Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by CoreCombat, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Aegie

    Yeah, I try to play more of a sharpshooter role and while I do not avoid rushing I do almost always seek to find better positioning and engage at mid-long range.

    Yet, say with the ACX-11, if you are shooting at a moving target even at mid range it can be difficult to land enough hits to take someone down without reloading- especially if it is a heavy with NW5+Resist. I am deadly accurate with some weapons, like the NS-11, but with that you have to put so many rounds into the person it can feel silly sometimes. Let alone that if there is virtually anyone else around then shooting at midrange targets is a lot like saying "here I am, shoot me please" and a couple of enemies just hose the area and you're done.

    I prefer few, accurate shots- I would love more competitive semi-auto options. In fact, lately as LA I find I spend a lot of time with the Commissioner because I find it a lot more fun to use in CQC than SMGs- fun but not necessarily always effective.

    I think part of the bigger issue here is really that there is no one place or one thing that you can point to and say "look, that is egregious" but rather it is the convergence of a great many small discrepancies (like inherent advantages of high ROF) that have not been given enough attention and end up coalescing into a situation where there is imbalance.
  2. Locke

    The key point in my mind regarding infantry weapons is that in general NC weapons are strongest at medium-long range using static ADS and this isn't generally how the game is played.

    I should put a disclaimer in here saying that NC do have quite a few statistically or functionally identical weapons to VS/TR but when looking at large weapon groupings such as assault rifles, LMGs and carbines I believe this maxim plays out.
  3. CoreCombat

    That's part of it but not the entire thesis. Though I should have stated that weapons with a higher DPS (but not the highest DPS necessarily across all ranges ) potential across MULTIPLE RANGES AND UNITS will yield greater results if the user becomes experienced with such weapon . How versatile a weapon is, a major factor for vehicles since you cannot swap out weapons on the go. Planetside 2's load out scheme is far more restrictive in allowing players to adjust " on the go" versus say arena shooters ( assuming said weapon was already picked up by player) or even PS1's load out schemes . Even infantry will have to pull back to their terminals ( be it base or sundy or redeploy even ) to switch out their gear to adjust for a change on the battlefield. So that is trading (opportunity cost ) a good position ( infantry wise ) versus having the correct load out to deal with such a situation , but losing that good position .

    Example ( vehicle at the moment ):

    You pull a lightning HEAT , because there's a massive foot zerg coming from the octagon to bridge ward. After 10 minutes of combat, suddenly the footzerg changes into an Air Zerg that's pulled by an organized outfit.

    Your more or less screwed in this situation because you cannot change weapon load outs to ADJUST to the condition. No matter how well you perform in that lightning with a HEAT cannon, you will do significantly worse against that Air Zerg versus say a skyguard. Vice versa , say a skyguard was pulled to deal with the air zerg, but then 10 minutes later that air zerg is an armor zerg...... This is just a basic example ( does not illustrate versatility across all ranges but rather the weapon's versatility across multiple units . Weapons that can deal with multiple different unit types effectively > Weapons that are godlike against one unit ) .
  4. Aegie

    I know there are other stats but...

    is it really that surprising that the faction that tends to have the highest ROF, greatest DPS, and largest mag capacity might be better than the faction that tends to have the lowest ROF, lowest DPS, and smallest mag capacity? Would you guess that the faction that tends to be in the middle on these values also tends to be in the middle?

    Do we really think these relationships are coincidence?
    • Up x 3
  5. NoctD

    To an extent - but what stats don't show directly is what we've all observed in game. Just because some people play more doesn't make them good players, I've seen many a high BRs do really silly things in game too.

    You have to conclude that the likelihood is strong that NC as a faction likely has under average players as a whole, or a lack of organization, or both. Its a good thing that various people seem to be realizing this now (the recent discussion amongst Connery NC players, the leadership conference being organized for Waterson NC).

