[Suggestion] So I had a interesting idea to transform Engineers into Combat Engineers.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Gustavo M, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. Luicanus

    Combat effectiveness is extremely closely tied to awareness on the battlefield, being the one to shoot first is the most decisive part of combat. So I strongly disagree with you regarding the mines and spitfire. If I get a clue as to where the enemy is coming from I can typically estimate their future location and ambush them.

    Just earlier today someone ducked out of sight from my spitfire and I caught them reloading with my shotgun where they went to ground. It was pretty darn effective if you ask me, I'd have never known I was being flanked otherwise.

    But since you do clarify that you want something that boosts your survivability I bring you back to the MANA turret and where I said that with the correct implants you were difficult to shift. Specifically, Jockey 4/5 and Robo Tech 5 grant you +50% shields and -25% damage received respectively while mounted to the MANA, Robo Tech 5 also heals any damage you do take and does so even while under fire.

    You can equip Hardlight Barrier instead of mines/C4 and MANA in its slot allowing you to set up in mere seconds, you'll have 750 Shield recharging 2 seconds faster than non-Engis and 500HP regening at 25 HP per second. The MANA shield and Hardlight barrier mean that short of precise fire you'll not even be taking damage and regarding precise fire a Sniper headshot leaves you alive in half health.

    Now would you care to explain why that is not combat effective enough for you?

    Whereas now it seems like an imitation of the Heavy's ability. Except harder to use because you have to lose all your shield first to get the most out of it.

    You're right, it's not game-breaking, it's just pointless. As I said the Heavy's overshield is preferable for what you describe or a medic with Carapace, there's no gap it's filling it's just creating a new quasi-class.
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  2. Gustavo M

    It's quite funny how you contradict yourself. I mean, you said that you need to set up traps in order to ambush your target. (Which I already said that has nothing to do with combat effectiveness.) to end up with "...and setting up traps is being combat effective."No, it is not. It's like saying a warrior can be combat effective (i.e something that increases his/her chance to down his target while engaging it) if s/he kills his targets wife before combat. It's a fallacy -- it doesn't make sense.
    Yeah, and by following your logic... medics self-heal is also a imitation of the HA overshield. So, eh... you want to remove medics out of the game because of it?
    If I suggest something effective... people will say that it's OP, unfair and will break the game.
    If I suggest something that is balanced and fitting with the current game pace... people will say that it's pointless.
    So, eh... *shrug
    Even with that... I do agree it's useless... if you aren't fast enough to tap back to cover to activate the ability.

    tl;dr: Try cherry picking harder.
  3. FateJH

    I also realize now in re-reading that I wrote "expectorant" and I can only blame my cough.
  4. Luicanus

    You realize this isn't real life right? it doesn't take 5-10 minutes to lay a mine, you can run through a door and drop a mine by it in seconds. And what would you know point rooms have at least 2 doors, so if you run through one and are covering the other (typically closer to the spawn room) if you have a mine behind you you're protecting yourself from being flanked.

    Similarly, throwing up a spitfire off to one flank as you cover a different angle is trivial to do and takes seconds.

    You have a very narrow view of combat effectiveness. In point of fact, your idea is extremely ineffective, you sacrifice the engineers signature tools for a harder to use shield ability.

    Speaking of fallacies, the whole killing your opponents loved one to gain an upper hand would be more like trying to diminish their combat effectiveness than boost your own. Using tools to alert yourself is NOT the same as striking at your opponent's morale. As I say, one is to enhance your awareness of where your opponent may strike from the other is striking the opponent indirectly.

    There are some similarities, however, the medic's ability isn't about preventing you from taking damage but rather healing you and others after the damage is taken. It's worthless when you're taking shield damage.
    What you've proposed is a shield buff that only starts to become useful after you've started taking health damage but won't actually heal that damage. which is exactly the same as a heavy raising their shield late.
    And if you have to duck into cover to use it how is it any different to a normal shield recharge? The engi already gets it faster remember.

    Of course, some people will whine if something good is suggested, but no, I'm not such a person. I've argued for a more powerful OS and for Glaives and Flails to be able to shoot into bases. The point as I see it is to make something not just good but really valuable then balance it with drawbacks and/or limitations to it's use, as you appear to concede, this idea just isn't that good to begin with.

