Terminus-Specific Issues

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by Nakar, May 8, 2014.

  1. Nakar

    I like the Terminus conceptually. I like it because, in concept, it's basically an aggressive player's SABR-13, an incredibly accurate weapon that punches above its weight class and is surprisingly versatile at all ranges. The difference being that the Terminus is - again, in concept - weaker on a per-shot basis but more oriented toward a shooting-while-moving playstyle. Essentially it's meant to be the practical implementation of an unintended (but popular, if Higby is any indication) usage of the SABR.

    These are, however, concepts, and they seem to be pretty rough right now. This thread is for discussing the properties of the weapon (p.s. Can we get more detailed stats on these guns? Just saying "they're in, go try them!" is really unhelpful when critical stats like recoil are hidden), potential issues, and how they might be addressed. Note that I don't consider "just replace it with [weapon type]" constructive or useful here unless the concept itself is just unworkable, which it isn't. I think we need to retain the "143 damage burst rifle good at close-to-medium range" concept but look at problems it may have.

    First, a list of potential issues I've observed:
    • The weapon has standard VS DPM of 4290~3750, which is somewhat undesirable in a scrapper weapon. The Pulsar and the like get by on fast reloads; the VS1 has a short/long of 1.75s/2.2s. The immediate problem that jumps out at us with the Terminus is that its short reload is nearly as long as the Pulsar's long reload. Considering the Pulsar is a lot easier to use as an automatic weapon, this seems a bit rough. If the Terminus is going to be useful as a "short to medium range" weapon it probably needs better throughput, either in the form of a larger magazine or a faster reload. The 6000 DPM A-Tross probably shouldn't be short reloading more quickly than the Terminus.
    • The exact DPS of the Terminus has not been datamined since Rate of Fire is "helpfully" not shown in-game for burst and semi-auto guns (fix this please). Let's say for the sake of argument that it's equal to the Pulsar or somewhat higher, in theory, as this seems to be right from using it a little bit. As a 2x Burst weapon, hitting a ROF cap of 698 or higher is quite difficult. The Equinox Burst takes a click rate of around 4 clicks per second to hit 698, but that's a 3x Burst mode. The Terminus, if it's only 698, would take 6 clicks per second. Slightly over 6 per second if its ROF cap is 723. Not the worst necessary click rate (that goes to the Inquisitor, and is a reason SOE considered a 2x Burst mode on it briefly before rejecting the idea), but not nearly as manageable as most things. It's rough enough getting maximum ROF out of a Battle Rifle, so the Terminus risks having a higher theoretical DPS than it can actually practically output from most players. It will be harder to balance a weapon that cannot be consistently utilized between players of different physical capability.
    • The recoil on the Terminus appears to be angled, although the degree of this angle is not presently known (nor is its consistency, which is very important). There's normally not a huge issue with giving a gun angled recoil; the T5 AMC is fine and so is the Zenith. But those are automatics, which require only pressing down on the fire button and then adjustments to aim can be done with the player's full muscle memory. With a burst-mode gun, you're dealing with clicking frantically (up to 6 times per second, remember) while also adjusting the mouse. This can make the Terminus a little bit jumpy.
    • The sustained recoil on the Terminus seems to be a bit higher than VS standard. Probably because it has a negative FSRM; this is nice, but it can take quite a lot of getting used to and is not the most user-friendly thing in a close-quarters fight. Alone this isn't really an issue but with above issues it can be.
    So, what can be done with it? I think there's a handful of possibilities in order of audacity:
    • The Boring But Practical: Bring in the angled recoil and nearly eliminate it with an Advanced Grip like on the Zenith. Either lower the ROF and raise the bullet damage category or make the burst 3x with considerably less sustained recoil so the grouping is tight. If you can do that staggered burst thing the Desperado does, that'd be ideal. Also address the throughput issue somehow; I'd like a larger magazine, but a faster reload is more probable and fits VS concepts better.
    • The TRAP Concept: Give the Terminus two fire modes, 2x and 3x Burst. Make the 3x Burst a higher ROF burst with greater vertical recoil and a low but non-negative FSRM. This is the close-quarters mode, designed for hipfire spam and short-range ADS. It should be easy to reach the ROF cap, whatever it is, in this mode. Then give the 2x mode the negative FSRM and considerably lower sustained recoil, but also a lower ROF cap. This is for accurate grouped shots at midrange. The lower ROF and 143 damage shots will prevent it from being a long-range terror even if it's quite accurate unless the user is patient.
    • The Phaseshift Concept: Alright, let's just throw it out there: address the throughput issue with infinite ammo. A burst gun is ideal for this concept. Basically, if you're spamming the burst at the ROF cap you will overheat the weapon after the equivalent of about 30-36 rounds (36 if it's a 3x Burst instead of a 2x). Give the gun a fairly meaningful reload time like it has now, except maybe a bit longer; 2.4s-2.8s, as this is a "long reload." If you're moderating the burst mode, the gun overheats far more slowly and can put out an insane degree of plasma; tweak the exact buildup and decay rates as makes sense, this would probably be pretty hard to get perfect. The gun can retain its somewhat underwhelming DPS in this form because it will be a completely new concept in Medic weaponry, a more awkward and tricky primary that lets the Medic stay in the field indefinitely but without quite the same level of power. This would make the Terminus a weapon that simply does not exist in any remotely similar form on the TR and NC, which will hopefully make VS Medic look sexier.
    • All Of The Above: Well hey, I can dream, right? I do think the TRAP notion and cooldown thing would interact in an interesting way though.
    Of course these are just my ideas and I'm interested in others. I don't think the gun is fundamentally bad or that its idea is broken and I'd like to see it patched up a bit as, at the moment, it's not quite as "Wow, I want to buy that!" as the Tross and TORQ are right now. Remember, you want people to pay 1000 certs or 700 SC for a sidegrade, so it needs to be something that jumps out at them as a weapon they want to own. At the moment, VS Assault Rifles are in kind of a stale state, so getting the Terminus right both balance-wise and in terms of how "cool" it is are both pretty important. It's not going to be easier to use than the Pulsar or HV-45 by its very nature, so it needs to either be stronger in a practical manner or have something unique that nothing else in the VS arsenal has at the moment. At the moment "accurate burst rifle" isn't even a unique trait thanks to the Solstice Burst, so it needs to stand out from that weapon too.

