Alright, so I've been around the block when it comes to tank battles in planetside (I mainly use tanks!) Let me just preface my post by saying that I'm not perfect and I have some biases but I have noticed some issues with Tanks that I don't see discussed much. This post will focus on tank on tank combat or their general usefulness in or against an armor column, lastly, the Chimera will be ignored as I have no experience with driving those thanks except 5 minutes in the VR input from NSO mains on the Chimera would be appreciated. I'll start with giving my blunt rating of the MBTs right now and give my two cents into what could be done to make the tanks more even without hitting everything with nerfs (I think buff are usually more palatable than nerfs.) and without removing what makes each MBT unique. So when it comes to tank combat I think the order from best to worst (In my experience and from what I have observed) goes something like this: Magrider, Vanguard and lastly Prowler. Immediately I'm gonna see people go "But Prowlers deal the most damage and Magriders the least." or other things along those line. Yes the prowler has the best DPS by a landslide, but damage isn't everything in a tank engagement. I actually think that positioning and mobility are the two most important elements when it comes to fighting tanks or holding of an armor column. While firepower and survivability are mostly useful for pushing with and armor column. Now this is getting long already so let's go with a quick rundown of why I placed the tanks as they are with a short list of pros and cons for each. Magrider: Fastest (with magburn), good climbing, capable of lateral movement, has access to very accurate weapons giving it the best effective range, small profile. Weak underbelly is more vulnerable than other tanks, can't aim without turning the whole tank, tied lowest health in an MBT with prowler. Vanguard: Largest health pool, highest survivability with the Forward Shield, narrow frontal profile. Highest DPH giving an edge when catching other tanks by surprise. Slowest tank, large rear armor makes it easy to hit from behind, shortest effective range on an MBT. Prowler: Highest DPS that can be further increases with Barrage, fastest tank when not accounting for Magburn, ability to take a position and shell the opposition while deployed. Tied lowest health in an MBT with Magrider, largest target profile of any thank, deploying kills mobility making the ability high risk high reward, hardest tank to maneuver due to size. I'll say it again, those are pros and cons for MBT combat, the prowler is more versatile and better at other things while the magrider is better than other tanks at supporting infantry since it can get anywhere. Now to the balancing! (again, vs Tanks or armor column). The vanguard is already slated to receive a significant combat buff with the Nimitz reactor changes so I won't be speaking about that tank before the change goes live and I can break it in. The magrider is fine as it is since it already has so much going for it. The prowler needs the most change. Fixing it could be done in many different ways such the deployment shield having a fixed amount of health and not hurting the tank, or just increasing the tank's reverse speed to play to it's fastest tank status or just flat out increasing it's health pool to 5500 like the chimera (it is the largest tank and thus should be tough). But any such change would need to take into account the other aspects of the MBT such as it's ability to kill sunderers very quickly or how it can effectively deal with with faster vehicles or farm infantry. Honestly, I'd just further boost the shell velocity when deployed, making it the range king once again (as it was designed to be) allowing it to deal more reliably with long range magriders abusing the lack of bullet drop and strafing while also allowing magriders to keep positional advantage and the ability to flank and kill prowlers Anyways, I want to know what other tankers feel about this and what other ideas the community can come up with. Also please don't just say X or Y is OP, I want a real discussion and solutions that aren't nerfs (at least not directly) to be discussed.
A few caveats: 1: you talk about tanks but leave out the Lightning? Several times in PS2 history you could only get MBT’s from the warpgate or if you owned a techplant, and Esamir wasn’t won so much easier by the faction holding the techplant because the lightning exists. 2: we have done the math several times already, last time using the planetside 2 alerts site. We proved that the Vanguard died the most while killing the least vehicles and infantry (which makes the ministry of truths rant once again false). The Vanguard despite its higher healthpool and defensive shield died more than the other two MBT’s. Your biased for the Prowler. That is why your experiences are so far off. The Prowler and Magrider are relatively close to one another in performance. Look it up yourself. Buffing the Prowler even more is just another kick in the nut of other vehicle players. Also if you think that the Numbnutz reactor buffs are super strong… I mean wow its not like it can tank more than a single shot and the time where this gives you an advantage is still tiny!
