Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by CoreCombat, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Zotamedu

    There's a lot of problems with that analysis. First of all, you are being rather dishonest when you only use KPU as an absolute truth when it suits you. If we look at the ESRL, the Phoenix is obviously better.

    Then there's a lot of speculating going on. If we check the ESF numbers, the thing that stands out is the rocket pods for TR. The rest of the weapons are pretty equal. There is no obvious connection between those numbers and the Striker. It's a possibility but you cannot really say anything about it based on those numbers. What we need is numbers on average time played as well. If TR has much more air time than the other two, then that supports the hypothesis of the Striker being the culprit.

    The Harasser armament was not at all thought through. The Harassers needs to be modified. I think the main problem with the TR weapons is the synergy effect. They work too well with all that is currently wrong with the Harasser. They really need to fix the bug where they can be repaired on the move. Then they need to weaken them a little bit since they can take too much damage for their speed. They are too much of a tank rather than a buggy. After those adjustments, and some kind of buff for the useless Enforcer Modified, the Harasser weapons can be reevaluated.

    Then we have the problem of different roles. The TR MBT will have a higher KPU simply because of the two barrels which makes it better at killing infantry. The Vanguard is however a much better anti tank platform with the high velocity AP round and the shield. That extra health and a good top gunner means Prowlers are toast. But killing a 2/2 Prowler will only yield at best two kills which a properly placed HE Prowler can get in a couple of seconds.

    BTW, where is the MAX spread sheet?

    So you are reading way too much into a single statistic, KPU, without considering the actual game mechanics. It seems like the good old statistics mantra needs to be repeated once again. Correlation is not the same as causality. You need to have a mechanic or all correlations are completely and utterly useless.
    • Up x 1
  2. Chowley

    Youre doing the exact same thing you accuse the NC of. Making a broad sweeping statement with no basis in reality. Yes ok we get TR are the master race of PS2 and all NC are noobs, naturally terrible fps players and tactically inept people gravitate strongly towards NC, i get it. Fine.

    How did i imply the crow was a noob weapon? If you want to quote dumb fire stats, use the dumb fire missiles, far less room for fudging reality.

    You ignore your own contradictions, so theres no point in talking about this. TR master race rejoice.
    • Up x 2

    we've always known that NC was hardmode engaged. but it's not like the facts or statistics will change TR/VS minds.
  4. Axehilt

    Raw kill count is worthless to look at.

    If you want to call out imbalance, you point at C85's 2.78 KPU vs. Marauder's 12.66 KPU. Still a dramatic imbalance, but now we're discussing meaningful stats.
  5. Delnar_Ersike

    All stats are valid... except for one: average battle rank. Due to the wide range of player battle ranks, data for the median player battle rank would be of huge help. That, plus average and median player accuracy for each empire, would give much greater insight into how much the performance stats are due to bad numbers versus simple lack of skill on the player's side. For example, if you look at your ESF chart (ESFs are probably the most balanced among the factions IMO), you'll see that the KPU for higher BR players generally evens out, giving further proof that lower stats aren't necessarily due to worse numbers.

    Keep in mind that the stats were recorded when the Striker was still broken, so it's expected that overall vehicle and aircraft KPU for TR is much higher not because TR drivers/pilots are more skilled, but because NC/VS drivers/pilots can't get as many kills due to constant Striker harass.

    Oh yeah, and you're also missing common pool infantry weapon stats; those would be really interesting to see, too.
  6. sauna

    **** stats.
  7. Kyouki

    Playing as NC is easy. If you are getting outclassed in every category by TR that just means we are better than you. We are the professional military while you are a rag tag team of greedy rednecks.
  8. hansgrosse

    There are two main arguments here in this thread.

    1) NC faction equipment is underperforming and this is the reason for perceived differences in combat effectiveness.

    2) NC faction playerbase is inherently less skilled/organized than the others and this is the reason for perceived differences in combat effectiveness.

    In any situation where you end up with multiple explanations or interpretations of an event or dataset, the truth is generally somewhere in the middle. The statistics displayed here show that most of the NC-specific weaponry is not performing at the level of the other empires' weaponry. This is probably due to a combination of both of the above reasons.

    Therefore, the questions asked should be:

    1) If NC weapons are truly underperforming, then to what extent does this underperforming weaponry affect the skill level of the NC playerbase by driving good players away or to other factions?

