Suppressors Handicup... What to say?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by ShotMeTender, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. ShotMeTender

    Ok, here's the matter....
    Since last year, after all updates and hotfix, after reskinning and remodeling, something in the game has changed (not meaning FPS drops or latency), gameplay has become much more unpredictable, much more hardstyle, well let's say it "it is dammit hard to kill some1 by using every single features, instead of usual heavy->rocket->lmg and so on".

    Now is time to discuss something really important like "Suppressors penalties to bullet speed and drop". Starting to say drop penalties do not unbalance the game so much, since u will need to calculate a drop penalties only with long ranged weapons, which means u will mount a reticular scope with distance references under the cross (so do not cry that much and become a good sniper by calculating distances on the scope). Something completely difference is the deep unbalance provided by bullet speed decrease. I partially agree to give penalties to suppressed weapons, but honestly not so HARD ONES and above all not to any kind of weapon.
    I mean there is a good reason to balance suppressed LMG which are actually similar to FULL AUTO SNIPER RIFLES (yes, lol), but really do not see any sense in nerf so much suppressed SMG and HANDGUNS.

    Considering the current crazy dynamics of the game, scoring kills with a suppressed handgun become possible only LURKING injured people from behind while are reloading, and SMG become useless by 30 meters away.

    This is what i am suggesting, reducing muzzle speed penalties by categories and reduce a bit the whole penalty settings from the actual 40% about, to 30%.

    This could be a good example: (-XX% from current penalty, cuz i am not entirely sure about the 40%)

    LMG: -5% penalty to speed, same drop penalty.
    SNIPERS: -15% and 10% (bolt and semi) penalty to speed, -5% both to drop penalty
    CARBINES: -10% penalty to speed, same drop penalty.
    ASSAULT RIFLES: -15% penalty to speed, same drop penalty.
    SCOUTS: -10% penalty to speed, -5% drop penalty.
    HANDGUNS: -15% penalty to speed, well consider to INCREASE drop penalty, cuz some times i scored some mosquito HIT (without suppressor ofc), and a pistol should not get over 100 meters even in real life, that means a effectiveness distance of about 50-60m. So consider to increase drop penalty by +10%, perhaps try to increase max damage distance instead.
    SMG: -15% speed penalty, same drop penalty. --> PLS CHANGE SOUND OF TR FARTING SMG and VS WHISPERING SMG.
  2. ColonelChingles

    In PS2, lower velocity and bullet drop are generally linked. If the round moves slower, then it will drop sooner (and thus more drastically).

    In IRL, suppressors are often paired with "cold loaded" subsonic ammunition. This is because if a bullet leaves the barrel at a velocity of over 343m/s, it will break the sound barrier and make a loud cracking sound. It doesn't matter if you have a really good suppressor if your bullet makes a loud noise when it leaves the suppressor in the first place.

    For example, consider 62gr. 5.56, which normally leaves the barrel @ 940m/s. Subsonic 60 gr. 5.56, on the other hand, only moves at 300m/s, which is close to a 70% reduction in velocity.

    Needless to say, this also results in greatly reduced wounding and penetration power for suppressed bullets. Suppressed 60 gr. 5.56 only has a muzzle energy of 178 joules, which is closer to the diminutive .22LR cartridge than a full-sized rifle bullet.

    Essentially, suppressing a 5.56 assault rifle transforms the round on the left into the round on the right.


    So we should probably nerf suppressors more... they should do far less damage at a much slower velocity.
  3. Ryme_Intrinseca

    Suppressors would be pretty much compulsory on short-mid range weapons with these numbers. A 10-15% velocity penalty is negligible except at long range. I prefer the current situation where there is genuine competition between suppressors, flash suppressors, and compensators rather than suppressors being the 'one attachment to rule them all'.
  4. Demigan

    Im wondering why on earth you even need a supressor on a long-range rifle.

    Its very simple. A supressor removes your auto-spot on the radar when firing. If you fire at long range, you dont show up since the target isnt close enough.
    Long range is better off with a flash supressor so its harder to get where its coming from.
    This balances everything out nicely. In cqc a supressor works but you can be found quickly because you are nearby. At longer range you Use flash supressor to remain less detectable, but are more easily tracked when someone gets closer. Or you go vanilla and just murder someone and relocate quickly, preferably while surprising anyone Who comes looking for you by being somewhere else than the radar suggested.

