[Suggestion] Spawn Limitations

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Ketenks, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. Ketenks

    I think this game could benefit from there being some limitation on how many times you are able to spawn in a territory or from a specific spawn point.

    Here are my arguments for it:

    1. Deaths matter beyond K/D. Deaths will now actually reduce your cert gain potential.

    2. A little more realistic fighting instead of suicide runs. In a real fire fight, you are not going to stick your head out unless you have to and not without proper intelligence.

    3. Snipers become more of an asset for territory acquisition and objective completion since the number of people will actually reduce as you kill them for a given territory.

    4. Snipers will be a more expensive option with riskier reward. They will become more niche and you will see less CQC snipers.

    5. Every class will now be highlighted for their abilities when you start caring how many times you die. Statistics for deaths in each class can reveal how tactical your choices have been. Maybe this will reveal underlying imbalances in the game when people start choosing classes in an unbalanced proportion.

    Obviously the arguments against it are simply population and the perceived reduced value in sunderers. But maybe sunderers don't have to be as limited.

    I never said how limited spawning has to be. But if there were some limitation, I think it would improve the game play.
    • Up x 1
  2. Campagne

    I don't like the idea in any capacity.

    The more players are punished for dying, the more cowardly and uncompetitive they will play. Why be a medic and risk death when a person can just sit in an HE lighting? As if they need to be even more rewarded than they already are. Why repair a MAX when a player could just be the MAX?

    Not a good or fun direction for the game, in my opinion.
    • Up x 6
  3. Ketenks

    I think those are valid questions now though right? Since you would farm more kills as MAX or lightning anyway. By limiting spawn count you effectively limit farming kills and thereby increase the value of objective play. Again, we don't know how much it should be limited to do this right but this is the direction that it would go.
    • Up x 1
  4. LordKrelas

    The moment deaths matter, the sheer volume of near instant kills become unbearable.
    Someone gets a tank, an ESF, A Max unit, and suddenly, your ability to even get certs is impaired due to deaths?
    Every infantry AV option, is facing highly lethal long-range AI killing power from Vehicle AV, let alone AI weaponry.
    Enemy Zergs: Now what?

    Taking & Holding Capture Points, isn't an affair, where you want everyone bright to be afraid to be the front-line, to be the first in.
    With deaths being meaningless, people already will not risk a basic charge, nor storm in.
    These charges, are critical to actually being victorious in the long run.
    Engineers & Medics; Your supporting role makes you a target, with the least defensive abilities.
    Without a Punishment, people already do not take risks, at all.

    In a real-fire fight, Throwing several thousand pounds of explosives down a corridor, rather than use a rifle, seems a lot better.
    Except, Grenade Spam isn't the most enjoyable thing to endure.
    Why, as we happen to have several hundred near unavoidable deaths, that take less than a second.
    And you want people to not 'poke their head out', unless they have innate details or information about that area.
    -- When they can respawn without cost, They already have issues actually taking point, or actually fighting.

    Snipers, become the target of absolute hatred, as does SMG Infiltrators, Stalkers, even as well.
    Why? As once the death matters, these & vehicles, will be the most hated people on PS2.
    As it's a near instant death, for all the cost; When death isn't Base-capture-by-itself value,the ambushing potential becomes less value.

    Snipers will pale in comparison to an MBT with HESH or HEAT.
    Or an ESF with an AI Gun like a Banshee, with Missile Pods.
    As the sheer volume of killing power, is far from a sniper.
    For 250 nanites, the ability to outrun or chase down any target, with high-powered weapons, with incredible range.
    Or 250, for a tank, that also can survive near anything small groups will use, and has AOE Shells.

    Given any motive to work without a massive over-pop will die off; As the smaller the group, the easier it is to be killed by another group.

    Engineers have no direct survival abilities, their primary use is vehicle operators.
    Heavy-Assaults, are when deaths don't matter, the most used Class; As they have a direct ability that increases their health, and have a weapon for every problem.
    Medics, have regenerative abilities & highly effective rifles.
    LA's, are not survivalists, past Risky-as-hell-close-quarters engagements usually.
    Infil require ambush or sheer range, to survive anything.

    MAXes are 450 nanite investments, that have tons of counter-measures; Most of which are risky.

    Who exactly wants to risk their entire cert gain, to kill the enemy MBT shelling the entire base from outside?
    Who wants to sacrifices their certs, to go kill the max, when they will certainly die?
    Who wants to HESH the spawn room, and exits, instead of sacrificing their certs, by being infantry?

    No one will want to spawn at a Sunderer.
    You do that, and the enemy can easily massacre you: You're outside typically, exposed, with no information at all about where that sundy is.
    A single stalker, can haunt terminals, to sunderers, and you can't exactly avoid that first death, when you just spawned in.
    Now for tanks; You aren't avoiding that high-speed shell to the face all that easily, that is fired at the spawn room.
    You aren't crossing that field; As Tanks, Snipers, Aircraft.
    You're in an open space, or capture-point; One aircraft can cleanse the entire area.

