State of the Lightning Address

History of the Lightning Part 1

The lightning, the plankton of ground vehicle ecosystem. Probably the first vehicle any new player is bound to pull, and with good reason. The lightning is a fast, versatile, and specialized tool with a very disposable feel. Like the mighty ford ranger, the lightning's cheap and functional design has allowed it to weather a very rapidly changing ecosystem, but it did not go through unscathed. It is not that the lightning is underpowered, but, it is a little dated.
Secondary buffs, new ESF weapons, New liberator weapons, Harassers, AV turrets, Shared XP bonuses etc etc...
The Lightning lived through all of this relatively unchanged....

Generally, the lightning is supposed to be the paper tiger. It is a vehicle which should offer a high-damage blitzkrieg play-style, while remaining easily countered by vehicles, infantry, and air. A lightning, unchecked, should be able to bring forth a lot of destruction in a short time frame, and rely on its speed in order to escape when its many many counters decide to react. The lightning is also supposed to be very specialized. Each build is really suitable to a single role, and its use outside that role should be very limited.

If you have come here to here how underpowered the lightning is. Prepare to be disappointed. The lightning is a good solid disposable paper tank. If you fold it right it can even turn into a stylish paper hat. Erm. Anyway, This thread will be addressing many of the common complaints people have had about lightning weapons, and offer ways not not only fix these problems, but also help bring the lightning up to date.

The 75mm Viper

"AKA the ultimate counter to all biological life in the universe. NOW with AV ability!"

Guys!!! The viper was fine before you decided to mess with it. The fact that the viper's AV ability was MASSIVELY buffed and now your nerfing both its AV and AI ability one month later indicates a lack of direction. As a lightning vet I want to stress that YOU ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY!!

The viper is currently the best AI weapon in the game available to a ground vehicle. Is this a problem? Is it a problem that the skyguard is the single best AA weapon in the game available to a ground vehicle?

Why is this fair?

Because the skyguard sucks at everything except killing air.

So why did the viper deserve an AV buff?

It didn't, not at all.

The current plan is to make the viper into a glorified heat cannon. Decent against both infantry and vehicles. The problem is, we already have a HEAT cannon. SOE this is not the right idea. Please lose the idea of the viper being a heat cannon altogether. It was a fun unique AI weapon, still OP, but generally we really like it as an alternative the HE, not HEAT.

Proposed changes

• Nerf AV strength. The viper should lose to a skyguard point blank. The Viper should be the AI equivalent of the skyguard. Read about the proposed changes to the skyguard for more information.
• Nerf reload speed 25%- Give infantry more opportunity to escape/counter the viper.
• Increase/change Recoil Pattern- Punish players for rapid-firing the viper at distant targets. The weapon should be aimed. Also gives Flak infantry a chance to cover after being hit.
• IF the viper is still too strong at AI, Nerf outer splash- Outer splash often finishes infantry that are almost dead, but the kill isn't deserved so much if the shot was that far off target.
• Retain One-hit-kill!!! Reward skill.

Expected solution

• The viper will remain an awesome AI weapon, but skill is more properly rewarded, and the tank is much easier to overwhelm. Firing a full volley turns into emergency 'oh crap' option, and little else. It should feel more like an all or nothing tactic, and its effective range should be much shorter. With a high recoil, and reload time firing this way would only be effective against close encounters with c4 faeries, or other tanks. At range this tactic will net you one hit maybe, and should be much less effective then carefully aiming each shot in a single-fire style.
• The viper remains an AI weapon, while at the same time being completely different then the HE and HEAT cannons. Rather then relying on luck and splash, the viper relies on direct hits. The viper becomes a stronger counter against Lock-on infantry, and infantry ducking behind hills then traditional cannons are. While spalsh HE is better against mobile infantry, and groups of infantry. (also see HE for more information)
• Because the viper's AV capability is reduced (like it was before SOE decided to mess with it) any vehicle can shoo the viper lightning away. Thus the viper becomes less of a solo vehicle and more of a support vehicle. AI is an MBT's weakness and the synergy between a viper lightning and an AV MBT should be encouraged.