    But its not healthy going around thinking your faction is the weakest. People should be asking how they can use what they have to their advantage, bettering their in game performance, and not throwing a huge faction pity party. Its all downhill once people start adopting such an attitude, you just stop believing/trying and make excuses for everything.

    Organization and the quality of your faction's playerbase as a whole is far more important for success than the differences in equipment between factions. Look at VS - they cry about their Mags and Glancers, yet overall I'd say as a faction on various servers, they've shown tons of organization, good strategy and overall cohesiveness that has led to them winning alerts and so on.

    Ultimately - game balance will shift continually with the constant flavor of the month type updates SOE provides, but what prevails is a quality playerbase and proper organization.
  6. Chowley

    I think I just completely misread this post.
    Although I still think the post is a mess :p so I will refrain from commenting. (deleted my initial reply)
  7. Aegie


    Why do we have to conclude that this likelihood is any stronger than the likelihood that NC has to be more organized and better players just to keep up with other factions? Maybe NC are calling for more organization because without better organization than other factions NC is likely to lose.

    Conjecture, conjecture.

    TR have been outperforming the other factions on various metrics since release. True, there was a time when the Magrider outperformed the other MBTs (fixed) and of course, followed by the rise of the Prowler. True, there was a time when the NC MAX outperformed the other MAXs (fixed) but none of these differences off set the overall edge that TR has had in just about every other area in terms of performance metrics like score per minute.

    Now, I'm not saying that these metrics are definitive proof that TR is hardcoded as a better faction but it is supporting evidence of the hypothesis that TR, as a faction, has an advantage.

    I agree it is not healthy to go around thinking your faction is the weakest but I would also agree that it is not healthy to ignore balance issues when your faction is weakest because that will ultimately be likely to lead to frustration.

    If organization and a quality playerbase as a whole is far more important for success than the differences in equipment between factions then you should have exactly 0 qualms with SOE looking into whether NC needs some help with these differences.
  8. NoctD

    Not at all - the balance differences between factions is really mostly insignificant. What causes people to think there's a bigger balance issue is one of perception and approach. The NC have doomed themselves into believing they're the worse faction, stopped asking the simple fundamental question of how do I get better, and its becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

    The game isn't that hard really - and the differences between the factions these days is nothing much to bother about. But if your playerbase is bad and disorganized, then your faction (and you) will get nowhere.

    And you talk about the Crow like its a noob's weapon. This is yet again showing the incompetence on your faction's comprehension... lock-ons need teamwork (focus firing) to be successful, and what's more, the Crow works as a dumbfire too. The guy with the Hades/Nemesis though seems to know this and uses it to their advantage. Plus VS are far more likely to double/triple team on lock-ons.

    SOE can buff NC like crazy, but your faction's overall performance isn't going to increase much without a better and more organized playerbase. And the stats here show us a faction's failures to organize, not a balance issue really.

    TR are quite bad too in some aspects - like you said about Vulcan gunners who can't burst (heck, you'd be lucky if they're actually shooting at a target they can even see).
  9. Phazaar

    If this can't be made the forum banner for a day, I quit.
  10. Van Dax

    KPU for infantry weapons is essentially useless, really all it does is look at what weapons are used the most. It highly favours the versatile weapons and makes the specialized guns look worse.
    i.e. say I'm using the sva which is incredibly versatile I won't switch guns my entire stint of playtime, however if I'm using the ursa I'm likely to swap it out for a shotgun when I need to. The result is the sva would score higher than both the shotgun and the ursa.
    because this chart isn't weighed against play time its rather pointless.

    vehicle weapons will show some interesting numbers but ultimately isn't enough info, if one factions tank lives for a really long time on average so as to always be off cooldown it would show up the same as the tank that's used by a casual who got a ****ton of kills and then died quickly. For the case of NS vehicles it shows the impact of the enemy's av capabilities, the striker can be surmised to be the root of some of these irregularities but we have no way of telling how much it effects ES vehicles as we have no baseline.
    • Up x 1
  11. NoctD

    Ok - I'll stop. Really - I have no skin in this. Enjoy your stats related discussion guys/gals!
  12. CoreCombat

    AS BEFORE THE CREDIT SHOULD GO TO : A huge thanks to those like Cupboy / (PSU) maradine / (Psu) Aarth .