    But I do like the concept so please, try to work within that and don't just dash off another boring 143/30 automatic. VS often get off-the-wall stuff and I'd like to see that done in a way that makes me want to day 1 purchase the Terminus. I'll do that if it's effective even if it's dull (because so few VS ARs feel effective), but I'll also do it if it's cool even if it's not that great. I'm hype for the TORQ pretty much solely because of how cool and TR-esque it is; figure out some way to address the problems with the Terminus to make it feel cool too.
    • Up x 3
  2. FireclawX

    ^Agreed 100% with this man right here. Give us some uniqueness like the TR and NC weps. Loving the Tross and TORQ, but the Terminus is just a bit lacking atm. It's not super under powered or anything, but some parts of it just feel clunky and unfinished (which is how it should be, as it's still on PTS)
  3. Nakar

    Update tonight added sounds to the new rifles, it also fixed the issue with semi-auto and burst weapons not having their Rate of Fire displayed. So we now have confirmation: The Terminus has a ROF cap of 769.

    That's 7 clicks per second on a 2x Burst and 5 on a 3x Burst. I'm glad it has a pretty high fire rate, but I'm not sure how reasonable it is to actually expect the average player to get close to that cap.
  4. moriarrr-ceres

    With this stats i wont buy or unlock this weapon,
    -it's a carbon copy of the equinox burst
    -it's another 143 damage gun
    -it look like the nova (the equinox look like the pandore also.......:/ )
    -the future gun with the least dpm of the game....
    -the corvus and the EMC are already here for accurate shots.
    This gun isn't released yet and it look boring, they should give it unique model and unique stats....I hope one day they give us more 167dmg guns.
    • Up x 1
  5. NDroid

    I agree, I think the weapon can fill an interesting niche as a viable alternative to the Pulsar VS1 but the RoF is a bit theoretical with the 2-round burst only mode. Adding an additional 3-round option that sacrifices some accuracy to more effectively utilize the weapon's RoF (the TRAP concept) would help a lot and would fit with the VS theme of versatility.

    While turning it into an Phaseshift-like overheat weapon would be interesting it will be very hard to balance (I think the Phaseshift itself still needs a few tweaks as well). With the new ARs slated to be released soon I doubt the dev team will make such a fundamental change in the design.
  6. Van Dax

    current implementation is both boring and under-effective. feels like a cme that requires you to clickspam-and by vanu do we have enough things that handle like a cme.

    also a burst weapon that has no punch has no reason to exist, we already have the incredibly cheap equinox burst. Why would we pay 1000certs/700sc for a gun that doesn't open up any new options?[IMG]
    [IMG]
  7. Bankrotas

    How about Flare style AR?
    • Up x 1
  8. Halkesh

    We already have the beamer and now this... Why vanu are the only faction who need to mastu*bate the mouse ?
    TR and NC are playing planetside 2, VS are playing "Track and field".