The 100mm Python AP

"AKA the lightning who refuses to believe hes not an MBT"

When SOE said they were giving lightning turrets a balance pass I expected this to get a buff along with HEAT, but these weapons continue to be ignored. The AP cannon is good, but its fallen in GU02 and in the secondary buffs, and is long overdue for a buff of its own. The AP cannon is currently the second highest DPS cannon in the game, which is great, but its TTK is actually lower in many cases. One example is that a lightning requires a full extra shot to rear kill an enemy tank. so its TTK is lower despite the fact that the DPS is higher. This is not what is expected of an AP weapon for a paper tiger. Higher DPS is needed to compete against other tanks today.

I think giving the AP cannon more damage is the wrong approach, but others may disagree. Rear-killing enemy lightnings in 2 shots, and MBTs in 3 may be overkill, and the slightest of damage buffs would turn this into reality. Instead I propose that the Rate of Fire be increased, so that the lightning can fire more shots before he is noticed, and inevitably killed. As the paper tiger, high DPS is already well countered by poor armor. Few MBTs would consider this to be a problem, and this slight buff still wouldn't be enough to allow a lightning to stand toe to toe with a 1/2 MBT.

Another problem dates all the way way back to GU02. The lightning needs that 25m/s velocity increase guys. Last year the lightning had the same velocity as the prowler, and this was changed because of the magrider. Why was the lightning ignored in this?

Finally we have the issue where the AP cannon no longer bothers ESFs and liberators much. Composite armor, and improves fire suppression means AP cannons can't take on air.

Proposed changes

• +0.25 sec ROF buff. Allow the AP cannon to fire once every 2.75 seconds stock, so that its TTK is more on par with other cannons.
• 25m/s velocity increase. Allow the lightning to compete in ranged fights against MBTs again without aiming 3 feet in the air.

Expected Solution

• Flanking lightnings can land more shots faster, so they can do more respectable damage before the enemy can react. TTK between 1/2 MBTs and the AP cannon will much tighter as a result, and AP lightnings will be taken more seriously as a viable tank.
• The 25m/s velocity buff would allow AP lightnings to fire at longer distances allowing them to compete in more distant tank battles giving them a shred of a chance against distant vanguards and deployed prowlers who both achieve higher velocities anyway. This would allow lightnings to fight behind their bigger brothers where they belong, and allow them to be a more effective AV support tank.
• While the lightning still can't compete against libs and ESFs at least its better at its specialty. This is how lightnings should be. All or nothing in a single role.

The 100mm Python HEAT

"AKA The I want to suck at everything cannon."

I bought this cannon, and used it maybe 3 times. I am against it. Lightnings are not jack-of-all-trades. That said, the cannon shouldn't be as ineffective as it is. The HEAT should receive the same buffs as the AP cannon, and this actually solves different problems then the AP has. The velocity and reload speed buffs would make the HEAT better at both AI and AV, and make it a rather reliable all-rounder. IT fires fast enough where it can do AI work, though not as effectively as the viper or the HE, and the velocity would allow it to score direct hits against infantry more reliably. The Velocity bonus will also allow it to fight enemy tanks at a further distance. Currently 200m/s is not competitive against other tanks at all while 225m/s is.

There isn't much more to say about the cannon. With a nice ROF and good AV abilities the Heat will become what the staff is trying to turn the viper into, and its much more suited for this role then the viper is anyway. It won't be an ultimate infantry killer, but at the same time it can easily kill off enemy vipers, skyguards, and HE lightnings. This is the balance expected of a jack-of-all-trades cannon.

The 40mm Skyguard

"AKA I can't fly, and neither should you!"

Recent changes to air has made the skyguard less effective. The biggest culprits are Buffed fire-suppression for ESFs, and buffed turbo/racer for liberators. Calls for a buff against AA are not completely justified however. The skyguard remains the single most effective AA weapon in the game. If its AA ability is buffed then air will suffer from cheese. This is especially true for ESFs, and Liberators would likely still be able to turbo out anyway. (and tankbust all the same)

Instead, the skyguard should actually be more of an all-rounder then it currently is. Recent changes to resist values as well as the viper buff took out a lot of the skyguards AV bite, and it needs this back in order to be a fun weapon. Doing this would improve the skyguard across the board in a fair, fun, and effective manner.

proposed changes

• Increase max damage by 25% The skyguard should be taken more seriously up close where it can actually hit stuff
• Increase Damage dropoff so that damage remains the same at all other ranges. The skyguard is doing fine with its current damage model at all other ranges.

