Stats stats stats and stats ! NC hardmode version 2

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by CoreCombat, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Flukeman62

    hey... don't group us all together.
    • Up x 1
  2. CaptainYamerica

    Don't try to bring logic into a discussion where people simply want to defend faction loyalties.

    Regardless of gear though, if your faction has a distinct population advantage, or a more unified organizational balance, you are obviously much more likely to win.

    Right now it seems like most NC on most servers either are mid-low pop (typically not as bad as VS) but, they also lack in organization.

    This is not a representation of less skill in NC players. It represents a lack of communication and organization. They don't always go hand-in-hand.

    But, honestly, adjusting and balancing tools of the trade even more would help get more people motivated to "fight the good fight" together on NC. At least that is my take on it. Right now on Waterson, we are a mostly disorganized mess unless it's a BioLab alert it seems.

    Heck, my outfit had one of the top ranked players for the first several months of the game, and he got so frustrated that he just up and quit out of the blue. Sure, his personal numbers were great, but that isn't the point of this game.

    You can only ram your head into a brick wall so many times before you knock yourself out.

    The game is flawed in more ways than one. It's the people that continue to defend and want to persist with the current state of the game that are one of the underlying main issues with the game. The game is not fine and people don't need to L2P. Advantages are advantages just as disadvantages are such... No matter how you look t them.
    • Up x 4
  3. Cinnamon

    Kills per user is sort of a meaningless stat to me. Kill per minute is more useful since it at least shows how long the weapon is being used. But then that does not show how it is being used. If the person is engaging at short or long range or just idling. I look at different weapons in these stats that have similar very characteristic and they have wildly different kills per user. I can't make it make sense for me.
    • Up x 1
  4. CaptHaddock

    I understand that the API data is limited and KPU is the best metric you can get, but there are *far* too many variables in that metric to conclude on weapon balance. The biggest unknown is time of use, all you can comment on now is weapon popularity (or lack thereof).

    I have recently returned to the game to spend time playing VS and NC over the past 2 weeks (VS BR1 to BR21) and now NC BR1 to about BR8, and I definitely struggle more with uncerted NC weapons, especially as HA. I cannot comment on weapon effectiveness once I get a few more certs, but 'newb' friendly weapons are going to be important to any faction balance for a F2P game.
    • Up x 1
  5. Liewec123

    its not worth your time gathering stats and evidence that clearly shows NC need a buff, you know why?
    because we've been doing it for months and SoE don't seem to give a ****.

    they know by now that something is wrong, they just don't care about Neglected Conglomerate
    • Up x 3
  6. Aegie

    Show me where this occurs.
  7. Aegie

    Unless you assume that only with certain weapons the TR/VS play much longer than NC counterparts.

    What you are assuming here is far from parsimonious and were it to be true we would see similar discrepancies among the weapons that are essentially carbon copies across the factions- we do not. NC does just fine, often slightly out performing TR, with weapons that have identical stats across factions.
    • Up x 2
  8. Posse

    These stats are not conclusive evidence of anything actually, the only way to know when a weapon is UP or OP is when we compare the average KDRs and KPMs
  9. Aegie

    Does it? Show me.

    Lets take a look at the ACX-11 and restrict ourselves to BR >= 50. So ACX-11 achieves an average between 9.26-11.46 KPU; compare this to the Jaguar that falls between 13.84-15.36. So, for BR 50-75 the ACX-11 gets about 66.90% the kills per user and for BR 75-100 it gets about 74.61%. So it ranges anywhere from 33% worse to 25% worse. The figures are fairly similar if we compare the ACX-11 to the Solstice.

    I have not yet rolled up my sleeves and really started digging but I am certain that you did not actually test this claim you are presenting. Moreover, the way you have written it above suggests that in order to be average the NC have to be above average- while I am pretty sure that is not what you intended to mean, that is more in line with what the figures are showing.
    • Up x 1
  10. Thovargh

    Total kpu aside, there's LMGs, Sniper Rifles, MAX AI and ESH.
    For some reason NC also seem to have a higher learning curve with things like Lightnings and MAX AA
    • Up x 1
  11. Aegie

    Yes, HUGE thanks to the people that put their free time into pulling this data from the API.