    Death is expected, once it has a price, the sheer volume of near instant death, just screws everything.
    As it certainly won't limit farming; Farming is done typically where the enemy has to spawn.
    As when it does prevent it: It does so, by having the fight instantly die, if there is resistance.

    A few outfits showcase this;
    They zerg out, if enemies manage to resist at all, they re-deploy entirely.
    If not, they camp, and kill every single person they can, with sheer numbers & cheeky ****.

    They lose 5 guys, Suddenly the entire 96+vs12 vanishes.
    Then they come back in a Mass Galaxy drop, and cycle.

    Or you just see vehicle zergs, and have no option to fight it, if you don't zerg harder.
    Or you just see Air Zergs, as Good bloody luck killing it.


    IE, making people even less inclined to actually fight, or take risks, just makes combat basically an exercise of "Only fight, when You can't be struck"
    Is not the most engaging gameplay, when either you see the death screen before seeing anyone, or are killing someone instantly -- in-between long sessions of nothing but sneaking around as Heavy-Assaults or SMG Infiltrators.
    And no one else is doing anything different, but past Vehicle Spam.

    • Up x 1
  5. Ketenks

    If objective play got a boost to its cert gain then I think it would balance out the loss of farming kills. I like more realistic fire fights. I like playing games with friendly fire and so I know limiting spawns can be balanced out for a good experience.

    It would probably just turn this game into a completely different one though. So I understand if it's too radical to be implemented.
  6. Ge0mancer

    Interesting. For me the lack of penalty for death is a major selling point BUT an Alert where something like this was in effect could be really cool and also allow them to see what the actual impact would be on play. Obviously you'd have to be able to Spawn in your warpgate whenever you wanted.
    • Up x 1
  7. Ketenks

    If it was simply an Alert in game the quick shift in strategy would have certain backlash in the community.

    I think the only way to test this is to put out a Beta and have players download a single continent where this is implemented. The difference in context will allow players to treat it as a separate game and not as though it were robbing them of whatever experience they've become accustomed to.
  8. LordKrelas

    Then suddenly, You'll see an entire 96+ Drop on 12-man fights, to reap that EXP reward, with the perk of easy kills if any.

    In this game, Death is easily achieved.
    We have Tanks , Snipers, Aircraft, Explosives, AOE weapons, One-Shot Kills, Headshot multipliers, MAX units, mass open fields, and several hundred players.
    You can die upon spawning in. Instantaneously.

    Death penalties favor large groups over small, pretty hard.
    As their count counteracts the entire cost.

    PTS server, can handle that -- is what it is for.
  9. Ketenks

    Yes, as it is in real life. Numbers generally win out. So overpopulated factions would tend to have an advantage. But get this, defense would be more important too. If you can hold out and just kill people as they come in, you know sooner or later they will trickle down unless new players keep logging in.

    This advantage would also be good for finishing fights quicker and moving on to the next one. Everyone can regroup in the next territory and start over from there. Certainly at every change of territory control there should be a reset for all connected regions for their spawn limits. That means at every change of control the fight starts all over again.

    This will create more tactical play. Finish fights quicker. Get more experience for being a part of the fight. So it will help new players who are learning the ropes. Right now cert gain favors performance. But in this way, cert gain can be more about the objective.

    I don't mind if continents are flipping faster for this reason.
  10. LordKrelas

    You do realize, that Defense in this game, doesn't work.
    Spawn Rooms are exposed to exterior fire, from Tanks with AOE Shells, from outside practical retaliation range.
    Vehicle Pads are also exposed, let alone the terminals to exterior threats from outside the base.
    The Massive walls around spawn-rooms, typically are used to entrap the defenders easily.

    There are bases with hills over-looking the limited paths of travel for the defense.
    Defensive Turret positions on Lattice Bases; Are barely given a firing angle.
    There are many bases, with Defensive AV turrets aimed where they can only hit friendly-forces using the facilities; Better for the Enemy's Infiltrators, than allied defense.

    We do not have, Any defensive positions that can hold off squads even, without mass death of the defenders.
    Nothing is able to even slow a Zerg down in the lattice worth a damn, in most bases; It is the hardest to slow down the offense.

    All cap points in general, are easier to take, than to defend.

    With your cost to death, The Zerg would exterminate any ability to defend, and it would prevent any possible return of the Defenders.
    As they can't ever, counteract the enemy zerg, if the zerg isn't so brain dead, that it can't use numbers.

    This is a game, You do not want it a "Zerg the position, whom fights a lost cause" as the only way to do anything.
    The enemy facing that zerg; They're players too, typically in a "You are ******" Situation, that the game Endorses.