Fairly certain the Kingsnake is not comparable to any MBT, and is in a class of its own. Main canon deals 1400+ dmg per volley, spread is unnoticable at 2 hexes away. The secondary weapon of choice is the MR 11 Gatekeeper, that does 800+ per volley. That's 2200+ dmg per volley. Fully reload spec'd, the king snake has the highest DPS per main canon as well... It's a joke that people think there's a "spread" when firing. If I had the patience, I'd post a montage of Kingsnakes running trains from mountain sides, just demolishing with extreme accuracy from literally several hexes away. Mag ride? One shot. ~750... slow moving. Limited Range. Maybe I'm not reading the weapon descriptions right then...
1) The lightning isn't faction specific and I don't use it much so I should have put a note about it like I did the chimera, my bad. 2) I'd like to know who this "We" is because I could find no stats only talking about MBTs vs MBTs (like I mention in the thread). Yes the prowler is better than anything else at killing lightning/sunderer/harasser and infantry and could use a rebalance there or the other tanks could use a buff in that area. If you actually use tanks, you'll find you need to work more for MBT kills in a prowler since landing all the shots on a magrider is never a guarantee and the vanguard can beat the prowler head on with a shield and might do so more handily with the new Nimitz buff. Looking at stats isn't the end all be all. 3) You didn't put a 3: next to it, but I'll address the "your bias is the Prowler" as if it was a point anyways. I did look it up, there were no stats relevant that I could find and me and my group of friends play tanks almost exclusively in all 3 factions. The magrider can do far more than the other tanks but is harder to play which might reflect why the stats you seem to swear by don't match up to reality. If you can forward me stats relevant to that situation, I'd be happy to look at them and admit I'm wrong. In a vandguard, I can rush any other MBT one on one and expect a win, I find it struggles against infantry and harassers more than the other tanks though. The proweler, I need far more accuracy with my shots to perform near the same level and against a magrider that's never a guarantee if they're good they'll maneuver none-stop and vandguards will rotate to show front plate and pop shield making the insane damage of the prowler manageable. 4) The Nimitz buff is tiny? That got a chuckle out of me. 500 hp instant repair when using the shield is not 'Tiny', and the buff are not final. Not talking about a design point before it is finalised is usually a good practice when talking about balance. You say I'm biased for the prowler but I'll be the first to admit it's the best tank in many scenario and is by far the most oppressive to infantry in the open. My issue with it is how it fails as an MBT and how it fails at it's design role as a long ranged tank when the only thing it beats in range is the Vanguard and lightning (even then, the new VS gun on the lightning has no drop making it reliable at long ranges). IMO the prowler needs a COMPLETE rework. I want to address this real quick. The Kingsnake does indeed deal 1400 damage, but the Perihelion does 1425 in a volley (which is about as fast when charged). The kingsnake loses accuracy beyond 1 hex it is not accurate at two hexes, the Perihelion does not have bullet drop allowing it to snipe better than the prowler. Also the faction specific Vanguard gun needs a buff. Also I don't use top guns enough (beyond the halberd SE) to talk so I'll ltry them a bit, but on paper the Aphelion seems to deal near the same amount of damage. The vanguard seems to be the one with the worst top guns when just looking at stats and from experience of other tanker I've talked with.
