[Suggestion] T32 Bull

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by Flea6.8, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. Flea6.8

    Change it to a 125 damage model with 830-850 rpm. You now have a weapon that is vastly different from the Rhino and possible usable. Heck in addition to that you get a weapon that goes back to what the tr are about, mass rof.

    Thoughts?
  2. IberianHusky

    This should probably be a buff for the CARV S. The Bull needs either a damage buff or a COF buff.
  3. bubbacon

    I like the Bull, but I tend to agree that the Rhino is probably better due to its large capacity Mag and extended Mag ability.
  4. boxdirty

    With HV ammo the bull is a medium ranged headshotting machine. Its one of the best LMG's right now. Its magazine size is compensated for with the really fast reload. We better do something about the Carv-S as that weapon is kinda useless. But the Bull is the #2 Tr LMG on my list.
    • Up x 1
  5. Aeravic

    That's basically an LMG version of the TORQ AR lol
  6. Rogueghost

    As someone who has auraxium with almost every LMG in the game I highly disagree, the Bull is easily one of the worst LMGs in the entire game.
    The fact alone that it's a 143/652 weapon makes it bad, becoming one of the slowest TTK weapons is not a fair trade for being easy to control. But it can't even do range right because it's CoF is awful, its only slightly better then the Carv and equal to the MSW-R, a CQC LMG.
    There's really no place for the Bull, in close quarters its bested by everything but the NS-15m and Rhino, while at range its bested or tied with everything but the Carv.
  7. cruczi

    143/652 is automatically bad? Why? No, this game isn't all about theoretical maximum damage at point blank range. Let me explain. If any LMG in the game is worth 1000 certs, T32 Bull is one of them - it is among the best LMG's in the whole game.

    Ranged fighting:
    • Since when is COF an issue with this weapon? It's extremely stable as far as I can tell, all you need is standard LMG burst control, nothing special
    • The Bull has the absolute highest muzzle velocity of any LMG in the game at 670 m/s. Combined with a compensator and a fore grip, hitting moving targets at range is ridiculously easy.
    • Access to HVA to further improve velocity.
    Close range fighting:
    • Fastest reload of any TR LMG. Only 2.89 seconds short reload, versus 3.045 for MSW-R which only has 50 rounds per mag, and runs out much faster due to the 750 RPM ROF
    • Best hip fire accuracy of any TR LMG, even better than MSW-R (3.25 vs 3.75). T9 Carv, mind you, has the worst hip fire accuracy along with Rhino and Carv-S (4.5), so even though Carv is a bullet hose, it sprays them on the walls rather than the enemy in CQC.
    • If you really want to kit it out for closer ranges, slap on the laser sight. It also has access to SPA.
    And unlike half of TR LMG's, it has access to Reflex 2X which for many is the optimal choice for versatility and effectiveness at any range. I can't understand why you think it's a bad LMG.
    • Up x 3
  8. Rogueghost

    Theoretical TTK is the most important part of any weapon, a good player can control recoil, a good player can account for slow bullet velocity, a good player can even make up for a poor CoF, a good player can not make a weapon kill any faster than its theoretical TTK, and when operating in ranges of 15meters or less, its the only stat that maters.

    Because its a 143/652 weapon, the Bull is automatically garbage at close quarters, and having an instant reload or pinpoint hipfire will not change that.

    But what about medium to long ranged combat, which I consider to be the 60-120 meter range, surely the Bull is decent at that? No, its not, while its fast bullet velocity is nice its garbage CoF ruins everything, lets for a moment compare it to the TMG-50. Right off the bat things are not looking good for the Bull, the TMG's theoretical TTK is considerbly faster than that of the Bull's and its bullet velocity is only 55 m/s slower than the Bull.

    But the real kicker, is the CoF, the TMG's standing aimed accuracy is a beautiful .03, compared to the Bull's .1 Now on paper, this does not seem like much of a difference, but in game it is the difference between being forced to burst fire at 100 meters or full auto sniping people at 100 meters.

    And this is why the Bull is a bad weapon, the only weapons it comes out over in CQC is the NS-15m and the Rhino, and at range its beaten by the TMG-50, which also beats in CQC.
  9. cruczi

    Only stat that matters? I never thought I'd need to explain the importance of hipfire accuracy, reload time or controllability to a player with so many Auraxium medals. And I won't, because it's self evident even to newcomers that these things matter. Also, where did you pull that 15 meter figure? I bet you can't back that up.