    A supressor+long range shouldnt make you completely invisible, and for once the early developers knew perfectly what they were doing
    • Up x 5
  5. ShotMeTender

    1)Suppressors will never be the ONE RULING attach at all, since many open field situations really do not fit the stealth set-up (u know, HE spamming on fields and so on...).
    2) Colonel u are making a wrong example just proofing i am right. What u said about 5.56 (most orrible/useless caliber in the world, just my personal opinion, nothing less and nothing more XD .308 rulez) is true, that's why i talking about not so much difference for "Big" weapons and just less penalties for HandGuns, small caliber are not included in what u are saying at all! The bigger the weapons is and the higher the muzzle penaltie is, cuz of balistics impairment during gas blow-out. But pistols get a completely different way, and usually the Suppressor itself is as long as the gun which is mounted on, another significant parameters to deal with.
    3) Ryme u didn't understood what i said about penalties reductions-> 15% from CURRENT penalty valuem that means 40-15=25% in the highest case. I never said 15% penalty on muzzle velocity! Even a joke to call it penalty don't u think?!?!?

    But hey, this is only a suggestion, if people really likes shooting fruit-candies instead of decent threating bullets, so be it! I am still getting fun with 3x burst weapons.
  6. adamts01

    Most people using suppressors in actual combat aren't using subsonic ammunition. Yes you hear the crack of the bullet, but the noise is still drastically reduced for the shooter and you can't locate the shooter even with supersonic ammo. So in real life, not only are you unable to locate shooters using supersonic ammo, the velocity is the same, and often you actually get improved group consistency. As for the 5.56 turning in to a 22, yeah, and that's exactly why no one uses subsonic 5.56, they go with a round that doesn't need supersonic velocities to do their damage, like a 45 or 300BLK. So switching from a 7.62x39 to a 300BLK more accurately represents what happens in this game, not a 5.56 to a .22. I'm not really against the system we have, but it's entirely unrealistic, like with the ballistic example you gave.
  7. adamts01

    Even with suppressors having zero velocity penalties, people would still bring compensators for recoil management. I think all of them will always have a place.

    5.56 hollowpoints tear **** up, **** NATO.
  8. BartasRS

    Totally agree with you. If we take sniper rifles as an example, equipping supressor only ***** you while not providing anything in return. One could argue that suppressor can be useful while sniping from mid/close range but we have much more proper tools for this kind of combat. I would gladly take flash suppressor on my sniper rifle but there is a problem... no sniper rifle has it available :d
  9. Diggsano

    I always enjoy my handy cup full of coffee
  10. ShotMeTender

    Finally some1 who can really get the point.... Even not talking about realism (and we should really do it anyway) we still got a really lack of balance between weapons, in a larger measure if considering difference between classes set up... That's why actually, scoring a kill on heavy assault using a common pistol (and i mean from 100% health to 0% without kill stealing) is nearly impossible, if not ganking him while on lock on scoping the air.

    Taking a realistic trend about game evolving, the only way to balance infiltrators shall be fixing unbalanced matters like this, or in a not so far future, giving infiltrator primary weapons even on stalker cloack, and it still could be not enought to "save" the class at that time.

    Personally, i prefer a less nerfed set up as a proper suppressor or a better performing secondary threat then having a permanent stealthed bastard spamming SMG bursts or sniping from 2km away before vanishing into nothing at will. This is why many and many games fails, nerfing so much something till the point u need to OP BUFF him to make it barely work. PLS DON'T!

    Just for making the point: Pls fix senseless nerf before u will have to overbuff to balance once more... (not joking about farting and whispering sounds btw, u really got to providing something better)
  11. Diggsano

    It would be cool if you are finally full invisible ONLY during deepcloak!

    This or primary with only half as much ammo than hunter cloak
  12. ColonelChingles

    That's only partially true. The reason why the military doesn't use subsonic ammunition is because it usually doesn't cycle in rifles. They use plenty of subsonics for 9x19, which does function reliably. The sonic crack is still a significant problem and easily reveals a shooter's location, nullifying the point of the suppressor.

    That and 5.56 subsonic would be ineffective against personnel in body armour (even low-grade police armour).

    As for alternative rounds, sure those are possible, but not in a field expedient way out of the same rifle. In other words, you can't simply slip on a suppressor and magically change your rifle to fire a different cartridge... .300BLK is famous for a few accidents where people thought the cartridges were interchangable.


    In short, with the way suppressors work in PS2, they are likely paired with special bullets or reduce muzzle velocity significantly. This is why it is perfectly fine that they give their performance reduction, and if anything at all they should be nerfed more.
  13. ShotMeTender

    Just OP. Let's think about a stalker ganking a heavy from behind using an SMG...yeh yeh i know, heavy just godlike, wrong example... let's imagine same thing on a LA,ENGI or MEDIC..... U could easly start the ambush on a fast headshooting by the first 3/4 bullet and then due to horizontal dammit hell f***ing recoil still score the kill on body hit... This is not really a good balance gaming, and i am speaking as infiltrator player.