Expected solution

• At close up the skyguard has much more bite. ESFs will no longer be so eager to hover right next to a skyguard to pump rockets into him before he notices. 25% more damage up close will trump the new fire suppression, and give low flying ESFs far less time to react. At the same time, the high flyers, who are much less of a direct threat to the skyguard, will still receive the same damage as before, which is still significant.
• Low-flying Liberators will take much more damage before they burn away from a sneaky skyguard, and a failed tankbust will be much more punishing. The liberator will be less comfortable attempting to gank a skyguard, and the DPS difference between the 2 vehicles will be tightened.
• Meanwhile, on the ground the skyguard is much less useless, and far more suicidal. (yay suicide) The skyguard will have its bite back, and will be much less helpless against enemy tanks/c4 faeries. The skyguards effective range hasn't changed, but within 50 meters the DPS will be noticed. A skyguard who unloads a clip into the rear of an enemy tank will be noticed, and that will give the skyguard the versatility players desire.
• Skyguards will be able to compete against HE and Vipers, but still remain countered by heat, and AP.

The 100mm Python HE

"AKA The cannon time forgot"

I can't believe I'm 100 kills away from auraxium on this hunk of junk, but in my defense 90% of those kills were pre- HE nerf. The HE cannon problem is not unique to the lightning. Noone uses HE. Its terrible against vehicles, it has terrible velocity, and the terrible ROF makes it worse against infantry then heat is. Here the problem is mostly the rate of fire. It is not worth pulling an AI cannon that can only kill on direct hit, and fires almost a full second slower then its competition.

Ideally I would love to see the cannon have more splash range and damage and an even slower ROF but that is too much cheese. If the weapon's ROF was brought in line the weapon would be much more effective. I would also love to see HE cannons having there own set of resists that grant bonus damage against light vehicles. Allow it to 1-shot air, and allow its splash to damage harassers (it'll be a more fair proposition after harassers get their upcoming buff). Heck, let its splash damage all vehicles lightly like the dalton. The poor velocity and damage would still put it under, but at least HE will have a unique role.

Proposed Changes

• Increase ROF from 3.75 seconds to 3 seconds. Give the HE cannon an actual advantage over HEAT
• Allow splash to damage vehicles slightly- The carry over should allow the cannon to one-hit-kill ESFs, though in reality the poor velocity and high drop will make this pretty unlikely. The splash shouldn't be significant, but just the fact that it exists gives HE something new and exciting.

Expected solution

• The HE cannon can now fire fast enough to actually kill infantry. Lightnings now actually have a choice between this and the viper. The viper may have 6 shots, but now the HE cannon can fire its second high-splash shot sooner. The low velocity prevents sniping still, but now the HE shells are a stronger option in closer infantry battles.
• With splash damage effecting light vehicles the HE cannon will be the only lightning cannon able to one-shot ESFs, though it will be very difficult to pull it off at 175m/s. Harrassers, who again still need their buff, will have a more unique threat. Players can pull HE to specifically combat harassers rather then AP which should instead be the go-to option for heavy vehicles.
• If splash for all vehicles is added. The damage from splash shouldn't be significant, but it may allow an HE tank to pull off some unique tricks, and finish off or damage tanks that are behind full cover. It would be cool to see HE cannons flushing out vehicles that normally couldn't be hit at all, and maybe, just maybe, people would actually use HE. This is important because SOE doesn't want the weapon to be more effective against infantry then it already is.
• Even if its not an Anti-vehicle weapon it is fun, and fun is a big deal. Lets make HE something special.

Wrapping it up

I would also love to see fire suppression buffed for lightnings just as it was for ESFs. 12% of a lightnings health isn't very much, and our abilities are already quite poor compared to MBT unique abilities anyway.

Anyway, I am obviously a biased opinion, but I try not to be. I'd love to hear concerns, or suggestions. Please note that I do not think MBTs are in a great place either, but that's beyond the scope of this thread, and beyond my authority on the subject. there are professional MBT drivers like aesir, deggy, alerox, and van who can make threads related to these. (hmm. It comes to be that I don't know a good prowler driver on the forums...oh well)

Please, try to avoid whining, and avoid rants about MBT balance. This is a thread about lightnings folks!!

