Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by CoreCombat, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Unclematos7

    You forgot "Every Vanu is Sun Tzu"
  2. TeknoBug

    As usual TR relies very heavily on Prowler and Mossie, I see it all the time on all the servers I play. The Harasser's Marauder is extremely annoying on the receiving end, it's like the old Fury but worse, even with flak 5 that thing will take you out quickly.
  3. ThreePi

    The point of sample size is to mitigate the effects of variables. This information is polling probably close to 100% of the population, it is extremely unlikely that player skill can account for the huge disparity
  4. Bhudda V1

    if people are not happy with the stat's displayed and consistently complain that the stat's have holes in them then why do they not find more relevant stat's to add as much fact as possible so everyone has effectively all the info they can get so we can have a proper discussion without people coming in and uselessly whining that their stat's are incomplete and just saying all nc = bad it's childish and make's you look like an idiot not even mentioning it's disruptive to any conversation.
    • Up x 5
  5. CoreCombat

    Also the data was pulled within a 5 day stretch .This is data across ALL servers . Not one or two or three but across all servers in PS2 . Granted not everyone plays EVERYDAY , but I am sure that over a 5 day period you will get at least a sizeable % of the player base that is playing at that time . In fact I would be surprised if the API data pull , selected less then 50% of the active total population for planetside 2 .

    Also take note of this :

    Total kills across all empires :


    Why are there less kills by the NC by a LARGE amount compared to the other 2 empires ? I don't know about you but if I saw my paycheck fall 9-11% , I would be up arms . Or what if suddenly your rent went up 9-11% ? Unless your Mr moneybags your going to be pissed about it .

    Notice how when comparing the kill totals between the VS and the TR , there is less then a 2% margin difference . Which means that relatively those empires are balanced against each other. Now against the NC.

    NC vs VS = 9% VS favor

    NC vs TR = 11% TR favor .

    That's a huge difference. Either skill plays THAT large a role ( doubtful given that this is a F2P game and not a subbed game ) unless magically all the experienced FPS players just happened to end up on the TR/ VS

    Now for some statistical analysis .
    Total amount of kills :

    VS = 1.537.990
    TR = 1,556,638
    NC = 1,418,202

    There is a HUGE disparity between the NC versus other relative empires .This can be proven by statistical analysis ( ala stat class 101 in any college or high school )

    To show why there's a huge disparity ? lets see the differences in standard deviation between the total NC kills versus other empires.

    To get standard deviation (basic) refer to ( source : ) .Math proof here :

    First get the average ( this is for kills) :

    1,537,990 ( VS) + 1,556,638 ( TR) + 1,418,202 (NC)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------- = 1,504,276 (rounded DOWN since there is no such thing as .6 kill)
    3 empires

    Now to get the standard deviation : '

    1.537,990 (VS) - 1,504,276 (average) = 33714 ^2 = 1136633796
    1,556,638 ( TR) - 1,504,276 ( average) = 52362 ^2 = 2741779044
    1,418,202 (NC) - 1,504,276 (average) = -86074 ^2 = 7408733476

    Take all those final values add them up then divide by 3 empires then take the square root of that value.

    Square root of ( (1136633796 + 2741779044 + 7408733476)/ 3 ) = 61,338 ( rounded down again ) .
    So one standard deviation for the total amount of kills is 61,338 from the average.

    1,565,614 ( One standard deviation , high end )

    1,556,638 ( TR)

    1,537,990 (VS)

    1.504.276 ( AVERAGE)

    1.442.938 ( One standard deviation , low end)

    1,418,202 ( NC )

    1,381,600 ( two standard deviations low end )

    As one can tell here, the TR and VS are relatively balanced against each other. Within ONE standard deviation from the average. With a kill count differential between the TR and the VS at ONLY 18,648 while the the TR versus NC = 138,436 ( in TR favor ) and the VS versus the NC = 119,788 ( in VS favor ) . So across 9 servers the TR and VS are scoring roughly (( TR+ VS / 2 empires) / 9 servers) = 14,345 kills on AVERAGE MORE in their favor for that ( over a 5 day period PER SERVER) , or 2,869 on AVERAGE MORE kills PER SERVER for each day in GENERAL when compared to the NC.

