Stats stats stats and stats ! NC hardmode version 2

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by CoreCombat, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Kid Gloves

    From my admittedly limited experience with NC stuff, it seems to me the NC weapons are balanced to be optimally effective in scenarios that just rarely happen in PS2.

    PS2 combat is very heavily skewed towards close-medium and CQC engagements. NC weapons aren't good CQC weapons - I guess the mindset is "they are NC, they should pull out a shotgun!"

    And then they nerfed shotguns (to make SMGs more appealing?)

    I can't help but wonder whether NC would see an increase in performance if the bases were more spread out and the ability to teleport from base to base was lessened/removed. It'd create more situations where single-shot or short burst gunplay was optimal, and this is what NC weapons favor with their higher per-bullet damage.
    • Up x 1
  2. Keiichi25

    Actually, it doesn't prove the VS or TR players are better. It does prove slightly that the TR and VS players do have weapons that favor the more LCD (Lowest Common denominator) play style, which is generally pray and spray weapons.

    The stat monkeys will point that the TR being 'top' on the Rocket Launcher will be due to the Striker, and the VS being top with the MAX AI weapons will be due to the ZOE and the TR MAX AV weapons due to the Fracture.

    The issue is more on some of the weapon mechanics that NC have that even some of the more experienced NC players will still have problems. For instance, the classic issue with the NC AI weapons, as much as people hate the fact that those shotgun weapons are hell at close range, you are also looking at 'minutemen' in comparison to the VS and TR. And by 'minutemen', I'm talking their lasting power is like an excited teenage boy blowing his joy button in less than a minute, and in all honesty, the NC shotgun MAX, even with the one with the 'longer combat time' are short lasting and need to fall back for ammo again. Even with the TR and Vs also not opting for the extra magazines, their 'staying power' is going to be more than the NC because the NC Refire will make them eat through their magazines and ammo faster in order to achieve a kill than you would with the TR or VS MAX armors using Mercies and Nebulas. The effectiveness of the shotguns are only lethal when their targets are closer than 30m, where as TR and VS can still engage targets with a bit more effectiveness from 30-75m. Add to it, the TR have fractures that are actually more effective spam wise at hurting vehicles and killing the more stupid vehicle users, but also a bit better at killing infantry with 10 shots per arm and splash in comparison to the Raven which is limited to about 300m and turns similar to the AV turret and only 5 shots per arm. For the NC, their engagement venue with AI MAX armors are in close and ambush level ones, which while it is murder in close, when they engage at a distance, they aren't nearly as bad, especially if you make them unload fast. The unload fast only works well at close range and sometimes only catches 1 or 2 people, so you are through 2 magazines of ammo to get 1 or 2 people, and less so with the VS or TR in the same venue.

    As much as you want to say it is cause NC has bad players, some of the weapon styles favor more 'conservative' types which would work better if TTKs were not nearly as low, and the Shotguns would make more hell than the rapid volume fire weapons, even at the lower damage per round. But given TTKs are low in general, mass volume of fire will favor even the less skilled because more chances to hit with the weapon, whereas the shotguns, while it is 'more rounds' per say, it still requires a bit more effort to concentrate the pellet spread to get the most out of it and also not to 'minuteman' your fire.
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  3. doombro

    See, you keep doing it. You cite more irrelevant stats (that are secondary evidence at best) without stating the actual problem. NC generally under-performing as a whole can indicate any number of things, however, they are far from definitive proof of anything. You can already see it in threads like these. The NC shout that they're underpowered (usually without actually pointing to why their equipment isn't functionally up to speed), the other factions shout that NC is full of noobs and CoD kids.

    What does "outperformed" even mean in the context of your post? I get killed frequently by the Mercenary and GD-7F and can guarantee you at this point that they're far from underpowered compared to the other faction equivalents.

    My only complaint with NC's arsenal is that there's too little magnets and too many shotguns; but that has little to do with general infantry weapons.
    • Up x 1
  4. pnkdth

    Which is exactly why it isn't realiable data. I tend to do better with NC/TR(if only barely). Does not mean VS is harder to use.