Thank you!

Good post, but i think i have to disagree with the Heat. I have around 90 kills wit the other Lightning weapons so i lack experience saying anything about them but iam close before Auraxium with the Heat and i love it. It is strong against infantry, and i normaly dont loose to other Lightnings with it. When i want to polish my k/d this is what i pull.

Solid post. Very good points all around.
Gonna go use Viper before the nerf

Have you used AP?
with 25m/s higher velocity, bonus damage vs. armor, and more accuracy to get those one-shots against infantry its got a lot going for it over heat.
That said, I proposed the exact same changes to heat as I did to AP. Mostly just to keep them in line with each other.

In the current state of things however HEAT is really a straight downgrade from viper, since viper does more AV damage, and has the best AI in the game. SOE is trying to bring the viper in line with the heat, while I would much rather see the viper continue as a unique AI weapon that is outclassed by HEAT in AV.

Was I unfair in my quote? yeah.That's my own bias coming out. I don't feel the lightning is a really great vehicle for general-pupose playstyles, but if heat had a .25sec faster ROF and 25m/s higher velocity I might just use it since it has a nice mix of AI and AV strength. Its pretty much what SOE is trying to turn the viper into.

Great post, hopefully SOE considers some of what you said

Skyguard just need a tighter COF?
Currently it has a WW2 cannon spreading bullets here and there

Yes, but it explodes on proximity.
The COF isn't all bad, because it allows you to hit targets actively trying to dodge your shots, and at the same time its tight enough to still reliably hit larger targets even at a distance.
This has been suggested many times as a solution to many problems to the skyguard, but unless your trying to hit a ESF hovering 200 meters over a point its not going to help. The shots explode on proximity, and the spread ensures more hits when ESFs start rolling and diving.
Consider how hard it is to hit ESFs with an A30 walker when they begin similiar maneuvers. That a30 walker has twice the velocity of the skyguard.

I would rather less COF so that I can more reliably land those couple extra shots needed to kill an ESF I just unloaded on at my effective kill range, which coincidentally is also an A2G esf's effective kill range against ground targets.

A tighter COF would also make the skyguard too effective against infantry.

The real problem and frusteration with a skyguard is against low-flying liberators who tankbust, and follow with a <50 meter dalton/shredder. The skyguard should have enough DPS to punish the liberator if the skyguard was prepared. This is also true with especially cocky fire suppression ESFs who can unload decent damage to a skyguard and escape reliably thanks to his powerful fire suppression buff.

Solid post, but i have to disagree with the HE assessment. I think i unlocked the weapon a while ago when it was on sale and eventually equipped it to see whether it was any good. I ended up getting the auraxium on it faster than with any other weapon (~20h).

With 3.75s reload, it's actually the fastest reloading HE variant in the game, and both damage/splash are comparable with MBT weapons. Based on that, I really couldn't support any buffs to the weapon in good conscience, and especially not a buff that increases viability against vehicles. Equipping HE should mean that you're cannon fodder for non-HE setups.

yes though lightning HE is the best among the other HE variants, for sure. MBTS should most definitely be getting the same treatment. I don't think I specifically said that, but it was implied.
The problem is, What does HE have over HEAT or viper? is a moderately larger non-lethal splash radius worth a 25% slower fire rate, less AV damage, and lower velocity? Since, I haven't actually seen a single HE lightning in months(or any HE variant at all for that matter) I think players are generally saying no.
All lightning weapons are comparable to MBT weapons. The lightning doesn't have secondaries, and has far less armor, and as part of being the paper tiger it is supposed to carry a higher DPS then its bigger brothers.

Now about your legit concern about HE's ability vs. vehicles. I didn't give any numbers, but I don't intend for the HE to be competitive against heat or AP against armor. Only that it be able to deal damage in a unique way. In a slug match between a heat lightning and a HE lightning the heat should win easily, but I didn't run numbers to figure out what the values should be in order to achieve the right effect.

Anyway, I'm trying to think of ways we can expand the role and enjoyment of HE since SOE will not allow HE to be as effective against infantry as it should be given its disadvantages against armor/air.