Most people tend to forget it, or even think the Lightning is unimportant. But its likely the most cost/effective tank in the game, hence the balance between the actual MBT’s matters most for the enjoyment of the players. Looking at stats is far superior to using biased opinions. Check this site: https://ps2alerts.com/ Go to the red bar below the word Statistics. Cycle right until you see the icon and word “vehicles”. Now you can search on vehicles based on things like vehicle deaths and vehicle kills. Find out the truth for yourself. Saying the Prowler is better at everything except tank combat and then claiming the Prowler needs buffs to be more equal in tank combat is rather bad faith. Even if that were true, making the Prowler king at everything and nigh on equal to the others is just making the Prowler even more OP than you claim. You also made comments about tank columns a few times and I thought you included other vehicles in there as well, like 99% of the tank columns in the game (which you should know if you truly are experienced). You don’t fight just other tanks in a tank column. Also also I have actually played the Prowler, and its not actually so difficult. Even the Prowler players themselves claim that it fights basically like a Lightning without realizing how good that actually is. The dual shot is a great boon, making it easier to judge the right lead on an opponent while losing less damage with each miss. The recoil is almost non-existent (hell the Vanguard barely has recoil). Just go to the VR and aim for a MAX, then see at what distance you start regularly missing your second shot. Hint: its going to be a lot farther than you think and missing on a MAX would rarely make you miss on a tank. The Prowler is a good tank. It has no real glaring faults aside from once in a while being too wide for a gap, which is once again once in a while. The vehicle isn’t too slow, too unmaneuverable, too low DPS etc. You fear going toe-to-toe with a Vanguard from the front? GOOD, its the only real advantage a Vanguard has. To complain about that would be like a Vanguard player complaining it doesn’t have the same DPS as the Prowler. And if you truly were an experienced tank you would realize that 1: full frontal combat with Vanguards doesn’t happen that much and a Prowler has plenty of opportunity to avoid it especially if you are experienced. However I have strong doubts you actually are experienced. For example in your opening you claimed that the Vanguard rear was large and easy to hit, while it has the smallest frame of all 3 MBT’s. Also the way you state that makes me think you don’t know how directional armor works and that any hit to the rear automatically deals rear armor damage. The Magrider isn’t hard. How can it? Its the closest equivalent to infantry controls and most people are well able to use a bit of strafing. The fact that pretty much every newb can fire on the move and use the most common combat technique in the game of strafing in and out of cover makes it incredibly easy to get into. The only hard thing is trying to reach the skill ceiling, which is much larger than the other two tanks but that is an advantage. If I needed proof that you aren’t half as experienced as you claim, here it is. Rushing with the Vanguard is the dumbest, most suicidal tactic you can imagine. It works on paper if you are in a 1v1 with enemies that get baited into a slugfest. But as you point out you talk about tank columns, there’s multiple people. Even a single HA with a rocketlauncher can screw your attack over. You require an opponent that is out of cover or does not use his cover, at a specific distance, without the opponent ducking into cover to wait out your shield or potentially circle around. If that shield is gone the Prowler immediately has the superior position as any Vanguard coming around the corner shows first its looong side-armor while you show your front (unless you dummie) and the turret of the Vanguard is closer to the back than the front so you have first strike as well. A Magrider also has a chance to get around and get extra damage on the back of the Vanguard. And no shooting a Magrider on top of you isn’t a viable tactic it carries too much risk. Even a piece of cover for the Magrider or Prowler (or or an unfavorable distance) already ruins any chance that this is effective. And if you actually use the Vanguard regularly you would know that. Nobody but theorycrafting anti-NC players claim this as an effective method. Any newb who tries it tries it once. Theorycrafting based on bias. Also if you let the Vanguard turn and activate their shield and you simply sit there and try a slugfest you are dumb as all hell. The Vanguard turned with its front to you has more difficulty getting back into cover. All you need to do is jump behind cover, repair up while their shield depletes, then attack. The Vanguard has less opportunity to repair its damage (it needs to turn first) and it wastes its shield unless it tries to attack. Which would mean it rolls around that cover while damaged from the opening shots with side armor showing and its shield either depleted or almost depleted. Again a suicide run. Yes, that remains tiny. A real MBT combines firepower, mobility and survivability. The Vanguard operates more like a Heavy Tank (which fell out of favor for good reason). The Vanguard is worse at range. The Prowler’s dual shot and high ROF makes it far easier to find the correct leading to hit consistently. It can also boost that velocity at ranges where hits become tough for both sides and you go more stationary anyway. Since the removal of redeploytime you lose nothing unless your opponent already hits your position as you deploy. Also the Prowler is an all-range tank, its great at brawling in CQC and even better at range. As I said before, it doesn’t really have big downsides. And you know what? This is represented in the stats. The Prowler is doing more than fine.
Magriders are OP. No other tank can elevate onto platforms like the ones at Mirror Bay. Not even sure how the hell they accomplished this but I witnessed this yesterday afternoon on Oshur playing on Connery. Absolutely critical to fair play that this be nuked immediately. I realize the Magrider floats and can climb mountains that other MBT's don't have a chance at doing. I also know it's maneuverability is part of it's defense. However, at what point do you say I think that shouldn't be possible.