    The main reason NC have worse stats is, by in large, due to NC having more specialised weapons and a different playstyle. Many of NC weapons wants you ADS a lot. The faction has lots of shotguns which obviously limits the area of effectiveness, in particular MAX units which cannot move seamlessly between battles as TR/VS can. Also, overall the game favour low dmg/high ROF with high accuracy/high magazine capacity over high dmg/low ROF.

    I wouldn't go as far too call any faction is easy mode and definitely not call any faction hard mode. Many NC weapon do demand a better understanding of the game, and I really do not buy the idea VS and TR just attract better players(that's just self-congratulatory nonesense). However, let's not stumble into the pitfalls of hyberbole and start using exaggerated claims, in either way. Only makes the discussion lose its value. Indeed, it is always important to measure population(and how many people go 4th faction during alerts) when considering stats. If we just take all the stats and slam it together we're using samples from very different envoirments(servers), which will lead to a result very low reliability and validity.
    • Up x 1
  5. CrazyCanadian24

    IMO, this whole mess could, in theory, be fixed just by buffing all NC weapon damage slightly. I mean, they're supposed to be the hardest hitting per-shot of all the factions, so why not, I don't know, give them that trait? Likewise, give the TR access to the fastest-firing weapons in the game, and reduce recoil and CoF for the VS. These faction "traits" aren't represented nearly enough in-game.
  6. CDN_Wolvie

    Why do you do it? Seriously, you come to a thread that is called stats-stats-stats-and-stats and then don't try to understand the stats, discredit the stats, and provide anecdotal evidence of a below or above average incident that stats have already incorporated into calculating the average.
    • Up x 3
  7. CDN_Wolvie

    I've previously broached that theoretical fix many months ago and you know what the reaction was? "1-2 hit to kill weapons are pure evil!" Want to guess what the reaction was to the other theoretical fix of buffing the NC armor in some fashion (there a few different ways that could be done)? Look no farther than people currently griping about nanoweave, something that everyone gets.

    If the NC aren't allowed to be hard hitting (nerfed up the wazoo every time they were even within a limited engagement range) and they aren't allowed to be heavily armored (even the suggestion of higher NC hp, resistance, and counter measures has other factions losing their minds) - what are the NC actually allowed to be statistically special (like actually special taking into account how the netcode and hit detection favours play styles that take advantage of not standing still aka foot/vehicle speed, hipfire, muzzle velocity, larger mags, etc)?
  8. MilitiaMan

    You state right here that NC is the underdog as 90% of all NC weapons fall into the second category.

    I mean the vary statement of "easy mode" means "for beginners" and you also stated that NC has a special play style that the other 2 factions don't have.

    Thus I must conclude that VS and by extension TR are easy mode which would make NC the harder faction or in other words "hard mode".

    Also, personal experience isn't reliable? If that was a true statement then there would be no need for troubleshooters or debuggers.... EVER.

    As it is "personal experience" that brings bugs and other issues to the light, rarely can you go through code and find an issue. You have to watch it work which in this case is the player.

    I would say I have a fair amount of game time on each faction to back up my claims that VS > TR > NC.
  9. CrazyCanadian24

    I'm not talking about 1-2 hit kill weapons, I'm talking about 3-4 hit kill weapons, which is slightly less than the current 5 hit kill that the Reaper DMR currently has. Not a major change, but enough to compensate for that slow RoF. The NC is already bordering on having their faction trait, but they're just not quite there. And let's not forget that the TR and VS would be getting small buffs of their own to stay competitive with the NC.

    On a side note, I never said anything about buffing the NC's armour or damage resistance, but again, if we assume that the NC's faction trait of "hitting the hardest" also entails "being the toughest" (for some reason), I would only suggest giving them a small toughness buff. Nothing game-breaking.

    Hopefully that clears things up a bit.
    • Up x 1
  10. CDN_Wolvie

    Thanks for clarifying. If you think suggesting the NC take fewer shots (3-4) to kill across the entire arsenal will fly, go for it. I think in those slightly higher damage per bullet cases you will still encounter how bad the V-recoil, cone of fire, muzzle velocities, etc impacts NC scoring chances while taking capture objectives though. 1-2 shots in ADS is still shoot, allow the recoil and CoF to reset, shoot. Yes, I am totally suggesting that burst fire ADS the NC is currently expected to use as their playstyle as dictated by the optimum use of the weapon stats is effectively little different than playing a Infil Sniper in CQB, doesn't take a tactical genius to see how that can have test cases that both are well below the performance of other playstyles and manage to be just barely competitive when they are in skilled hands.

