Skynight Bushido Nonsense

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by JohnGalt36, Dec 30, 2015.

  1. St0mpy

    Seeing air chavs promote this argument always annoys me, but its funny in the same kind of way. Its like a whole wall of psychological propaganda designed to deter pilots from using them at any level whilst reinforcing their own biases that there is only one correct way to skyknight.

    Its 'beware the modern day leprosy, using lockons means youll always be a bad pilot, you'll never learn a thing, be mocked, even your own side will TK you, shun you, youll be outcast from squads, nobody will come to support, turning their back on you, once they have...LOCKONS!' :D
    • Up x 2
  2. Goretzu

    The game isn't war, but equally it is not a school either, people aren't here to "learn" even if they hate it (as unlike school people aren't legally mandated to play PS2, so they just quit).

    Fun is fun, PS2s Air game is NOT fun for newbies at all, it is the exact opposite. It can become fun once they breach the awkwardness wall, but then that (again) is the whole point of A2A lock-ons.

    Lock-ons are what they are.

    What exactly would you replace them with?

    G2A - they barely kill any remotely decent pilot, but they work reasonably well as a deterent (which is what they are designed to be).

    G2G - they are actually relatively weak (compared to say Lancers), but that's most due to the later flight changes which were almost entirely to do with Air.

    A2A - they do their job of allowing newer pilots some hope of killing someone (which again is what they are designed to do).

    I very much doubt anyone ever has been lolpodded and gone "Oh wow! Now that was FUN!!!", but that is life in an MMO game.
  3. Goretzu

    I've seen this arguement a lot in PvP games over the years, it is never actually true.

    The reality is IF you were genuinely concerned about "enjoying the challange" you wouldn't have the slightest problem with A2A missiles as you would "enjoy the challenge" (because, as you say, it is not like A2A missiles are currently exactly an "I win" button at all - if it was a genuine clear-cut balance issue it would be different).

    But the hard truth is you just don't like dying in that manner (and all the passive agressive nonsense about feeling sorry for people cannot disguise that reality)......... it is PvP, you die, get over it..... even Skyknights die sometimes and will die to things other than fellow Skyknights (because this isn't Skyknight Online).

    The reality is IF they were to bring in a specialised A2A fighter (as they did with the Wasp in PS1) it would be the "Skyknights" who would complain the loudest if it didn't conform to the current awkwardness wall model, not the newbies, not the "peasants", nor the "rubbish lock-on players" there apparently to be pitied and looked down on from a postions of self-declared superiority, nor even the great pilots that did genuinely want a "challenge" (and more importantly a much more expanded A2A game).

    And it really is a good idea to get over it, because ALL games end, and your achievements (real or imagined) will just be memories.
    • Up x 4
  4. Zombo

    So what you are saying is: Good pilots can counter A2A lockons, and you want to test your skill in ESFs, but you don't want to get as good as "good pilots who can overcome an A2A missile attack"?


    Basically you are saying that you are good with using the nosegun, but don't want the enemy to have A2A missiles because you aren't good enough to counter them

    Also i guess it never occured to you that when using flares alone, you are basically at an automatic advantage over the enemy using A2A? because you still can use your Fuel tanks or lolpods or hornets or whatever you have in the secondary slot

    sure, the enemy might have fire suppression, but since he is an unskilled noob using lockons, your skill should be good enough to kill him regardless, shouldn't it?

    the real problem you have is with people that are equally or more skilled than you AND using lockons with fire supression, and you are to proud/stupid to flee when you are outgunned

    tldr: flares counter lockons, get good enough to fight without fire supression
  5. AZAN

    They don't really counter them, at best they give you 5 extra seconds to try to get to the guy locking you up. If you cannot turn and immediately go in hard into a duel with them, you lose. You cannot run away from someone with lockons, even with flares, you only have a chance if you are within a few seconds of getting to some hard cover like a biolab or you are at the flight ceiling (which seems to screw the missiles up for some reason).

    I don't have an issue with them in general but the counters to them are pretty poor. I think part of the reason it's not noted more that they are a crap weapon mechanic is this whole skynight nonsense, which highlights precisely how silly it is. If top level AA players were constantly using lock ons, they would be nerfed hard or the counters buffed hard, the fact that they have been used a lot less for honour(?) reasons has let them remain unchanged.

    Ironic really.
  6. Zombo

    op? not really, they have way less DPS than the noseguns, they aim easier, and potentially lose their alpha if the enemy has flares, plus you can't equip fueltanks

    if you see someone using A2A, just pop flares, turn around, and force them to a turn fight in close quarters and shrek them

    of course you can't win head-to-head if you allready got hit and lost half your health due to having fire suppression, then your enemy can just as well snipe you with their nosegun and A2A additionally, but if he just used the nosegun instead of locking you from behind, you'd be dead just as well, and way faster too
  7. Towie

    I don't fly often (thanks to the whacky controls) - but I honestly can't believe what i'm reading in this thread.

    TK for A2A lockons - others supporting it - have people gone mad ?

    There has always been OP stuff in Planetside and it's frustrating as hell to fight against it but TKing someone for using a valid weapon in a non-exploitative way, geez, that's bonkers.