Demigan I'm not gonna bother replying any further to you since at this point I'm convinced you're jaded and can't have a discussion or suggest anything relevant. It's also plainly evident you have little to no experience in a Tank, be they small engagements or large one and only look at statistics and think you're always right about everything. My actual JOB is video game Quality Assurance, and User Experience analyst. I do this for a living and wanted to start a discussion about a topic I was passionate about, mainly tank combat. In the industry we don't just look at stats for a reason. (Though some do.) In hindsight this was a waste of time and effort trying to talk about something without it devolving in X is OP. Even WHEN PREFACING THAT IT WAS ONLY FROM AN MBT VS MBT PERSPECTIVE you still complain about a tank being the strongest when it clearly isn't because stats (which btw, still isn't MBT vs MBT stats and thus IRRELEVANT to the discussion I wanted to have). The stats you give also don't paint the prowler as the best tank but rather the Magrider as the better vehicle. It also doesn't take multiple factor such as how many vehicles are pulled, what it killed, the player's battleranks and comparative performance in other environment so on so forth. INCOMPLETE DATA CAN BE WORSE THAN NO DATA and graph are easy to manipulate. Don't bother replying further I won't read it and waste my time. If a moderator comes around and see this, please lock this topic.
Ah so mentioning that if you face a Vanguard from the front as he activates his shield that you could do ANYTHING ELSE than try and win a slugfest is not relevant? Or that suicide rushing an opposing MBT as a Vanguard and relying on your shield is anything more than a suicide rush easily avoided by just popping behind cover and waiting for them to either come to you or hitting them when their shield falters? That is irrelevant too? Sounds more like you don’t like being caught with your obvious failures. You basically admit that you don’t move and try to slug it out. You don’t appreciate the few advantages of the MBT’s and fail to use them accordingly. Well small wonder you aren’t good at your job! A good analyst would analyse first the reception and then look at the background (IE performance stats) to see what could be the cause and what would need to be changed to keep things fun and fair for everyone, not just the Prowler they are biased for. I mean you honestly expect me to believe you do your job based solely on what people tell you? So you would accept blatant lies like the ones you told? 1: the stats are pretty good indicators to how MBT vs MBT combat would go. 2: if you were a good analyst you would know that looking at something without context is a big no-no. As I mentioned before even if the Prowler were actually inferior in MBT vs MBT combat but superior against everything else it would be unfair to overhaul the Prowler to be better at MBT vs MBT combat. 3: your MBT vs MBT perspective contains blatant lies. That makes at least two total failures on your part as an analyst to give a fair analysis. So if anything was a waste of time its because you made it a waste of time. Then do your job and complete it using Voidwell for example! Also if you were honest THE BR WOULDN’T MATTER for example. Because if you start filtering for specific skill levels you are cherry picking to enforce your biased view. Also also if you truly did look up the stats you would acknowledge the Prowler and Magrider are close to one another while the Vanguard is behind. But you specifically avoid that because ofcourse you are a bad analyst who tries to manipulate the answer. You are a hypocrite, since you yourself say that a graph is easily manipulated. But I pointed you to bulk stats where you cannot do that unless you start filtering for specific skill levels or kill statistics (like only MBT’s). And you are so incapable at your job that you cannot even guess the amount of vehicles pulled? I mean the amount destroyed is right there and most vehicles do not decay (and how is decay even recorded in the API? Shouldn’t an analyst investigate that kind of thing so he knows what his data means? Oh but wait you are an analyst that blindly trusts what people tell them despite all research showing how easily that is manipulated or turns into extremes when push comes to shove). Ahw but you already wasted everyone elses time with your bias I mean passion! You are passionate about the Prowler and want it to facetank a Vanguard in pretty much the only situation where the Vanguard has an advantage, and you want to do it without requiring any thought or skill! Just point and click at the big bad Vanguard with his shield up and win automatically! Gee you are such an experienced tanker and capable analyst! Soooo trustworthy. You do have the option to ignore me and only reply to others you know. Giving up this thing you are soooo passionate about that you drop all the nuance and professionalism you should require if you want to be a proper analyst rather than an amplifier for people’s biasses is just sad. Edit: I was curious, we have had people proclaim themselves experienced players or even practically Gods of PS2 before and then find out they barely know the front end of a tank from the back. I tried to look up your stats but couldn’t find anything but a Soltech one without Prowler use? What’s your characters oh experienced fraud?
