[Suggestion] Spawn Limitations

The hybrid hex solution looks promising. But this is unrelated to base capture. It just maximizes the usage of the game's landscape. It won't change how a base is captured except in siege. But a base fight will still be infantry spawning in unceasingly. I see the choke points being the same kind of battle. It looks like the vehicle battles will be more integrated, sure.

I'm sorely disappointed with how squad play goes in this game. Getting into an outfit with 200+ people didn't change anything for me. Maybe I haven't been playing enough. But I believe that if spawn limits were set, squad play would become that much more important because now you have to allocate your most precious resource: men. If you don't use your men right then you'll be losing battles and the outfit is the number one place where you can control how your troops are deploying. And that's what I want out of this.

If the base capture was any faster, You could literally Gal-drop on the front line, and the enemy couldn't reach it.
And with Longer Death times paired with that; If the enemy did reach it, the time to retake it, is about 1 minute.
Mustering anything, to a Zerg, is longer than a Minute.

And it sounds like you want people, to be hard-nosing every battle.
Most of us, don't enjoy staring at a respawn screen for minutes, since someone spawned a tank, fired a sniper rifle, threw C-4, or were in an Aircraft that can cross the map in 1 minute - that proceeded to ~.5 second kill us in any vehicle since we didn't vanish or had Sheer AA firepower around us.

Looks to me like a great suggestion to make sure people spend less time in the fight, and a lot more time running around and trying to get to the fight. Bad idea.

I don't think it should be an increased timer. I think it should be a total allowable spawn count. After you used up your spawns then you can't spawn in that region anymore; not until it's defended or captured. So you just pop into another region and fight there. It would never slow your play time down. It would just force you to be more tactical and make your lives count if you want to capture.

Why because you have to spawn in another region to come back to the same region? If that's what you want to do rather than go to another region that is open. You're not afraid to start a fight in an empty region are you? Grab a sundy and go. People follow.

So, one ESF or Tank comes in, and You deplete that entire region's ability to defend itself, easily, By Taking pot-shots with AOE.
Well done, Now it's worse than I Ever thought it was, as a suggestion.

As Infantry is now worse than useless: As Infantry are expected to die, a lot.
Objective Play, where you have what, 10-20, chances, at best, Means everyone would be scared to fight.
A single aircraft comes in, every easy kill, from Grenades, to maxes, to Tank fire; You can do everything right, and You're screwed.
A Max comes in, You flee, so you can actually play.
Bio Lab Fight; Your entire ability to play hinges on you Camping harder than them.

Enemy Spawn-Camps; That entire region is now impossible to defend, damn quick.
It also quite literally Forces the losing side into re-deployside Hard.

C-4 Becomes the quickest way to Deplete your ability to act.
Tanks become harder to kill, as the risk & threat is reduced entirely, as the entire threat is dead after a few kills.
Same with Max Units.

Aircraft now only have to kill their targets a couple times, and they've completed removed the defenders' ability to defend.
You can lock down an entire hex for large amounts of Population, by not capturing it.
That would be the Ultimate Tactical Play; You deplete the underpop's entire ability to spawn across numerous hexes.

And all it takes, is Tanks, and Aircraft.

You want a Fight, or a Russian-Roulette for where a Fighter matters?
Why take the Point, or destroy a Spawn, when you can deny their entire ability to respawn, by letting them keep it.

You'd be screwing yourself, to grab a Sundy to the next Region, unless You take it, inside those lives.
As every death pushes you closer to warpgate.
Every single Business-Only Outfit, would spawn-camp hard.

I can't find the link, but there's another great proposal from the past that suggested making every capturable base neutral. This forces both sides to bring their own Sunderers and armor and essentially puts each team on equal footing. For example, if you're on Northern Indar and take back Ceres from the eastern faction, the Crown becomes neutral and both sides have to move up Sunderers to fight over it. Some extra Sundy locations and teails would have to be added to some bases, such as Ti Alloys, and Amp stations would need to all be made 3-point. This would also fix those stalemate bases like Bastion. It would also be a solution to spawn room heros.