    On paper, Terminus is a failed SABR.
    I've not tested this weapon yet, but even with a 0 horizontal recoil to compensate I think it will suck.


    @Bankrotas By flare style weapon, you mean full-auto / 167 dmg weapon ? We already have the Corvus for full auto.
  9. 00000000000000000000

    I'm only disappointed in the new AR as they aren't truly unique weapons. I would like all classes to get weapons like the unique HA weapons (Lasher, MCG & Jackhammer)

    (PS: with an overheat mechanic it should have a smaller clip [Like the Phaseshifts "6" compared to the Spectres 10], spammed it has less ammo, with discipline more ammo, I'm thinking 16-20 shots in quick succession should overheat (so 8-10 trigger pulls, your suggested 30-36 would be very easy to never overheat)
  10. Nakar

    The Terminus has been changed again. A shorter short reload (good!), a 3x Burst (good for mere mortals)... and it seems to have lost the negative FSRM. And the rightward pull is back. This is very, very bad.

    It's pretty much a carbon copy of the Equinox Burst, just slightly better. That's really disappointing. I don't see any reason to buy it now. I think it could be fixed though by reintegrating the old 2x negative FSRM burst, but as it is the bursts bleed ammo and the recoil makes the gun undesirable. It can only really work in its current form by being unfathomably accurate, and it has definitely ceased to be so in the process of moving to the 3x Burst mode.

    :(
  11. Epic High Five


    I believe recoil characteristics can be different depending on fire mode, is the new recoil the same for both modes?
  12. Fned

    I like it. I liked it better with the two-round burst, though.

    But then, I also like the beamer and the inquisitor. Clicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklicklick!:D

    Edit: I also really like the Phaseshift and the Lancer, and an AR with a Phaseshift-style mechanic would probably turn my crank also. However, I can see why they wouldn't want to give an infinite-ammo weapon to a class with infinite self-healing...

    Edit again: I tried the Equinox Burst, and with roughly the same options (Eq has no adv. forward grip, but I used both with high-velocity ammo) I was able to land three-round bursts on the furthest VR targets with the Terminus pretty consistently with only a little practice, and basically still can't with the Equinox Burst. They both play very differently for me (plus for closer in the Terminus has a much higher fire rate)
  13. NDroid

    I really would have preferred to have access to both modes with each one having different characteristics instead of completely removing the 2 round burst option. This would have made the weapon that much more versatile.

    That said, the 2 round burst was more helpful at longer ranges while the weapon is geared towards close-medium ones so having the 3 round burst option is ultimately more important. The accuracy still seems nice in the VR but it's hard to say how well this would translate into actual combat.
  14. Nakar

    If it had both fire modes I think it'd be fine. The 3x Burst is useful for magdumping at close quarters but it can't get the same degree of precision than the 2x Burst can. Give it both modes with varied characteristics TRAP-style, get rid of the semi-automatic mode entirely, and it'd be in pretty good shape.

    But in its current state, I preferred it as a 2x.
  15. Epic High Five

    Oh wait it ONLY has the 3x burst? That's pretty lame.

    Not only should the Terminus get access to 2x and 3x but it should be standard for all burst-locked rifles
    • Up x 2
  16. Heyitsrobbie1984

    they really have to do something about the sound effects. every time i fire the weapon i hear a trumpet going off in the background. that has to go.
  17. TheBlazing

    Hey, what about this:

    > An AR that immediately destroys the shield with 1 shot but only deals 95 damage points, so you need 6 (for health) + 1 (for shield) shots, for a total of 7, to take down a target, just as with any other gun.

    It sounds a bit crazy but that's what I want from a sci-fi shooter. Crazy, original gun concepts. TF2 is set in the 70s and has more original weaponry than this game.
    • Up x 1
  18. OddChelsea

    Someone compared the sound to a seal and I really have to agree. It sounds like you are shooting a seal every time you fire the thing.
    • Up x 2
  19. Heyitsrobbie1984

    that could be it. regardless, it needs modification
  20. Prudentia

    It overtook the Lasher reload "SCREEEECH" in annoyence.