    And I know you never mentioned buffing NC's armour, I have. You say "(for some reason)", well, here is that reason, its the description of the NC a number of wikis (not sure at this time if its the same description seen when making a NC character, the wikis could be out of date):

    "The New Conglomerate's weaponry are built around hitting first, hitting hardest and taking a beating"

    And it also springs from the Vanguard shield and MAX Aegis shield being a thing. I don't suppose anyone recalls when the Reaver and Vanguard were supposed to be more heavily armored as well *sighs*

    NC shields taking more of a beating than the other factions could theoretically make our weapons slightly better because more time alive would mean more time to shoot, reload, etc.

    But maybe "and taking a beating" and other mentions of being more beefy in the armor department (usually in reference to our vehicles for some reason that probably got nerfed but I don't recall anymore) just meant we're supposed to get our ***** kicked :(
    • Up x 1
  11. Cab00se187

    So NC has high damage, low RoF with terrible accuracy and are suppose to fire in bursts which makes the low RoF even lower? Did I win Alex?
    • Up x 2
  12. Aegie

    Weapons that are carbon copies across empires provides excellent evidence that NC is not composed of worse players. Your argument has no merit.
    • Up x 5
  13. CDN_Wolvie

    Aegie, there may be further empirical evidence in the stats for which argument has merit: Taking the Average of the Assist KDR of the players of each faction and then comparing them. A lot of the current and past arguments are built solely off the KDR of things.
  14. Xae

    Using KPU as a balance metric has been debunked so many times I'm not sure why you guys keep trying.
    • Up x 1
  15. Aegie

    The evidence is pretty clear, it is convergent, it supports a very parsimonious and obvious conclusion. The only reason there is resistance to accepting the natural conclusion is due to 1) ignorance, 2) emotional bias, or 3) some combination of 1 and 2.

    If NC was composed of worse players then the best place to find evidence of this would be among the weapons that are carbon copies across factions. If NC had significantly more bad players than the other factions then this would show itself among those weapons. It does not. It is as simple as that. The people who post "L2P" arguments are either 1) ignorant, 2) emotionally biased, or 3) some combination of 1 and 2.

    About the only reason I watch the forums is for the day the developers finally get around to making the necessary changes. I can no longer stomach playing the game. Were I to play for any significant amount of time I would play for TR because I play LA almost exclusively and TR has a clear advantage in that class. Every single NC carbine is dead last compared to the other factions' counterparts- every single one. The funniest thing about this, of course, is that the moment I jump ship and join TR I am suddenly no longer a "bad" player that needs to "L2P"- simply ridiculous. It pains me to encounter such willful ignorance.

    The "game" is pathetic and the people who present nonsense arguments are not doing it any favors. Many of these discrepancies have been here for almost a year now and the rest for approximately 6 months. The developers should be ashamed and so should many of the players who would rather protect their egos than salvage this farce.
    • Up x 9
  16. CDN_Wolvie

    All I am saying is that there is potentially even more supporting evidence for your side of the argument. Any idea how I could pull the average Assist KDR of each faction?
  17. CDN_Wolvie

    Then it should be pretty easy to link us to the reasonable explanation post of why KPU is a insufficient metric, rather than just using language that is condescending.
  18. Xae

    Look at the -P version of NS weapons.
  19. Zolton34

    I have a good question. If NC is mainly an up close in your face faction as many claim. Why then do we not have a higher starting health on all our classes to help compensate for us having to be in your face? The TR has their higher ammo capacity and the VS has the no bullet drop. I'm just curious as to why i never see that the NC being close quarters combat faction should have a much larger HP to compensate? But then again i'm not 100% sure what the NC niche is any more to be perfectly honest.
    • Up x 2
  20. CDN_Wolvie

    Link? So I can look at the same information you are.