    I know plenty about data analysis but the method of retrieval from the API is foreign to me and would have taken considerable time to figure out.

    Now we can finally have an opportunity to have meaningful discussions about the myriad balancing issues that are clearly present in the game.

    Unfortunately, for some people, there is literally no amount of evidence that can overcome personal prejudices so obviously there are going to be lots of people who will reach for any conclusion other than the parsimonious and obvious.
    • Up x 2
  12. LohaMoha

    The Magrider has significantly higher KPU even with the AP main gun, but has no double shots like the Prowler yet still better at farming infantry?
    VS thinks the Magrider is the worst tank, but it's clearly better then the Vanguard.
    VS and TR both think the Vanguard shield is OP, but the Vanguard is clearly inferior overall even with the shield.
    • Up x 2
  13. Aegie

    Okay, so show me what you are talking about with the LMGs, sniper rifles, etc.

    Lets take a look at Lightnings- VS C75Viper = average KPU of 3.77; NC = 3.72; TR = 3.63. Not much difference there and from eyeballing this (I have not yet sat down to do rigorous analysis) it appears these differences are well within the within-weapon variances among the factions.

    Pythons have a bit bigger discrepancy with VS = 6.17; NC = 5.33; TR = 4.95. Interesting that this difference may be larger than within-weapon variance among the factions but notice how NC>TR in both of these cases when the weapon stats are identical?

    Skyguard; VS = 3.33; NC = 3.4; TR = 3.14; Once again, these are probably about the size of the within-weapon variances and once again we see NC>TR with a weapon identical across factions.

    See where I am going with this?
  14. Flaimbot

    now that's an interesting statement.
    it implies 2 different directions:
    either the empire specific counters to them are superior,
    or they have a harder time performing on the same level because of less support through the lower population.

    seeing that all lightnings and aa maxes are the same and the other 2 factions still are able to pull higher numbers, wanna guess what the more likely answer is?

    edit: didn't check the actual numbers. just guessed from what he implied
  15. CDN_Wolvie

    If you think about it, that is probably because higher learning curve in other categories have an impact on the combined arms combat, a weak counter to enemy AV and Infantry would leave such things like Lightnings and MAX AA more exposed to suppressive fire that would divert their attention from shooting at the enemy to getting cover and repairs. Conversely, if a faction were to have a strong category, like the Striker AV/AA for the TR, it would lift up any other of the combined arms categories in the area of operations as well.

    That's something I am wondering about KPU, how does Assist KDR affect it? I see that stat recorded on my former Engineer stat sheet, its much higher than my KDR ... my best guess is that is a stat that reflects I may not get the kill but because I engage in teamwork, someone else gets the kill. You may have a stat there that can prove or disprove the theory about who uses teamwork and who does not to achieve the necessary dominating force on a capture objective. Seriously, lets look at the Assist KDR stat for the three factions, we may be able to empirically show who uses teamwork more on average.
  16. Aegie

    No, actually there is plenty of data to show that this assumption is false. Lets look at weapons that are carbon copies, stat wise, across the factions.

    Shotguns (with the exception that VS has no drop and pays for this with 25m/s less velocity):

    Stat wise: Nighthawk=Piston=Pandora

    Nighthawk = 9.91; Piston = 10.91; Pandora = 11.41; Now, these differences are likely to be very similar to the within-weapon variances over time and we also see that NC > TR.

    Stat wise: Barrage=Mauler=Thanatos

    Barrage = 9.66; Mauler = 10.16; Thanatos = 10.32; Again, differences are likely to be very similar to within-weapon variances and again we see NC > TR.

    Stat wise: Haymaker=Sweeper=Nova

    Haymaker = 9.93; Sweeper = 10.29; Nova = 9.67; Again, differences are likely to be very similar to within-weapon variances and now we see NC > TR > VS.

    I could go on but you should be getting the picture.

    Lets look at Sniper rifles.