    You're placing so much emphasis on theoretical TTK that it seems to me your conclusions relate only to theoretical players. If you look at real players, T32 Bull does very well (much of this data is probably before the Bull was buffed):

    Average TTK on LA
    MSW-R - 1.91s
    T9 Carv-S - 1.97s
    T32 Bull - 1.99s
    TMG-50 - 2.10s
    T16 Rhino - 2.22s

    Average TTK on HA
    MSW-R - 3.86s
    T9 Carv-S - 3.98s
    T32 Bull - 4.04s
    TMG-50 - 4.26s
    T16 Rhino - 4.49s

    Of course, these data don't separate between CQC and ranged, but that doesn't matter. The whole point of the T32 Bull is that it's versatile and effective all around, so it's perfectly appropriate to look at the overall performance when judging the weapon versus others.

    I didn't include T9 Carv because it's the starter weapon and its results seem to be skewed because of that.

    I will never understand why people make such overexaggerated claims. Garbage? Be serious. I could equally well say the T9 Carv is garbage in close quarters because it's hipfire accuracy is so bad in comparison to the Bull, and that its high ROF wouldn't change that. Or that almost all small arms are garbage because they have 0.5 ADS speed multiplier instead of 0.75, and that no amount of DPS will change that. None of these claims are true, because this is not how things work. You need to look at the whole picture instead of overemphasizing one stat and ignoring others.

    So it's not even decent if it has to burst fire? Automatic weapons that don't need burst firing at 100 meters are few and far between. It's not really the CoF that matters, 0.1 is perfectly fine for that range. It's the first shot recoil which is very low on the TMG-50 that allows it to full-auto easily at range. What the TMG-50 gains accuracy it loses in versatility and closer range consistency.

    However, I'm not saying, and wasn't saying before, that the Bull is better than TMG-50 at medium-long range. It doesn't have to be, it's still one of the best LMG's overall due to its adaptability and effectiveness at any range.

    Simply not true, actual real world data shows the T32 Bull outdamages the TMG-50 and is on par with Carv-S. Only the MSW-R outdamages it, as you'd expect from the combination of higher ROF and nearly as good hipfire accuracy.
    • Up x 1
  10. Nakar

    I think the Bull is fine, honestly. The last 2-3 rounds of buffs really helped it. I don't see where the Rhino is actually better than it is other than in sustained fire, and to get that it trades worse ADS COFs and worse hipfire COFs and worse attachments and worse reload... not a good deal overall.

    The Bull should be compared to the NS-15M if anything. It has a DPS/TTK advantage over the NS-15M, a slightly longer short reload but a slightly larger magazine, better velocity (now, anyway), same attachment options, and unangled recoil vs. 75% ADS movespeed. Before they "fixed" the drift bug on the NS-15M I'd say that trade was squarely in the NS-15M's favor, but with that fixed the NS-15M actually tugs left pretty noticeably without a Grip on it while the Bull doesn't tug at all with a Laser Sight on.

    Many good players swear by the NS-15M. The Bull is, arguably, at worst almost as good and at best as good or better than it is. Seems like a good balance to me. And yeah, that 670 m/s velocity is sweet.
  11. Danath

    Needs more ammo load, I find myself out of bullets quite often. :(
  12. cruczi

    That's a good sign, isn't it? A soldier who's running out of ammo has done more than his fair share, and a short break in the respawn tube is well deserved. :D
  13. Rogueghost


    Alright, you win, but please allow me to explain my obsession with theoretical TTK.
    I consider myself a pretty decent player and have no trouble landing all of my shots in close quarters, I can often achieve a TTK very close to the theoretical TTK. For a rough comparison my Carv accuracy is 24% and my Bull accuracy is 26% based on these numbers I kill faster with the Carv at the ranges I typically operate at, 30-70 meters.

    And why I dismissed reload time and hipfire as being irrelevant, reload speed because you really should only be reloading after whatever you've shooting at is already dead, having a fast reload speed is nice, but unless you have horrid accuracy it doesn't help in the fight at all. It helps after a fight yes, but I'm basing this all during a fight, a fast reload speed can't help you if the other guy killed you first.
    And hipfire I ADS for almost everything, hipfire is only for SMGs, shotguns, and when I get caught with my pants down and don't have time to raise my sights, thus for what I use hipfire for there's little difference between using the Carv or the Tar.