What I love about the Hybrid Hex, is that vehicles could be tuned up against infantry, and infantry could be cranked up through roof against vehicles at close range. Basically eliminating vehicle farming at bases, while giving vehicles a constant and important role of fighting over land. If a problem baee is surrounded, cut off, maybe enemy spawn rate could be cut in half, and mini hexes couldn't be continued until the sieges base was capped. Or defenders could reconnect the base through a mini Hex and get full spawn rate back.

As for limiting pop without slow g the flow of troops, there could be some sort of ticket system per attack. That would let a smaller force stand a chance against a mindless zerg. I'd be down with that. But you'd still have the vehicle/infantey farming relationship to worry about, which heavily favors attackers.

Either way, I think the lattice and capture mechanics need to be addressed first.

Oh so now it's offense that has the tougher situation because defense spawn camps hard?

That's an easy fix and you know it. Remember, we haven't talked about how this would be implemented at all. So you've got to be creative and start thinking of the BEST scenario rather than the worst. How could you fix that problem?

Neutral bases might help but honestly I don't think they are necessary or make enough sense. There is every reason to fight for real estate for it's inherent value. Having a base should come with perks and I think implementing spawn limits would create the greatest perk for having a base. This is how a small force would overcome a larger attacking force because each player has a boosted spawn count from spawning at the base while the attacking force is slowly dwindling down. Easy.

I like the hybrid hex idea but I don't think it's necessary to even the playing field for infantry and vehicles. How is it done in real life? Cost. If there is too much power coming from vehicles then they simply are not expensive enough. I've noticed this from the beginning. I thought immediately how cheap all these vehicles were that they could be spammed the way they are. Again, an easy solution. No need to make it unrealistic to even it out. Realism is the great guide but not a law of course.

Offense, is the one spawn-camping.
As the Defense is funneled into Chokepoints, and open terrain from Lattice Bases.

The only time, Offense would be screwed, is if they went in Sunderers alone.

An easy fix?
You want every single fight, to be hard-limited in lives, So any Risky Play is discouraged hard, over that will just Depletes the enemy's stock from a position they can't lose.
Creative solutions to handling an Enemy max Crash? Like what? You will lose more men than them.
Enemy Vehicle Zerg? C-4, means a Man per attempt dies, unless done Absolutely perfect, and even then, can die.
Anti-Air? TTK on them is either pitiful, or near instantous.
Problem is, That Air can reach any location from the Warpgate, leaving them entirely unaffected.

Attacking an PMB? Good luck.
Infinitely Replaced Turret systems, that are automated.

The game's bases, are set-up so the squishy infantry, are exposed where they have no options.
It isn't set-up, for a Hard-limit life count on all fighters in a Hex.
That ensures that any combat, is limited to those who avoid anything that risks themselves.
Any AOE or Mass-Killing, becomes God, even if it can't be sustained; As you don't need to sustain anything.

Low Population times? You can deplete the entire enemy's population at your bases, or theirs.
Across the entire front line, and then next one, ahead.
Then they have to defend from 2-9 Hexes away, with no Respawn options: That is a Victory strat, you can't actually counter.
The enemy refuses to cap a base, So you are unable to spawn there; That means you also can't muster vehicles there.

It encourages the complete prevention of fighting, before going for objectives.
That Farming people, to deplete them, is better than just attacking; That not even capturing the base, is better.
From a tactical perspective, You don't want to cap till they can't even reach the base to stop you.
Not if Bright, and wanting to win the map.

I wonder just how feasible that is. Remember, your spawn count is reduced and you can easily make it to where you can't spawn at all in territory you don't have a connection to, thereby eliminating the ability to create a spawnless front line.

All that has to happen is that one guy captures a point in a territory and that forces the defense to reset the spawn. Do you really think that guys are going to stand point in a region to keep people from even capturing one point? Remember this is all about resources. There are rarely enough people online to do this for multiple regions. And what? After they make the region spawnless, then they can't take anymore territory at all. It would NEVER work as you say. People are here to take objectives. Not capturing a territory means that no one is capturing a territory. The only time it would be a good strategy would be when you are already winning an alert and I actually like that idea.