    An example, while I supported making OS stronger I balanced the suggestion by making it require at least 3 players to cooperate to build it. So you wouldn't get solo apes spamming it. Another chap (LordKrelas if I recall) chipped in with a disruption effect that would prevent 2 OS shots hitting the same general area too quickly as the disruption would take several minutes to dissipate. As it is OS popularity died off a bit after the nerf because you rarely get more than a few kills since everyone takes shelter.
  5. Gustavo M

    I see where this is going, so... might as well move on and add another ideas for new Engy abilities.
    • A portable infantry terminal (Does not increase the engy's combat effectiveness, but hey... I'd trade my ammo pack for it.)
    • Something like HA overshield -- but instead of reducing damage, it -reflects- damage. Think "sparkling shield thing surrounding the engy".
    • PS1 used to have AV bullets -- so why not bring em back and make em a exclusive feature to engineers?
    • (Oh my, this is gonna get me a few "naughty" replies, but here we go.) Bring back The thumper. Yes, it's a grenade launcher, something that most of the community hates and despises. And most folks seems to be okay with nukes oneshotting everything... hmmm.
    Oh, and before someone freaks out... yeap, previous rules still apply: engy loses his toys in exchange for one of those mentioned examples, etcetc.
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  6. JobiWan

    I had a blast the last few nights, I made an engi build purely for combat.

    Uppercut (ASP secondary)
    C4 or claymores depending on fight
    Hardlight barrier

    It's the most fun I've had for ages. I do think engineers are often overlooked as combat infantry but I had the perfect blend of long-mid range and short range, deployable cover and fast shield recharging.

    I've never been great at playing HA, the LMGs are just too bouncy and I was pretty effective in a purely combat role. My main reason for this was to farm supply ribbons but ended up having a lot of fun killing Planetmans.
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  7. OldMaster80

    Fun, I've always considered myself a Combat Engineer. I do not try to fight face to face with HA and Maxes, I've always considered this class to require an extra effort and some smart thinking, and that's why I like it: any monkey can use the shield a get kills using a LMG.
    But placing the turret in a smart way, flanking, picking up the right weapons... This really makes a difference.

    How do you use the barrier effectively? I really cannot find a strategy to make the garbage shine.
  8. Luicanus

    Personally, I wouldn't make the engi lose all their perks for these. Although I see the Thumper as more of an option to sub for the Launcher or the LAs Rocklet rifle.

    You could have the terminal simply be an option for the MANA slot, although I'm more of a fan of putting such a terminal on a Flash which is made deployable.

    If I recall correctly there was a shield comparable to what you suggest in Borderlands 2, except in that game it was only effective against melee attacks and the effect was always active. A Spike Shield I think they called it. It might be an interesting option, an ability that when active returns a percentage of damage taken to the attacker.

    Although as I think on it this might yet be better done as a variant of the Heavy's overshield, a version that starts like the Resist Shield only preventing around ~35% damage, but rather than not being drained by weapons fire, it is drained [maybe at a reduced rate compared to Nanomesh] but transfers maybe 50-100% of the mitigated damage back to the attacker. This could be further balanced by requiring the attacker to be within 10-15m in order to be affected.

    Honestly, I like your ideas, but for the most part the notion of stripping the Engi of everything that makes an Engi an Engineer means you'd be as well just giving it to another class.

    This would all be simpler if there were no classes and people could build their character as they pleased like in PS1.

    Also, I think the NC does have AV rounds, on the GODsaw as I recall. I've argued in the past that the Heavy Weapons like the Chaingun and Lasher should do some AV to balance that but meh.
  9. Luicanus

    I can say with confidence you've been using it wrong then it's an incredibly useful tool. I could harp on again about using it in conjunction with MANA turret to become a tanky little strongpoint but in moving combat it works too.

    It works best placed at the top of a stairwell where the enemy is needing to push up to you.

    Now it doesn't exactly make it harder to get shot, if you poke your head over it to shoot you're libal to get shot back but it presents a line in the sand and acts to coordinate noobs around it.

    They see the barrier and largely stick to its line not pushing too far beyond it to the killzone where they'd usually get cut down. Additionally, where it's placed in a doorway (especially at the tops of staircases) it can be hard or impossible to jump over delaying or halting the advancing enemies.

    I found a sweet spot on the lowest staircases of a tower base where it essentially blocks the entire path up. the only way past is to jump on the railings and crouch past it. Unfortunately the nature of a tower being what it is any defensive hold there is liable to be flanked by LAs from the outside or gutted by a HESH tank driving through the centre.
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