    Because of this, your going to have a lower retention rate amongst NC players

    Proof #2 : Average BR rank .


    Now average BATTLE RANK has an impact as all average BR levels are within 2 standard deviation(s) proof here:

    40.7833 (VS) + 38.833 ( NC ) + 39.636 ( TR)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------- === 39.75 ( average)
    3 empires

    now to get the standard deviation

    40.7833 (VS)- 39.75 ( average) = 1.0333^ 2 = 1.0677

    38.833 (NC) - 39.75 ( average) = -.917^2 = 0.8408

    39.636 (TR) - 39.75 ( average) = - .114^2 = .01299

    Take all those final values add them up then divide by 3 empires then take the square root of that value.

    square root ( (1.0677 + 0.8408 + .01299)/3 ) = Standard deviation of .8 level(s) per

    So that means one standard deviation from the average ( low end ) : 39.74 - .8 = 38.94 level and the ( high end ) : 39.74 + .8= 40.54
    40.7833 VS average battle rank

    40.54 first standard deviation battle rank ( high end )

    39.74 ( average battle rank )

    39.636 TR average battle rank

    38.94 first standard deviation battle rank ( low end )

    38.833 NC average battle rank

    From that we can tell that there is a " disparity " between battle ranks if someone wants to bring up that somehow the NC are not retraining players as well as the TR/ VS do. Granted a standard deviation of less then 2 is NOT a huge disparity from the mean/ average. But there is a disparity never the less.

    I will NOT do the KPU stats , as they will be even MORE skewed AGAINST the NC. No point in pointing out the obvious .


    Because of all of those factors this also affects " high end" game play significantly :

    Leader boards ( non-competition level )

    Only 3 NC players are represented here :

    ( data pull on 9/13/2013)

    Nor have the NC at the highest levels of competition fielded a single team that placed in the money ( outside of DVS switching factions ) : Either TIW's full of scrubs and newbies and 666's not an experienced PS1 outfit . Or there's other factors in play.

    The most recent competition between large/ high ranked US OUTFITS for SOE :
    Source :

    All the teams and their scores:
    4013 Future Crew -- VS
    2961 DasAnfall, No Nonsense Gamers and The Great White Whales -- VS
    2544 DVS Gaming -- NC outfit that went VS
    2352 Blaze of Glory -- VS
    2278 NUC -- TR
    2240 TRG Team 1 -- TR
    2175 TIW -- NC
    1972 The Forty Deuce and Reachcast -- VS
    1930 666th Hammered 3-4 -- NC
    1608 SwagSwag -- NC
    1448 Recursion -- NC
    1387 Team Awesome --TR
    1349 ZRT and H4TZ -- NC
    1151 Azure Twilight and Vindicators -- VS
    1103 TRG Team 2 -- TR
    1018 666th Dog Pound -- NC

    There is not a single NC outfit in the top 5 in fact the *highest* ranked NC outfit placed 7th ....Unless you count DVS switching to VS .

    TLDR : Data is data, but it points to something that one can SEE :

    1) The NC are in general under-performing on ALL levels of play, casual / try-hard/ competitive levels.
    2) If skill were a factor then the NC would be be DEAD LAST in every NS weapon category , as shown in the data sets from the original post , this is clearly NOT THE CASE.
    • Up x 6
  6. Hibiki54

    Just give the pellets for the C85 splash damage equivalent to the Fury and a higher velocity. Problem solved.
  7. GoogleIntern2013

    And then balance TR:
    nerf marauder, fracture, vulcan, and every other OP TR weapon
    • Up x 1
  8. Chewy102

    I have been a part of many debates on this subject and have learned two things. "Everything is fine until proven ******" and "Proof is ignored in favor for "nope" comments".

