most of these stats you can already find on the wiki, especially the bloom
You all are a bunch of whiners, Have you ever used the rebel? if you had you would know its TTK doesnt matter much as it rarely shoots straight, you can compare stats all you friggen want but what i have seen is that 9/10 people who have purchased the the Rebel go straight back to the magshot because its 1/3 less ttk and half as accurate. Overall BOTH are useless unless you hit every shot accurately and guess what your version hits more often with less kick and more rounds per second so shut it
Wow, if only the stats backed up your insanity. Reaper, have you been drinking Vanon's Koolaid? http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/pistol/all/overall The free sidearms are #1, #2, and #3 in overall kills. Which is no surprise. However, for the non-free sidearms, the Rebel is leading the pack with over 200,000 kills over the next non-free sidearm. As for the accuracy comparison between the Rebel (23.640%) and the Mag-Shot (20.945% after combining stats with NC4-FB) shows the Rebel is more accurate in actual play. Vanon, let's see that Underboss accuracy... (after combining the stats from the different color models) Commissioner - 25.179% Underboss - 23.850% Manticore - 23.205% Emperor - 21.218% Beamer - 21.010% Mag-Shot - 20.945% Repeater - 18.037% What's that? Underboss is #2 live accuracy across all of the pistols? Sorry, what where you implying? You can really tell when people are making crap up and don't know what they are talking about. Your so called 'experience' you bring to the table Vanon, is not something I would call credible.