These bases are designed where the only way to take them is to throw bodies at choke points. We don't have enough room to flank or maneuver. Neutral bases allow more angles of attack, instead of defenders having to hammer through choke points under HESH spam. I'm all for limited spawns, but not until the "more bodies" meta is addressed.

The whole point of the Hybrid Hex is that it gives vehicles a meaningful playground, and would let infantry be defensively buffed against vehicles so they have their own playground. Not only that, it solves the problem of having to ditch a vehicle once you happen upon a base that needs infantry. More expensive vehicles would only make that part of the game even more frustrating.

You can't actually.
Cross an open-field with no spawn-options - You die, you go all the back.
You have to reach your enemy's Lattice link; If this trick is done , that's 2 hexes from you.
All they have to do, is move forward, in vehicles, Your Vehicle pad is near impossible to defend.
If Air is involved, they can just stalk the path -- The enemy also just has to prevent your very slow, very far away forces from capping their base, after they farmed the defenders.
They have no risk at all, at regenerating your respawns -- and even then, That just means they control when you spawn.
So they have a Farm-at-will.

If you can't spawn in, without a connection line; This doesn't affect the tactic at all.
Your enemy, the one you're depleting of spawns, They don't have the time, but the force attacking does, for Reinforcements.
Add in Air, and they can air-drop their forces in.
Everything becomes, a First-strike-determines-all battle, the surviving power just creeps forward.


If they're as controlled, as you'd like.
Any ally that is dumb enough to even try to capture a point is executed on the spot.

Right now, we have Zergs, that will cap a point with no one there to fight, for several minutes.
We have people who ghost-cap, and defend against ghost cap; They have to sit for several minutes.
If the goal is more tactical play; Sitting around, is patience incarnate.

People are here to fight battles, typically; If you want them to be focused solely on objectives.
The best more reliable way, to capture the Objective, which You want as the Key point: Is to remove the threat of the enemy.
This is why Zergs of Groups like Recursion, FPSK, which are focused on singular goals (FPSK on winning the continent), and do not care about the 'fun' of battle.

The most tactical way to win, is to prevent the enemy from acting.
To play the Objective, to the highest degree; Is to dominate the battlefield.
There is nothing better than Force-multiplier spam, depleting the entire enemy defense.
Do this to the next base over, when their respawns are limited, and You have no risk from enemy incursion.

Their arrival time, also includes the entire distance always.
If it doesn't get bypassed at the warp-gate, A zerg, can also Entirely wipe a Faction out, without them taking a single territory.

Dedicated outfits, will do meta.
The dominate meta, will be extermination via Farming.

I feel you on how open the bases are to vehicles. I don't see how the hybrid hex would buff infantry against vehicles. You're saying that they should be buffed on top of the new meta?

Also, why wouldn't limited spawns address the "more bodies" meta? Let's just say you fix the vehicle:infantry meta and now you are at a base. If everyone's spawn is limited now, throwing more bodies just isn't going to cut it because you don't have more to throw. If we all go down a choke point then we all die and the fight ends. And if we do all do this, then the choke point served its purpose as a defensive strategy or as a way to push through. One of the biggest reasons I suggested limiting the spawn count is so that the choke point battles actually matter by dwindling down the troops. You can choose to take the bull by the horns and beat them head on or the side angle.

Alright so let's address this. I told you it was an easy fix so here goes. Limited spawns only in regions bordering enemy regions OR limited spawns only in regions connected to enemy regions.

Now was that hard? You now have no limit in your inner territory. So if a zerg pushes you out, you zerg them back. If there is no zerg to push them back then you will slowly dwindle their forces down every single kill until they can't spawn in that region either. If population is so out of balance, how does that change the original meta now? Over populated factions primarily win the continent anyway.

If any connected region has a spawn reset then those connected regions also have a spawn reset. So a small group can go behind enemy lines, take 1 control point and start the battle over again in their own territory.