    And a question, if you will. If your forum name is the same as your in game name, then you don't even own the Bull, why are you defending it so much, if you never used it in live combat. As someone who has minimum of 400 kills with every TR and VS lmg in the game, I can tell you I hate the Bull more than any other weapon in this game.

    And if you don't mind humoring me, try to get auraxium with the Bull, because I can't.
  14. cruczi

    What attachments do you use? Carv doesn't have the 2X reflex as mentioned, which IMO is perfect for that range. It's also one of Bull's selling points, though scopes/sights are always a matter of preference.

    Hmm, can't agree with any of this. PS2 isn't a 1v1 game. A lot of the time you're fighting alongside several teammates against a horde of enemies, and at that point the game can be so chaotic that the shorter the reload, the less likely you are to die. Also, downtime matters, it's not all about TTK versus a single target.

    A lot of the time I find myself hipfiring just to avoid becoming an easy target. I can keep the full 1.00 movement multiplier for ADAD and still hit a fair amount of damage. Often I also expect a fight at near point blank range, and even if I did have time to ADS, it wouldn't make any sense to. E.g. when fighting indoors around corners. So it's not always just for those 'oh crap' situations.

    Indeed I don't own the Bull, I haven't got around to buying it yet because it's 1000 certs :D. I can still defend it based on what I see and read, and based on my experience with mechanics of other LMG's and weapons. For example, I know for a fact, based on how I play and the weapon's stats, that T16 Rhino (my current TR guy's LMG), is piss poor compared to the Bull in all situations. The Bull is just a straight upgrade.

    Oh I intend to.... one day. Auraxiums tend to take a long time for me because I play several characters and classes.
  15. Pineapple Pizza!

    As someone who has auraxiumed both the Bull and the Rhino, both weapons feel identical.

    Giving the bull a 0.75 ads modifier would help define its role as a close-to-mid range weapon, although it would be nearly identical to the NS LMG.
    • Up x 1
  16. harmypants

    My first LMG auraxium was the Rhino, and I have absolutely no intention of picking up the Bull ever. Identical TTK in close range, both have access to my preferred TR sight (1x reflex), both have good enough muzzle velocity that if I feel like suppressing I shouldn't feel it too much, and the Rhino just feels accurate enough without too much thought put behind aiming.

    If I were to do anything to the Bull, I'd bump it up to 698/143 and call it a day. Then instead of comparing it to the Rhino it gets compared to the T9 Carv-S***, and it still separates itself from the NS-15M.
  17. Flea6.8

    Yeah kinda... mind you the lynx has that bullet damage too... So in reality the 125 damage model could be something very tr like the 200 bullet is an nc thing..

    Ive auraxiumed the rhino. Then i picked up the bull it felt exactly the same.

    My main point is the rhino and bull are far to similar and because of that the bull is useless for most people.
  18. boxdirty

    Cause headshotting is as or even more important to kill people. Theoratical TTK is ******** in the eyes of pretty much every good player. As there is so much going on to even give a single ****. You not gonna hit all bullets you not gonna get 100% headshots.
    And thats why alot of people think the Bull is ****. Let me tell you I know people with over 50% HSR on the Bull. Thats what makes it so deadly. Theoretical TTK is theoretical and not practicul so its complete waste of time to give a single **** about


    ************************************************************************************************************************************

    To all the people saying Rhino = Bull. I know headshots are to hard for you
  19. MorganM

    The only time this happens is when you aren't aiming properly. You are spraying and praying. It happens to me so I'm not being some "l2p" jerk here. When I'm focused, coolheaded, and make my shots count... I can get 2 kills easily per mag. When I get supprised or loose my cool and hold down the trigger flailing around... I'm out of bullets with 0 or 1 kill.

    It's hard to come from a gun like the T9 CARV or TMG50 where you get so many rounds it doesn't matter. The T32 Bull (and most guns from other factions frankly) force you to be more prudent with your shots... make them count.
  20. MorganM

    My thoughts? Step away from my Bull !

    Go make a new gun if you want those stats. Go tinker with some other gun. The Bull is an effective killing machine. There are other guns with stellar RoF and even better velocity; go use them. I know I love my Cycler TRV for it's amazing RoF; it's a close range beast. I love the Bull for other reasons and your suggestion trashes them.