    Here's the rest of the data ( does not include SMG's , sniper rifles or pistols ) that was previously posted before on different sites all compiled :

    In * some* areas the NC DO have an advantage for infantry , this is why I've said that infantry combat *is* a bit more balanced . Although the discrepancies are NOT as large as they are with vehicles . Still after digesting this info, it is notable that the majority of the NC weapons to their counter parts do NOT perform as well (aside from a few examples) .

    Examples :

    LMG : (posted earlier ) Source :


    AR's source:


    MAX weapons ( AI ONLY ) : Source :

    First page:


    Second page:


    Carbines: Source:[IMG]

    Unfortunately this all leads to the NC getting 9-11% LESS KILLS as an empire in total .

    Also NC players in general rank lower in Battle rank versus other empires ( its possible there's higher attrition rate with the NC then there are with other empires..... )

    Final results for the data pull(s) Source:


    Also other tidbits of info : The most recent competition between large/ high ranked US OUTFITS for SOE :
    Source :

    All the teams and their scores:
    4013 Future Crew -- VS
    2961 DasAnfall, No Nonsense Gamers and The Great White Whales -- VS
    2544 DVS Gaming -- NC outfit that went VS
    2352 Blaze of Glory -- VS
    2278 NUC -- TR
    2240 TRG Team 1 -- TR
    2175 TIW -- NC
    1972 The Forty Deuce and Reachcast -- VS
    1930 666th Hammered 3-4 -- NC
    1608 SwagSwag -- NC
    1448 Recursion -- NC
    1387 Team Awesome --TR
    1349 ZRT and H4TZ -- NC
    1151 Azure Twilight and Vindicators -- VS
    1103 TRG Team 2 -- TR
    1018 666th Dog Pound -- NC

    There is not a single NC outfit in the top 5 in fact the *highest* ranked NC outfit placed 7th ....Unless you count DVS switching to VS .

    Also : Not a single NC in the top 5 for the leader boards for Kills or score : ( data pull on 9/13/2013)

    Actually the majority of the top 5 only displays one empire.......

    Only 3 NC have placed in the top 10 for the leader boards for kills or score : ( data pull on 9/13/2013)


    All the data points that I've seen over various sites compiled here.

    Either NC players are just flat out terrible or there's something else amiss. In both casual game play OR try hard/ competition level the NC are just totally outclassed as an empire..
    • Up x 3
  13. axiom537

    And why would the NC Faction have under average players? or lack organization? is it because their faction colors are blue? Please explain how you come to this conclusion?

    Personally I think it is a combination of under preforming weapons and functionality of those weapons (faction traits). Experienced FPS players are going to notice this imbalance and eventually either leave the game completely or move to other factions, thus in effect creating a "brain drain".

    The NC have plenty of good empire specific weapons, especially on paper. However, they are EXTREMELY situational...AI Max, Phoenix, jackhammer, Max Ability, etc. etc..... If you look at the equivalent weapons from the other two empires you will see that on paper, they are weaker. However, they are much more versatile, less situational and are better then the NS equivalents, which the NC tend to use more because their empire specific weapons in those classes are way to situational.

    Lets look at the AI Max. Hands down on paper the NC max is King, except it is only usable in situations <10m and because of its limited ammo capacity and slow reload speed it gets 1 maybe two kills between reloads. Where as both the TR and VS AI Maxes can down multiple troops at a time before reloading and they much more useful at greater ranges, therefore you see them in places other then Bio-Labs.

    Lets look at the MAX abilities. NC get a shield, its awesome, but again it is relatively situational and mainly defensive in nature. While both the TR and VS Max abilities give them offensive buffs, while I will acknowledge that the TR lock-down is restrictive, it still gives them an offensive buff. And the ZOE is just straight up pure awesomeness in just about every situation.