I can almost guarantee that the MBT HE variants are never going to get properly buffed for AI purposes again. Stats show that these weapons, despite their crappy state, consistently get the highest KPUs among all tank weapons. I have no data on the lightning, but i'd imagine that it's at least performing on the same level as the mag and prowler, both of which are actually pretty much on par.

As for your HEAT vs HE question: I can't compare them because i have not spent any time with the HEAT, but i can say that i did get a lot of kills with splash against clusters of infantry. Maybe i'd have gotten them with HEAT too, but i kind of doubt it to be honest. Anyway, my main point is that I don't think an AI buff for the L-HE is either particularly realistic, nor is it something that's quite warranted. This is purely subjective though ... maybe my experience with the weapon was unusual.

Let me try to reiterate what I'd desire for AV effectiveness between lightning variants in a 1 on 1 scenario.

AP > all lightnings
HEAT > HE, Skyguard, Viper
Skyguard- Beats viper, and HE point blank.
Viper- beats Skyguard and HE at a medium range.
HE- Can beat a skyguard at longer ranges. Has additional utility.

I forgot that Sony is trying to turn HE into heat as well. Those changes should be reverted. If trends continue the lightning will have 4 heat cannons and a skyguard...grumble grumble grumble.

Thats a false stat though as we know. Is anyone surprised that an AI weapon has a higher KPU then an AV weapon or a skyguard? I also believe that the viper is far and away coming out with the highest KPU, and even with its nerf it will still be better then HE in every way.

Unless I'm not familiar with what KPU is. Its kills per...something. I figure the K part is enough to gander its not a good way to compare.

The only AI buff I'm suggesting is a ROF buff, and if heat and ap are also buffed HE will still be the slowest-firing weapon, but if its not changed both the viper and heat will probably be better unless your shooting into the door of a building, which I'm afraid I have no good answer for. ITs a shame farming tactics can ruin weapons.

The KPU discrepancy is simply because infantry is easier to kill then vehicles. If you could get all the stats its a pretty even bet that the number of infantry killed with AP turret variants probably make up most of those weapons as well so a weapon designed for AI work will have a high KPU. In this case with these suggestions KPU is not really the correct statistic to look at you need to analyze the data in a more complex way to determine how is it performing in it's designed role compared to similar weapons rather then simply looking at how many people can be farmed.

Yeah, like MY ap cannon's kills are probably 90% stationary RL infantry just because infantry always jump out of vehicles, and I can't hit them as they run around.

I'm far too jaded to really care anymore but I've already suggested previously that the Pythons (all varieties) could use some buffs. Mostly along the lines of what you propose too - the extra boost in projectile speed is definitely nice.

However - I fully expect that HE will remained nerfed to uselessness, for all tanks. The least SOE can do is give the HEAT and AP some loving. I'm fine with the slight buff to Skyguards too, but the HEAT and AP in particular really need some attention and changes.

Meanwhile - Libs apparently are fine being "too good at everything" because I don't see any C150 Dalton or AP30 Shredder nerfs being talked about - both these weapons are even better/more all rounded than the Viper that got hit pretty hard with the nerf bat. The Basilisk nerf is also a stealth Lib buff... ask yourself which targets are the Basilisk viable against that it needs range for? Libs!

Just buffing the projectile speed on the HE will make a difference since right now at range the infantry can be out of splash range by the time the shell gets there, if he sees you are about to shoot.

I doubt this will ever happen, unfortunately. Looking at all other tank changes, tank vs. infantry is an ongoing theme that gets nerf after nerf. But yes it does make a difference, and why people used the Viper in place of HE right now, cause you can at least direct hit/kill more often.

It's kills per user and it's quite decent for judging AI weaponry, actually. Also, a two shot viper could be worse than the current LHE, but i'd have to test it to say. Anyway, i have nothing further to add to the discussion than the above stated opinion

I was thinking about that, but decided to go for ROF increase instead. I decided rof over velocity because it makes HE a little more unique with its lobbed shells.

Your opinion is appreciated.
At the very least you pointed out that I forgot HE was recently buffed against vehicles. That needs to go away. They need to think of a better way to buff HE then changing it into another heat cannon.