    Start in the next hex? Against an enemy that already won the first engagement, so will again, unless something changes.
    Let alone when the defeated side, has a Penalty for losing that first fight: it snowballs. Hard.

    When the continents are flipping inside an hour & a half, since the first zerg can not ever be stopped...
    You won't ever not be suffering that Death cost, Unless you're in the over-pop.

    Edit: IE, your cost would add additional benefits to the already massive advantage that is overpopulation in fights.
    As now they have the advantages of out-numbering, and every death of the smaller force has an Additional Artificial cost on top.
    So, the small group is ****** in every single possible way, and might as well log the hell off.
    • Up x 2
  11. Ketenks

    Yeah I expected this kind of response. Still, I would like spawn limitations for its benefits more than its downsides. I bet you it wouldn't be as bad as you make it sound.
  12. LordKrelas

    And what benefits are those?
    I spawn-camp, and the enemy is dead?
    I use an ESF, and the enemy is penalized hard, since they died to an ESF, that they could do nothing about, past Not exist?
    I get a Zerg on a base, and the enemy is penalized for trying to defend?

    What are these Benefits, to adding "Penalize your opponent" , when killing them?
    As that's adding to "If you out-number the enemy you have:
    • More Nanites
    • More grenades
    • More Health pools to deplete
    • More weapons-fire to hit them
    • More Eyes to see everything
    • More Force Multipliers
    • Less Penalty for Reinforcements
    • More Medics
    • More Engineers
    • More Focus-fire
    With a death penalty, defending against even equal numbers; One tank, one ESF, or one Explosive, and that fight is dead.
    Land-slide victory, with no benefit for the losing side at all.
    The moment numbers change, The Defense is penalized hard, for death, on top of every disadvantage there is in this game for being out-numbered at all.

    Is it worth, making your enemy punished, for death, in a game where death is instant, and from a mile away, to unavoidable?
    Do you want people to have actual battles, or just Spam weapons-fire from as far away as possible, with as many vehicles & spam as possible?

    Do not add rewards to Overpop, and punish Death in a game, where DEATH IS LITERALLY EASY.
    • Up x 1
  13. Ketenks

    Look all these arguments apply to the defending side. If they have more people then they have an increased chance to win the defense. And then they turn it into the offensive side when they invade the next territory and the new defenders have to regroup to fight back.

    If you imagine a 30v50 territory as the game is. You just get these choke battles where the numbers don't matter anyway because there are only so many people that can attack this one choke point. So now each side has enough guys to constantly spawn dudes into this choke point and its just meaningless killing for a while until someone breaks the mold, attacks another angle and changes the fight scene. But with unlimited spawns you get cheap tactics and a bunch of guys not playing for the objective. And I think we ought to play to capture territory and control the continent where you have to kill guys to do that. Not, this game is just a box where we kill each other over and over again and there are pretty colors on the map.
  14. adamts01

    I'd much rather have a more realistic game with meaningful kills/deaths. But at this point it would be a pretty heavy shift for a 6 year old game.

    Also, other games pull this off by giving the player more options to out think his opponent. As long as the only way to win a fight is by stacking players on a point in a room, in a base overlooked by HESH with choke points everywhere, I just don't think it could ever work. Maybe in PS3.
    • Up x 1
  15. LordKrelas

    Could you just quote me properly? Then I'd be able to respond properly.

    Defense wise; They're not gonna survive even an equals number fight, the Offense has severe advantages by itself.
    Attacking? That population difference makes it a slaughter.
    As well, it's never the overpop defending against an unpop, being an issue; They win that quick, and swarm the next base.

    If the death matters, this game with One-shot Kills, One-Shot Knives, Tanks, Explosives, and Aircraft, makes it Even WORSE of a K;D hiding chicken exercise.
    As now, they're punished twice, for fighting anything, and not winning that fight hands down.

    With your trick; If there's an actual choke-point, those people needed to break or hold, are punished for not Spamming Maxes or Tanks.
    Or Explosives.

    This game treats death as meaningless, as it allows combat to be more than an exercise of endless Ghost-cap or Over-pop-or-nothing fights.
    As if it punishes you, for Dying, when You can die upon spawning in...
    How brave is everyone going to be?

    Cheap tactics thanks to endless respawn; Meet cheap-tactic of
    Force-Multipler Spam.
    Max Spam.
    Explosive Spam.
    Aircraft AI weaponry.
    Camping the nine hells out of everything.

    These are all now three-times-more-effective & rewarding.
    Sure, you won't get a mass feed of certs, but instead You punish your VICTIMs, of these tactics.
    Right now, the enemy hit by Respawn-cheese, isn't punished on top of having to respawn or replace their tank.