How is this bad? You are basically describing the power of a super populated faction and they have that power right now anyway. There is no greater advantage sitting on a spawnless territory except some time you gain. And that is totally acceptable. I like that idea.

So I can completely murder an entire region's ability to have defenders.
Whom if they die, are unable to fight, without increasing travel times, every time.
More so easily accomplished by being in a Tank, Max, or Air unit, and near impossible to actually defend against, without avoiding combat entirely.


Right now, No one side can literally remove players permanently from a Fight by spamming AOE, or tanks.
They can't ensure someone is cut off from the fight, past a traveling entire hexes to return: Which is easy for Aircraft only.
They certainly can't Kill off the entire ability to attack or defend, by throwing a unsustainable assault.
You can't just spam tanks at spam for a minute, and ta da, the entire defense is rendered unable to spawn.

Right now, if you farm a point, or chokepoint, You don't end their entire ability to operate.
You can't single out a single person, Murder them a few times, and they're gone unless they manually travel from the entire opposite hex.
Nor can you basically empty an entire Bio-lab with a String of OSCs, preventing everyone there from playing there.
You can't End a fight by spamming explosives; You have to actually tactically push them back & hold them there.

You want to play tactically? Face a Outfit that doesn't care about fun.
You'll die to a perfect head-shot every time, Or Tank Spam, in 12v12. Or 96+vs6.
They can't lock you out of a Hex right now, nor a fight; It can hopeless, but you can at least Have a Fight on the continent.
If they can remove your entire abillity to respawn; Every single Good fight is over near instantly.
You can at least have some manner of cert-income or fun, until they Can do that.

Every push, requires people to not coddle their respawns.
As that means, they will not be confident or brave; They won't try anything new.
Right now, trying something new, Doesn't lock you out of the only fight on the map.

Edit: Not to mention.
Zergs are not something to encourage.
There is no 'tactics' in "Send a wave of 96 men, to the fight of 12 people"

Now what hasn't been mentioned yet is what I think is the true obstacle to this idea and that is coordination. How will you know what territories are spawnless or half spawned. How will you know how many reinforcements you have left?

Two simple solutions. Always list the actual number of players in the continent. Just as you list the number of players in a region as an estimate, list the number of reinforcements for that region that are left as an estimate. Done.

Why should there ever be the only fight in the map? How is that possible? You have plenty of connected regions and once you die in that region with no more spawns then you just go to another region. Let's say an outfit blocks their whole frontline and makes it spawnless. What then? Generally they will only have blocked half of your connected frontline. You can attack the other faction if you want to. You can have some fun and go behind their lines and capture ONE control point and BING! the respawn count is reset. You can fight them all over again in that region.

The only time I ever see this happening is with a massive scale effort AFTER they have taken the majority of territory in an alert. That would help them defend their territory on all fronts and make time to win the alert. That is good! How many times does the alert fire back on the faction that started it because now the two losing factions team up. Well now there is a strategy to defend.

Low Pop Hours, Map Design, Zergs.
There is only a limited front line spots.

Not to mention, You just explained why your system removes tactics.
As it forces Re-deploying to any & every fight, over trying to win a lattice line.
It also forces any long fight to Die, not due to tactics, or strats, but just due to Pointless deaths.

It also means, any attempt to kill an MBT, is a suicidal venture that just locks you out of the entire battle.
Add in short cap times, and Every fight is decided in the first volley.

Ok, your perspective: deaths are pointless. But now they have a pretty important point when you can't respawn, don't you think? Now the tactics are important and there is a new one: don't die. Hmm, that sounds like the major reason for tactics to begin with.

It doesn't force redeploying. How does it force redeploying?

It will shorten battles from defense to defense and from capture to capture but the WAR is lengthened.

Oh yeah, trying to kill an MBT is suicide. I'm glad the experience matches what it really is now.

There is no reason the capture times should be out of balance with this new mechanic. There is no reason that the limit of the spawns should make the battle decided in the first volley. You can limit it however much you want.