[Suggestion/bug] VS MAX weapons stat Errors

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by S0LAR15, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. S0LAR15

    OK, so with the MAX weapon changes I decided to have a look at all the VS MAX weapons, and soon saw some errors in stats for CoF and other things that didn't really make sense/seem to be pretty mixed up.

    Here is the VS MAX weapons for reference, the in-game CoF stats aren't quite all correct though honestly that is fine with me, there's bound to be a few errors on the first implementation. No worries.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLWc&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=16&filterstr0=VS&colid1=17&filterstr1=MAX (AI)&colid2=6&filterstr2=Auto&colid3=10&filterstr3=1.5x&sortcolid=4&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

    Here is the VS and TR stats:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLWc&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=17&filterstr0=MAX (AI)&colid1=6&filterstr1=Auto&colid2=10&filterstr2=1.5x&sortcolid=4&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

    The Quasar is reasonably well balanced and seems to compare perfectly with the Heavy Cycler, (17% more damage 20% less RoF, less ammo per clip, less reload etc, 5% more accurate, 2% less DPS). Thus using it as a bench mark for sidegrading to the other VS MAX weapons seems pretty logical.

    So onto to the issues:

    1. The Blueshift. Has no redeeming stats at all. It is supposed to be like a Mercy, an accurate VS Max weapon.

    For this, relative to the Quasar it has -14% Damage, +10% RoF, -10% CoF standing & moving, -20%/-10% CoF crouching and crouch moving, AND just when you thought it couldn't be more defunct, it has 20% less ammo per clip, and 20% less ammo pool, and 5% quicker reloads.

    i.e it is not more accurate. The CoF values should be lower, like those of the Mercy. ~0.6 lower for standing CoF and ~0.4 for crouching. These aren't as great as the gains in accuracy for the Mercy, as the mercy gives up 12% damage for only 6.5% increase in RoF, as well as a slightly longer reload (although the Mercy does get shed loads of bullet velocity as well and doesn't lose as much % ammo in its clips)

    I *think* see how this has come to be, human error/oversight (though it is an old one): if you revert the 0.1 CoF buff you gave the VS weapons, you get 2.25 and 2.75 for standing and moving CoF respectively, which is exactly 1 greater than the CoFs for the "accurate" TR sidegrade, the Mercy. Someone must have put in 2.25 instead of 1.25, and this must have been like this for, well.......... since launch. Anyway.

    The second thing with the Blueshift is its Bloom, seeing as Bloom throughout the game is connected to the damage of the bullets, it should be 0.05 and not 0.06. as this is a 143 damage weapon and not a 167 damage weapon.

    With CoF changes like those outlined above, the Blueshift would represent, properly, the Accuracy sidegrade it is supposed to be. It trades damage, clip size and ammo, and overall theoretical DPS (which would be relevant at close ranges <15 m, where most bullets would hit) for increased accuracy, and more RoF.

    2. The Nebula, actually is sitting in exactly the right place mostly. Even compares perfectly with the analogous TR sidegrade, the Onslaught.

    The only thing I'd suggest is giving it the same CoF as the Quasar, which is to say give it the -0.1 CoF that you gave all the other VS MAX weapons in GU07. I know you elected not to give it that for some reason, but looking at the comparisons of sidegrading with the Onslaught, the Nebula sacrifices more damage for the same RoF%. I'm tired of VS weapons having to settle for having less sidegrading compared TR or NC, so a small (5%) accuracy buff would go someway towards balancing that out, whilst not homogenizing the weaponry.

    And no Bullet drop is not a good enough reason when the velocities are gimped across the VS weapons anyway (granted not in this one case), and the no BD is already accounted for with the TR having a bigger clip, bigger clip total damage (~5%) and greater DPS (~2%). But still the greater damage sacrifice (17% vs 14%), statistically, is enough to warrant the small accuracy buff given to the default Quasar.

    3. The Cosmos. Looking at this I was confused. It was traditionally the best VS MAX weapon for months, way back to Nov last year I believe, when I got two of them.

    Given the gimped state of the Blueshift and the *slightly* underpar Nebula there is no reason for players to rusdh out and to give these up yet. However if the bug/errors with the Blueshift are fixed, and the Nebula given its small recompense of greater accuracy for having less DPS and less total damage relative to its TR cousin, there will be serious alternatives to the Cosmos, for the first time since Oct/Nov last year........