    I have been saying things like this for months now. Mostly stayed around MAXes but it is getting clearer every day that NC as a faction is going to die long before any other. To make things worse, Iv been told that most of the DEVs don't even know these things like TTK/DPS numbers and what not. Ask DVS Delrith and he can tell you personally about how ****** NC is on weapons, vehicles, and just as a faction from not just his point of view but talking to the devs in person.
  9. CoreCombat

    To be honest, I only did this because I was running some #'s for Eve( with the recent power shifts in that game ) , figured I'd do this on the side. Frankly I'd probably do a TTK / DPS chart for weapons sometime but for now, this should be enough . Especially since this game is almost 1 year old now the data / analysis should show a picture of the current game status.

    Anyhow, proof is proof. Countering it with " gut feelings " , " anecdotal evidence " or " conjecture" or " montages" is quite often shown around here as evidence. Its like watching enough Fox news these days. Mind numbing really .

    If such analysis were the truth then good luck trying to play a game like Eve lol . If people complain that this is complicated I can't imagine how Eve is to them. Even PS1 was more complex ( due to the inventory system + no ammo pack refills / harder for logistics in that game.), in PS1 ( back when it was only capped at br20) your trading off opportunity cost versus how long you can last in a battle versus what situation you can deal with . Anyhow, was a decent exercise for my mind at least heh.
  10. Fredfred

    I disagree, because TR have more and persistent whiners than NC.
  11. Chewy102

    Well that's what Iv done with MAXes. Used uncerted dual weapons for all of the AI versions against stock VR MAXes at 4 ranges each (NC 0m, 10m, 15m, 20m. TR/VS 0m, 10m, 20m, 30m). NC only has one uncerted weapon that has the lowest TTK, and that's dual Grinders at 0m. Everything else NC is dead last in TTK. Add in extended mags and Scattercannons , Mattocks, and Grinders win in TTK up to 10m but Hacksaws are still limited to 0m. Look at the first link in that post where I did NC MAX weapons and if you see the shells to kill above 20 (24 for Grinder) then it needs a reload and that should push any TTK past TR or VS counterparts.

    But with only NC MAXes being forced to cert extended mags that leaves a full 1,000 certs for TR and VS MAXes to put in armor or abilities. If they cert into kinetic then NC is just ****** in MAXes. For NC inches matter. For TR and VS meters matter.

    if you get into getting TTKs and DPS numbers, don't half *** it and stick to paper numbers. Use range, COF, spread, and target size if you can. It is a lot harder but you need to account for that or you will be assuming far to much for it to be useful in a FPS.
    • Up x 4
  12. CoreCombat

    The problem with the NC max is that , they should have never gotten shotguns in the first place. As iconic as they were in PS1, they were balanced through different choke modes . It would have been better for a force multiplier on the ground to have a weapon that is similar to what the TR/VS are using for balance purposes.

    The TTK / DPS #'s with range factored in along with factors for weapons; might do that someday, but not now.
  13. axiom537

    Well, DVS's decision to go Vanu, was based on the rules & restriction placed on the competitors. As I also stated, that had vehicle kills been allowed in the tournament, then the general consensus was that DVS would have gone TR, and we would have focused on using Harassers w/ marauders.( go look at the stats provided in this post the Marauder has like 18000 kills while the NC C85 which is the NC AI weapon on the harasser has 164)

    This really doesn't have alot to do with 4th factioning, because day to day game play is not the same as a competitive tournament, which is time limited and has additional restrictions. In a game like PS which has alot asymmetric balancing, certain classes and vehicles are going to be much more desirable in a tournament setting, where the contestants have a limited time to do XYZ in order to win and they are going to pick the best weapon or vehicle to accomplish that goal, which is what we did.