    I can assure u, stop nerfing randomly little things like suppressors, CoF on semi-auto, (sway on a dammit 1x night vision scope) and so on would be enought... And about suppressed sniper rifles, well, u think are useless just cuz actually is damn hard to infiltrate behind enemy lines and scoring some good silent kills on a 7x/8x scope. But this should be the right way to use both long ranged and mid ranged sniper rifles.
  14. adamts01

    All that's needed to let a rifle easily switch from subsonic to full power ammo is an adjustable gas block. At least for ARs and AKs, I don't have any experience with modified roller locks or delayed blowback systems. And like you mentioned, there are calibers out there which are very effective either full power or subsonic. Changing calibers in the field isn't practical, but switching mags and turning a knob on your gas block is. So the real reason you don't see silent fire is because of it's performance loss and extremely limited use in normal combat, not it's difficulty in implementing.

    As for the sonic boom giving away the shooters position, I still disagree. I've been on the receiving end of long range fire and the crack of the bullets sounded like it was coming from all around me, but the sound of the shots that soon followed was easy to locate. I think in the not too distant future you'll start seeing basic infantry with suppressors. You don't need hearing protection with full power loads, they often increase accuracy, less recoil, no flash, harder to locate the shooter, they're starting to weigh next to nothing, easily maintained in the field. The only real downside is overall weapon length.
  15. adamts01

    My experience in real life differs with this, and after thinking of the physics behind it I can explain the situation. A sound wave is a sound wave, and I was contemplating why the noise from the expanding gas out of a barrel gives location away but not a sonic boom originating from the barrel, then it clicked. The expansion of gas is a one time boom, and it originates from the end of the barrel, so it's easy to pinpoint where that sound comes from. Where as a sonic boom is a wave that trails the moving object. As long as the object is still supersonic, the sound that you hear will be the front of the wave that's behind the bullet, and the further the bullet is from the shooter when it passes you, the further the origin of the "crack" will be from the shooter. Imagine if there was an explosion propelled a supersonic plane from a runway and you're 2 miles away. As the plane flys over, you hear the sonic boom from the plane, not from the runway where the plane was first supersonic. Anyway, that's my best explanation of it.
  16. Diggsano

    Absolutely wrong target dude, i go never without silencer ;)

    But the Deepcloak should be better or at least free of bugs...
    • Up x 1
  17. ColonelChingles

    ARs require pretty much a dedicated upper to be able to cycle subsonic 5.56, and cannot safely fire supersonic 5.56. An adjustable gas block, in most cases, will either not be sufficient to function or will be exceedingly dangerous. There's no real good solution to the issue of having a standard issue rifle be fitted with subsonic ammunition. The US military simply chooses to use supersonic ammunition in their weapons, because as I explained before, one cannot simply feed their standard rifle with a subsonic load and still expect everything to go fine.

    There are certain calibres that are more suitable for subsonic operation (.300BLK or 9x39 as a few examples), but in these cases the rifles aren't standard issue... they are specialised rifles meant specifically for suppressed usage.

    A suppressor paired with supersonic ammunition certainly has some advantages, hearing protection like you mention being one of them.

    However, it is very easy to observe the downsides of using a suppressor paired with supersonic ammunition.

    1) The shot still makes an audible sound. This informs people in the area that shots are being fired, and even if the direction is unclear (which may be the case anyhow from inside a multi-room building or a thick vehicle) the people are put on alert. While certainly a suppressed weapon with subsonic ammunition isn't totally silent, the noise reduction from using subsonics can be very significant.

    2) Direction can still be determined from the supersonic crack alone, particularly in open areas. This is fairly observable in the parking lot near a firearms range, where the general direction of the shooting can be determined from the cracks (which seem to carry more than the shot). On an open firing line, I can pretty easily determine if the shooting is coming from my left or my right, which is pretty good considering my muffs only have stereo sound.

    3) Sure the person who is being shot at might experience some baffling effects from the supersonic crack as it continues with the bullet, but the location of the shooter can be determined by other people in the area. Through triangulation, this can allow a squad to determine the location of the shooter, or just simply direct a person in one direction instead of having them search 360.

    In the end, a suppressor paired with supersonic ammunition shouldn't give the benefits that it does in PS2 (ie masking the presence or location of the shooter). If someone is shooting at you with supersonics, you can still figure out that 1) you're being shot at and 2) the general direction of the shooter.
  18. ShotMeTender

    Agree,that's the point... Infiltrator lack of sense without suppressed weapons,the only case u can avoid to use it, is on front to front standing position zerging (biolab platform and so on....) where u know where enemy is and same for the other side, in that case your team is all around u so u really don't care a hell to be detected cuz HA and LA will watch ur back.
    All the remaining gameplay should be playied with suppressed weapons.

    This is cuz i really suggest to reduce suppressors nerfing, even on LA carbines it lack a lot of effectiveness, shooting to the target will make u miss the hit by almost 1 meter away cuz of reduced muzzle, and high speed bullets only provide a 5% which is actually more similar to a bad joke than a technical statistic.