    2) If the NC playerbase truly is less skilled or organized, then to what extent does this affect the performance of their weaponry?

    3) Are we seeing a sort of synergistic relationship/feedback loop between these two issues that's keeping the faction as a whole where it's at? And of so...

    4) How do we fix it?
    • Up x 6
  9. Fredfred

    I think this thread has more to do with the fact that no matter how good the NC players are, an equally skilled TR or VS will beat them because NCs weaponry is inferior.
  10. Kyouki

    Considering equal skill they all have a equal chance to kill because they have the same weapons. The NC/VS have access to weapons that shoot just as fast as TR weapons and in case of carbines even faster. Considering equal skill the TR only has an advantage if both players empty their entire clip. At this point if the TR player fails to kill with the last 10 bullets he loses and vanu/nc wins. This is fairly "balanced" in terms of cqc where TR are supposed to shine. Instead due to maxes and fast firing weapons for vanu/nc we hold the 10 more bullets advantage. When it comes to medium range TR weaponry begins to suffer while the NC/VS weapons are better off. The TR has no strong area of play while the NC are a strong competitor out to long range. This is a TR opinion on the matter, take what you will from it.
  11. Kyouki

    I have no idea what are are trying to say or reply to by quoting me.
  12. Delnar_Ersike

    Let me repeat that these stats were pulled before the Striker was fixed, so NC/VS vehicle numbers are much lower than they would be now; the ESF, Liberator, and Lightning stats are the biggest proof.
  13. Stew360

    Nope its simply a great reflexion of whats is happening in many servers when a single or 2 empire dominate the ground and air , it allow Liberator to fly free and farms kills

    if not liberator are dying like flys on any empire , to fly a libs freely you need to controle mainly Air and ground in the area your flying at or the Servers populations as to be low enough to be able to fly in some ( dead zone ) area and flank the few populated area ;)

    Liberator late at nigths are king
  14. DailyFrankPeter

    Yeah, I like how a lot of you professional TR players are ex-NC.
    Anyway, if there's any piece of advice I take from the data sheets (as NC) it is to stick with common pool weapons. At least they're free from the devs' understanding of 'faction traits'.

    Notwithstanding the argument that stats should not be published as any complaints would be out of context/big picture, I strongly believe someone should keep this sort of data recording and watching the hands of people doing the balancing!
  15. Delnar_Ersike

    You misunderstand. I said the Striker was fixed, not balanced. It no longer did things it wasn't supposed to do (ignore terrain, occasionally hit through flares). The "balanced" part is, AFAIK, coming in the form of a global lock-on nerf, where, among other things, you have to keep your reticule aimed at the target while the rocket is in flight.

    In any case, my point is still valid: the Striker contributed a lot to TR's apparent vehicle dominance. With it fixed (and later balanced), all previous vehicle stats comparing TR to non-TR are null and void.
  16. ViXeN

    There is no hardmore or easymode, just different factions with different advantages and disadvantages. And of course people making excuses. :rolleyes:
    • Up x 2
  17. Zotamedu

    You forgot the third option. That a lot of mistakes have been done when trying to interpret data. There is a rather neat list of falacies going on which starts with cherry picking and post hoc ergo propter hoc.
  18. Liewec123

    TR don't like stats, because stats make far too much sense.
    vulcans, marauders, anchored AP/HE prowlers, Strikers.
    so many things that are leagues ahead of NC counterparts,
    i don't see the gap as huge with NC-VS but comparing NC and TR is as the OP suggested like activating hardmode.
    • Up x 2
  19. hansgrosse

    Logical fallacies are this forum's bread and butter, unfortunately. Most folks don't even realize they're committing them. Not that they'd care if they did.

    The evidence presented here foregoes many other variables that play a role in faction performance, and I'm not going to try to make sense of it. That's not my goal. I'm dealing more with the implication that if player skill or weapon effectiveness are to blame for the disparity in the stats then it must be one or the other, and cannot be both. I don't believe that this is correct. If player skill and weapon effectiveness are the possible causes, then it's far more likely that both play a role, at which point we can gain a deeper understanding of the issue by determining if one or both have any sort of influence on the other.
    • Up x 1
  20. Aegie

    So we would expect teams not to gravitate towards a specific faction during competitions and instead stick with the faction they play for fun right?
    • Up x 1