    But.... at the same time I think our decision to do what we did is another example, much like the purpose of this post is to highlight, that there are some glaring imbalances and those imbalances at the end of the day are having a negative effect on overall game play and it's just enough that it is causing players to switch factions or get frustrated and leave the game.
  14. Kyouki

    Its logical because your reply didn't make sense, please explain the context of your post in relation to mine.
  15. Kyouki

    That is simple. The former terrorists realized how unprofessional and inferior their forces were to TR so they underwent some training and put on the red uniform of justice.
  16. Phyr

    Anyone else notice how poorly the Annihilator is performing? Should give that thing a buff.
  17. Spookydodger

    A problem I often have with stats is that they are usually presented in a vacuum. At least this data is broken down by just that which comes after a major game update, but let's look at a few things for an example of how the data is not always presented with relevant context:

    All HE weapons for MBTs get more kills than the other MBT main weapons. One would presume then that HE is the best weapon to have on a MBT. However that doesn't take into account typical MBT vs Armor doesn't often result directly in the death of the losing pilot. Many Armor pilots abandon their vehicles before they die, and then are often killed by someone other than the MBT main gun unless it was HE or HEAT. Thus many AP weapons don't get the kills of armor they destroy because the losing pilot abandons the vehicle and then dies (without vehicle) to some other weapon.

    Now most smart people know that AP weapons are best at versus Armor combat and would realize that HE / HEAT is best at farming Infantry.

    Take also the A2A launchers on the ESFs. To the best of my knowledge, like the different flavors of sniper rifles, they are basically the same from one faction to the other. So why do Scythes get more A2A kills than TR or NC? One could theorize that because there are SO many mosquitos, there are so many more targets for the Scythe A2A launchers to fire at. Why are their potentially more mosquitos? Because there are more TR striker users to shoot down aircraft.

    Why are there potentially fewer NC Liberator kills when the vehicle is EXACTLY the same between factions? Could be that fewer good pilots populate the NC, or it could be the higher damage from Lockdown TR MAXes and ZOE VS MAXes makes fewer enemy fighters in battles where Liberators could make a difference, and so NC Liberators have to contend with more G2A (not so effective versus Liberators unless in the form of lockons) but also have to deal with more VS and TR ESF pilots.

    Bear in mind, too, something that tends to work against Vanguard pilots: speed and agility allow for more forgiving play in terms of dealing with mistakes arising from lack of experience. In the same way as a Jetski requires much less skill to pilot than, say, a Supertanker because the Jetski requires very little in the way of forward thinking. Vanguards require pilots that can plan further ahead to utilize their greater armor and firepower since they can't just turn on a dime and move fast like a Prowler, or move in any direction like a Magrider. They have slow tanks that require linear movement, and that means thinking ahead.

    All of these are theories, of course.

    What I'm trying to get at is that these stats aren't useless, but they are just a start. Further questions need to be asked based off this data before conclusions can be reached.

    Like how many of the different Battle Rank users are using these weapons? How many vehicles are destroyed (with or without pilot) versus killing infantry that were never mounted. How many vehicles are pulled of the individual types? How many people carry a Striker, for example, compared to the percentage of teammates in their area in a given encounter?

    Certainly NC need some tweaking, just as any of the factions do. The Enforcer Modified is fairly straight-forward proof of that. However if we don't ask the right questions, we're in danger of fixing things the wrong way and just changing the nature of the problem we were trying to solve.
    • Up x 1
  18. Spookydodger

    One could argue that the Annihilator, being the cheapest "cross-faction" multi-purpose lockon, trades flexibility and cheapness (you get it on every character if you pay SC for it once) for damage output. With its longer lock-on time and the prolific nature of Stealth on current aircraft, coupled with lower damage, it only makes sense that it would have lower kill numbers.

    The Annihilator might be one of the few well-balanced Lockon launchers for all we know.
  19. Spookydodger

    I was using my FPC today. I think they adjusted the droprate and speed to be inline with the others. I was having MUCH more success with it versus fast or far targets compared to normal.
  20. Phyr

    No. Buff it.