    Stat wise: M77B=Bolt=XM98

    M77B = 8.45; Bolt = 6.22; XM98 = 7.54; To be sure, the NC is lagging here but in all probability this is related to the fact that the Bolt is the starter weapon so a lot of the overall average KPU is coming from people very new to the game or infiltrator. Lets test this hypothesis by looking at the KPU from the BR > 25. Now, M77B = 8.22; Bolt = 7.32; XM98 = 7.51; TR still lead but notice how these values are much closer to one another and likely to be very similar to the within-weapon variances? A better example would be to look at sniper rifles that must be certed into (similar with all the shotguns above).

    Stat wise: RAMS=Longshot=Parallax

    RAMS = 11.78; Longshot = 11.72; Parallax = 11.66; Once again, these values are very close and probably very similar to within-weapon variances, here TR ~ NC > VS.

    What about some scout rifles? I think VS have no bullet drop on these.


    SOAS = 10.51; Stalker = 9.71; Artemis = 11.21; So yeah, it does look like VS may have a bit of a lead here over NC but TR does not lead NC by very much, probably very similar to within weapon variances. Lets take a look the other scout rifles.


    HSR = 7.51; Shadow = 7.93; Nyx = 9.22; Again we see VS with what may be considered a bit of an advantage because this difference looks somewhat large relative to eyeballing the within-weapon variances (as I mentioned elsewhere I have yet to do rigorous analysis)- that the VS have a stable lead of ~2 I would venture to guess that this means VS Scout rifles do not have bullet drop. Why? Because unlike the with the shotguns where VS trade no drop for a small reduction in velocity they do not have any lower velocity for the scout rifles so if they do not have drop then we can consider this a flat out advantage. Still, notice here that NC ~ TR but are somewhat above?

    Okay, so lets take a look at some of the vehicle weapons that are identical across factions.



    TR = 3.63; NC = 3.72; VS = 3.78; Very similar and probably similar to the within-weapon variances with VS>NC>TR (but just barely).

    Python AP:

    TR = 4.95; NC = 5.33; VS = 6.17; Still, fairly similar VS>NC>TR.


    TR = 3.14; NC = 3.4; VS = 3.33; Very similar NC>VS>TR.

    Now, just for contrast, lets look at Carbines.

    Jaguar = 14.06; ACX-11 = 9.10; Serpent = 12.67; Notice the difference? The ACX-11 gets about 65% the kills per user as the Jaguar and 72% the kills per user as the Serpent.
    • Up x 3
  17. LohaMoha

    The Lightning stats differences are caused by the main battle tanks and weapons like the Striker.
    TR only pulls Lightnings if they can't pull Prowlers, because the Prowler is superior to the Lightning except the Skyguard, but they have the Striker for that.
    • Up x 1
  18. Aegie

    Why? This is not KDR, this is the total number of kills for the user of that particular weapon and an equally valid counter argument could be (and has been) posed- i.e. that the over populated faction has fewer targets to shoot at and thus fewer opportunities for kills.

    Moreover, since this is Kills/Users then it is adjusted for population differences in a fairly meaningful way. Moreover, we would expect, if this is a good indication of weapon performance, that weapons with identical characteristics would tend to perform very similar across the factions (i.e. the variance across factions would similar to the variance within-weapon within factions) and this is what we see. Ergo, this observation lends supporting evidence for the claim that these figures, while perhaps not perfect (there really is no such thing as "perfect" data with this kind of a system), do tend to represent the effect of the weapon stats (and not factions or users) on weapon performance.
    • Up x 2
  19. Aegie

    The overall aggregates may be a little off but they are not particularly meaningful in the first place as they are pulling from across a wide variety of weapon types. The base figures within weapon categories are straight from the API and the sums and averages that appear there have been double checked (I just did so myself).
  20. Aegie

    Hilarious- just because one of the aggregate figures may be incorrect does not invalidate the base dataset- the basic data for each day is what was pulled directly from the API. So someone may have made a mistake generating an aggregate across these different categories, so what? You can double check the within category sums and averages if you care to (I did) and create your own aggregate to double check and revise.

    The position you are taking here says a lot more about your personal prejudice and what you want the data to show than it does about what the data actually shows.
    • Up x 3