    Making it punishable, to not Cheese or ensure you avoid death, Does not make this game more objective-based.
    As the Objectives in this game: You need to expose yourself to death, to achieve the Objectives.

    The people not playing the objective; They are the ones caring about death.
    It is way too easy to kill someone, and way too advantageous to spam people, if You're punishing people for Deaths.
  16. Ketenks

    I just see it balancing itself out. Everyone gets killed. The offensive team will dwindle in numbers as well. They are being punished for deaths also. Everyone has the same resources at their disposal. Everyone gets the same limitation to spawn, except now for the attacking team, they don't have the added benefit of a spawn room to spawn in but they have to completely rely on sunderers or getting into a vehicle in another region. So the attack will be inherently more limited in troop refreshment.

    You are over thinking it. This thing goes both ways and will balance out to simply create a game where you can no longer stay in a fight forever but have to move to another region and make another fight happen.
  17. adamts01

    Most games with severe penalties for death have a realistic ttk, which is MUCH quicker than Planetside. I prefer the more realistic approach, but I would never say it's "better". Planetside 2 is great for crazy kill streaks and outrageous montage-worthy maneuvers. Games with more severe penalties for death are exiting in an entirely different way. To some it's a "chicken exercise", but to me it's a tense game of wits. Getting eyes on enemy movement, flanking them, baiting them in to an ambush... Planetside 2 is like skipping to the end of a porno, but it misses all the forplay. Maybe that's not a great example because only chicks like the boring part, but you get what I mean. Chess vs dodgeball. Boxing vs Jiu Jitsu.

    Yeah, vehicles and resources would need a rework from the ground up. This would have to be an entirely different game. I spend more time in vehicles than infantry, at least I did before CAI, but I really think this game would be better off without them. There's just no way to properly integrate them in to base fights, absolutely no way. Vehicles should dominate the open fields, and infantry should dominate cqb. This lattice, these bases, and their capture points were just so poorly thought out.
    • Up x 1
  18. LordKrelas

    Everyone gets killed; Everyone killed is punished, by respawn, and your reductions.
    The Offense Team, has easier access to Vehicles; Has more possible locations to be, or to attack from.
    The Offense Team, has easier access to most numerous spawn points, and directions of travel.
    The Defensive Team has more limited positions.

    if Deaths matter; You know those people who don't play the objective?
    Those, are the ones who will be avoiding death most.
    Those that play the objective, They die the most, for the least personnel benefit.

    Already the Best strat is to Zerg the enemy.
    Now if your zerg kills the Defenders, They are punished twice over; Making it even more effective.
    As death is less likely in a swarm - The Attacking Team, has Sunderer units.
    Now if have more people, that's typically meaning more Sunderers.

    The Defense, Can not reliably deploy Sunderers; Any they do, are entirely exposed to exterior fire.
    This is the zone the Enemy has control over, not the Defense.
    The Spawn-Room, in any base, is the least defensible position for the Defenders, and the easiest to attack.

    Quite a few, even have places outside the entire base, where they can be shelled with impunity.

    Add in Aircraft, which are typically rapid-killers, that do not go down easily, and will visit & farm \ massacre people map-wide.
    Now you have people who couldn't do anything but Not play, to avoid punishment.

    I like adam's post.
    Which I didn't see till after I posted this.

    The longer fights, aren't something to burn away, so that the first 5 seconds determines a Loss or Victory, by sheer amount of AOE or Tanks used by one side.
  19. Ketenks

    You're trying to take it to the extreme here but I never said how limited the spawns would be. I did mention that at every territory capture or defense, the respawn limits would reset. So as long as people are capturing points and doing the objective then the fight will dwindle down. But if the team makes a defense then the fight starts all over again.

    Everyone has access to the same equipment. Everything your saying applies right now. People are doing everything you're saying right now. The only real difference is quicker captures, hopefully increased capture, control and defend cert gain, and choke point battles that matter.

    You can easily increase the spawn punishment while being in a MAX or vehicle. You can make it balanced. But then you will have the advantages and none of the downsides.
  20. adamts01

    Our continents are huge, but meaningful battle space is incredibly limited. Any restriction of spawn ability in such a confined space means that either the attacker or defender would immediately be at the opponent's spawn point for a camp. The more generous the flow of troops, the more gradual the front will shift. The more restrictive the spawn system, the quicker the fight is decided.

    With our current bases, lattice, and capture mechanics, all this would accomplish is more quickly ending a fight (I fail to see how this is good), and more heavily promote redeploy tactics (I also fail to see how this is a good thing).

    That said, I do want more meaningful kills/deaths, but you can't address that without at the same time addressing the lattice system, base design, capture points, and fundamental vehicle/infantry balance.

    First and foremost, I think the lattice system needs to be redesigned and reseployside needs to go. Then spawn limitations could be looked at. The Hybrid Hex is my favorite solution to date.
    • Up x 1

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