    Those who compare the The Mutilator and the cosmos weapons to the default will see:
    Comparing the Cycler to the Mutilator (the TR high ammo equivalent), the mutilator is a straight upgrade and not a sidegrade. Yet I'm fine with this, the default weapons are kinda lacking in actual fights anyway. The Mutilator has a 66% bigger clip, and 10% greater bullet velocity. Yes reloads are longer but you've got a 100 bullet clip! I don't think that longer reloads in this case make anything more than common sense, plsu they are not even proportionally greater, nowhere even close.

    The Cosmos, relative to the Quasar is a 50% bigger clip and a 10% reduced velocity, but with a 20% decreased CoF. I think this could stand to be 15% decreased CoF instead of 20%, but w/e. I believe this smaller CoF is justified relative to Mutilator given the sacrificing of 10% bullet velocity and the substantially total lower clip damage (~14%) and slightly lower DPS of the Cosmos (~1%). If TR players disagree then we can surely stand to see the velocity increased to 450 from 400, and the clip size increase to 83 from 75, with reloads also slightly longer, to mirror the straight upgrade status of the Mutlitor, but relative to the Quasar. Though this homogenizes weaponry which I'm really not a fan of......

    Make these changes for the next GU and bring some semblance of use to the VS MAX weapons, ESPECIALLY the Blueshift, which I'm eager to try.

    Thanks if you read it all.
    • Up x 1
  2. S0LAR15

    I should add I've tested the accuracy CoFs in game as well, and they seems to corroborate the spreadsheet stats.
  3. MNO

    I haven't really read any of that and I'm too tired to but, **** man - good job on all the theorycrafting, keep up the good work :cool: Free bump I guess!
  4. S0LAR15

    Thanks, it needs tweaked. Especially the Blueshift.
  5. S0LAR15

  6. Ghosty11

    It's kinda of funny that they nerfed the Bluesh1t even further with the latest patch, considering that is was the worst VS AI MAX weapon prior to the patch.
  7. Sov21


    well the flat 143 damage was nice, but its just to inaccurate to hit things at that range to benefit from the bonus.

    So its far outclassed by the Cosmos, and now the Nebula too (more dps, less accuracy than Cosmos)

    Personally I will be sticking with Cosmos as I value the accuracy highly
  8. S0LAR15

    The blueshift is supposed to be more accurate, like the mercy, which has flat damage also, (though at 125, it has higher ROF, so it's still higher DPS).
  9. Tenhi

    They ninja buffed the Blueshift with the Hotfix. It has now the accuracy of the Cosmos. The Cosmos has the accuracy of the Blueshift. So yeah the Blueshift is now a really good long range MAX AI. The Cosmos is now the utter crap that the Blueshift was.

    Lucky us VS that all went and bought the Cosmos... after it was praised by the Devs as being the most accurate...
  10. Xae

    On the plus side the Cosmos get nerfed into the goddamn ground.

    The Cosmos CoF area was more than tripled.

    RIP Cosmos: Best Max Gun for 20 hours.
  11. S0LAR15

    Really? I havent seen it yet. Then why don't they give it default accuracy NOT WORSE ACCURACY!

    I mean who is changing these numbers? A frakking 12 year old intern?
  12. InvalidCast

    Yes looking at the updated spreadsheet the Cosmos now has a worse COF than the default Quasar. I really hope that the devs realize the Quasar's COF is the main reason why everyone hates it so much and why VS Max is hardly played. The Cosmos is what most people that do go AI Max have invested in and now you have just made it worse than the Quasar....

    Yes, I know the description says Blueshift is more accurate and that there are some people who bought them thinking that was the case but you just made even more people mad by doing this to the Cosmos.... Can we get an exchange or something?
  13. Quiiliitiila

    Yeah, the cosmos' are friggan crap now. The deathly awful accuracy at range coupled with the hit detection bug up close makes it so most of the time you're firing them, you won't hit a thing...

    Why nerf the accuracy to less than par? Why not just make the blueshift MORE accurate and leave the cosmos the way it was? Aside from the argument that the cosmos has more ammo and slightly better damage, it's a piece of TRASH now. Who cares if I've got more ammo? That just mean I miss with more shots...
  14. S0LAR15

    As I laid out above, it's not like gains as much ammo % wise as the mutilator, and it doesn't gain 10% bullet velocity, so it could actually stand to be slightly better in another area, granted its COF was probably too small but it should not have been made larger. Give us am analogous side grade to the mutilator please, or refund these POS's.
  15. ROCKFIISH

    Bump, SOE needs to do something for those who got mislead by their stat mistake.
  16. gigastar

    Honestly i was running around with my dual Cosmos earlier today and the only thing i noticed that was different was the new models for VS MAX weapons.