    The NC are also at a disadvantage in their overall Anti-Air capabilities to the other empires, especially the TR. Both TR & VS get buffs to their Bursters, which gives them a nice AA bonus vs the NC. The Lancer is a much better weapon then the Phoenix for hitting Air consistently and the Striker is just straight up ridicules, seeing as it is 52% more powerful then the Annihilator and 40% stronger then the Hawk. So what does this mean.... It means that NC Aircraft in EVERY engagement are facing stronger ground based AA, which is either straight up killing them or forcing them out of the area, which allows enemy Air to gain air superiority more easily.

    Do I think the NC are severely gimped...Absolutely not, but they need some love...

    And contrary to NoctD, I actually think the NC player base is more skilled, because even with the lack of versatility & function in their empire specific weapons, they still put up a damn good fight, more than not using NS weapons.
    • Up x 5
  14. Axehilt

    Would be sort of nice to see Score involved in these stats, at least for vehicle-related weapons (anything which can be used against vehicles, basically.)

    By only looking at Kills, the stats are strongly skewed towards things which kill infantry better, which doesn't always indicate the best weapon.

    Still, fantastic post overall. Fantastic to see people approach things scientifically rather than simply spout a bunch of opinions.
  15. Aegie

    Do you honestly believe this?

    As if they never should have fixed flinch because that had nothing to do with overall performance? Do you really believe that there is something about NC as a faction that tends to draw or breed a lack of organization/comprehension? TR has some quality about them that just draws more good organized players?

    So, if I told you they were increasing the projectile speed and mag capacity for the ACX-11 while decreasing the COF you think that would not affect performance because NC lack an organized player base?

    If they removed the easy mode hipfire nonsense and fixed ADS that would not have any effect because people are unorganized?
    • Up x 4
  16. Fredfred

    164 kills for the c85 and over 18,000 for the marauder
    And nobody sees anything wrong with this?!!!!!!!!!!!???!!!?!??!?!??!
    • Up x 5
  17. Compass

    Besides the fact that everyone knows the C85 is garbage? Not much. The solution would be to fix the C85, duh. That's not on the players, that's on the game developers.
    • Up x 4
  18. SolLeks

    I am sorry but statically, over such a large group (IE Every player that played on every server over a 5 day peroid of time) there is no way you could use the argument of "Conclude that the likelihood is strong that NC as a faction likely has under average players as a whole"

    That is statistically impossible over such a large group so I do not buy it for one second. Also, who ever said anything about some players playing more? That was NEVER mentioned. I really do not think that the TR and VS do any better organizing and getting people to go where they are needed. Also we still have the 666 which is like the biggest outfit on our server, though I don't know how they are organized, I at least assume they are as organized as TRG, EXE and the VS equivalents.
  19. Spartan 117

    Great post OP. While this comes to no surprise to NC players, TR players will continue to dispute/refute all evidence provided. I expect to see remarks such as:

    Data unreliable
    TR just has better players
    NC are all bads
    L2P & Try Harder
    NC lack organization

    The list goes on...

    NC "Hardmore"

    • Up x 3
  20. CoreCombat

    I'm not too surprised.. When the NC max WAS over powered , I didn't mind the first round of nerfs that the unit took . IT WAS NEEDED. The second round of nerfs? That was uncalled for frankly ( not to mention the hidden nerfs to slugs that unit has which was documented but not brought into light ) .

    Anyhow, data is data. What was pulled there is presented in the API that SOE provided ( Also all the sources are pulled from SOE first or second hand ) . Anecdotal evidence , conjecture, etc. If that were the leading basis of analyzing information , then we all should start human sacrifices to the gods in order to win their favor to fix our problems right ? We're in the 21st century, such things should NOT be the primary methods of analyzing info . This isn't the dark ages lol .;)