    Though i probably did not notice because my approach to using the Cosmos even before the update was to walk up to my opponent and go 'dakkadakkadakkadakkadakkadakka' until one of us dies. Usually them.
  17. S0LAR15

    To update: since this thread is pre ninja nerf/buff to VS MAX weapons.

    Someone, managed to place the Cycler and the Quasar into the following trade off. If by accident I'm not sure but anyway as you can see it is a fair trade off.

    The Cycler relative to the Quasar has
    18.7 Greater RoF
    14.4 Less Damage per bullet.
    1.6% More DPS.
    4.2% Less accurate.
    20% greater clip size.
    15% longer reloads.
    Same bullet velocity.
    Has bullet drop.

    This is an example of how empire traits can be balanced against one another. The two are nearly identical in real terms, but TR have their larger mags, VS have no Bullet drop, AND TR have higher DPS, VS have greater accuracy. Meaning that close up the TR should have an edge and at long distance the VS should have the edge. And we're not talking about big edges here either in each case. (As you'll see below I propose upping TR RoF to give a ~3% edge on DPS to further diversify the empire MAX weapons)

    How SOE managed this, I don't know they only got it to this state with the small 0.1 accuracy CoF buff to the Quasar with GU07. Before that it was simply the case that the TR Cycler was a straight up better weapon. The VS having no real advantage over it in any area besides slightly greater alpha damage which only really comes into its own vs specifically wounded targets.

    Anyway, somehow this point was reached and it basically breaks down as even, with clip size and BD trading, and DPS and accuracy trading.

    To bring this same perspective to the remaining VS and TR weapons is easy; Here's what needs to happen to convince me this game is not being balanced by a collective of apes (no offense, I'm just mad right now):

    Use this to see the current state of the weapons:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLWc&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=17&filterstr0=MAX (AI)&colid1=10&filterstr1=1.5x&sortcolid=28&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

    Relative to default:

    Onslaught and Nebula:
    ~10% higher DPS MAX sidegrades, with greater damage drop off, less alpha damage:
    Nebula Bloom 0.06 to 0.05, same as onslaught
    Onslaught has 0.1 greater CoF in all modes.
    Onslaught RoF from 492 to ~502 rpm
    (stat trade ~4.2 % accuracy for VS, ~3% higher DPS for TR, 20% greater clips for TR, No bullet drop VS)

    Mercy and Blueshift:
    ~30% greater accuracy sidegrades, No damage drop off, 7 - 10 % greater RoF, with 10% less DPS, less alpha damage, and 15-20% smaller clips.
    Blueshift - no changes
    Mercy RoF from 426 to ~434 rpm
    (stat trade ~4.2 % accuracy for VS, ~3% higher DPS for TR, 20% greater clips for TR, No bullet drop VS)

    Mutilator and Cosmos:
    Higher ammo capacity sidegrades:
    (Currently the mutilator is a straight upgrade, the cosmos is a downgrade, thought not completely, it is a downgrade not worth considering.)
    Cosmos should have 66% more ammo not 50%, i.e 83 bullets.
    Cosmos should have same as default firing CoF as Quasar.
    Both weapons: Reloads should be 80%, longer not 15% longer.
    Both weapons: Velocities should be ~425.
    And possibly
    Both weapons: Maybe reduce RoF by 5 - 10% if not enough of a sidegrade.

    That was easy.

    This in my not so humble option would provide a perfect difference between TR and VS MAX weapons, whilst maintaining identical sidegrade balance. This balance could of course be changed from this point to provide more extreme stat changes specific to each weapon but the main point is to understand the trade offs for each faction, and make sure that if you do say give TR higher RoF than suggested, that VS has a counter increase in another stat like recoil or CoF etc on it's analogous gun.
  18. Backf1re

    So they fixed your MAX weapons, are you complaining about them performing as they intended now? Our MAX weapons got balanced and made them worse, spread/ROF/ammo all got hit hard, yours are hardly anything to worry about.