    I mean - imagine if all Gatekeeper users were TK'd - there wouldn't be any TR left !!!
    • Up x 5
  8. AZAN

    I never said they were OP, I said the counters were poor. I quote your previous post:

    You cannot run when you have flares, your only option is fighting, which is suicide for new players or for veterans when facing off against multiple esfs or when they are over ground AA. If the only 'counter' is a rubbish quick time event that gives you a matter of seconds before its useless, is that really a counter?

    The counter seems to be to turn and fight, to use the nosegun. That in itself has a requirement that you be engaged in a gentlemans duel, so as I said, it's pretty poor.
  9. WeRelic

    Thing is, every game does teach you something. If it's done properly, a well designed mechanic both teaches and helps players improve, and it does so without the player ever noticing. Sure, we may not be learning calculus from CoD, but even there you're learning or training something, most notably muscle memory and pattern recognition. Pick any game, and I'd bet that something could be learned from it. Every human brain loves learning, it's quite literally the way we're wired. The same people that "hate" learning mostly hate learning in a regulated environment, which is understandable. No one hates learning, if they did, they'd be drooling in a corner somewhere, never having learned how to use a keyboard, nor how to speak.

    It's not fun for them because there are pilots that are better than them, using the exact same tool that is supposed to help the newbies against them. That is increasing the skill gap, and making the situation even worse, despite being an equalizer on paper. Being cynical about it and saying "Meh, it is what it is" is just as bad as being an "ace" that preys on lower skill pilots. My problem isn't with the weapon in a vacuum, my problem is with the weapon in it's actual usage, which is in numbers, usually by already skilled pilots, usually targeting the same aircraft which is usually a lower tier pilot.

    As for how to change them? I don't have the perfect answer. If I did, I'd post it. My best guess would be rank or k/d locking the weapon, which isn't ideal for dozens of reasons. It's not my job to figure it out though, it is my job as a player to call ******** when I see it. The game is still in development, despite the weekly "Ded gaem" posts, so speaking up isn't a bad idea.

    The issue isn't that they're not a challenge, the issue is that everyone keeps lauding them as some great equalizing factor, which sounds great on paper, until you realize that the higher tier pilots use locks more than newbies, more effectively, and are usually targeting newbies with them. Add in the fact that they don't actually help players improve which is the idea behind them in the first place, and I'd call that a balance issue. Some equalizer. :rolleyes:

    As for the last sentence, you might want to take some meds or see someone. That's an extremely bleak outlook. While it may be true, it shouldn't dissuade you from trying to improve the game you play. Who knows, maybe PS2 will last another 20 years. Trying isn't pointless, giving up before you try is.
  10. WeRelic

    Actually, I think the TTK is lower when using a single lockon, then swapping to a primary.

    I'd have to do some testing to confirm, but I'm pretty sure thats the reality.
  11. Zombo

    that was not the point, someone was saying "flares are useless because the second A2A missile will hit you anyway"
    if you let them go through a 5 second reload cycle to get a second missile shot at you, you would have been just as dead as if the guy shot with his nosegun only

    so imagine someone is tailing you with and without A2A:

    1 A2A) A2A starts closing in to get into lockon range
    1 nose) nosegun guy (depending on the gun) can start firing immediately or needs to close in with the rotary

    2 A2A) Lock and fire, switch to nosegun, missile gets deflected due to flare
    2 nose) nosegun guy allready severely damaged you or starts firing with his high-dps-gun

    depending on the nosegun, and equipped upgrade for the A2A missiles, the lockon guy might even need to close in asmuch as the rotary gun guy, or if fitted for lockon range, has a two second lockon, so flares being useless against A2A is BS either way

    and since there is no real reason NOT to use stealth, this scenario is pretty optimal if you use A2A, normaly it's way faster to just close in and use the rotary, but not as easy

    the problem here of course is all the pseudo-skyknights that want to keep their allround loadout and still be able to counter dedicated anti-air ESFs, because with fire supression and composite armor, you wont recover as easily from an A2A missile, certainly not if the Anti-Air ESF has Fire supression as well

    i have a high suspicion many of the anti-lockon crowd are just 24/7 ESF pilots that love to groundpound and get salty when countered by dedicated anti-air
    • Up x 1
  12. Goretzu

    Maybe if people are a newbies or young, but the longer you live and the more you play the more you understand there really is nothing new under the sun.

    And if you're talking about reflexes and hand/eye coordination etc., most games now are plain easy-mode compared to their 8bit and 16bit ancestors.

    That IS the PS2 "awkwardness wall" in a nutshell, it is basically like somehow hard-binding ground vehicle controls to W for Right, S for Forward, A for Left and D for Backwards - you'd need to re-learn muscle memory, but there is NO actual "skill" to it just time and repetition and NO actual reason to it other than being different (although the reason may in fact be that SOE couldn't get the engine to work "right" for Air).

    Many things fall into this catagory, learning to do things like write with your wrong hand, quite possible, but hardly ever remotely useful (although if forced in childhood is does give some innate ambidextrity). I could learn to type with my toes, I'm sure, but I'm pretty sure I never will learn to do so or indeed play a game that required me to do so.

    I'm not convinced that is true, I don't think I've ever seen thread from a new pilot complaining about A2A missiles - which isn't to say they won't die from them, but I don't think they are THE or even really A major issue for a new pilot.

    If you're talking about Air platoons, then again that is PS2.

    The most skilled, clever, cunning and careful tanker will insta-die to an Armour Platoon (or Harrasser Squad - or Lib squad for that matter) that just appears over the horizon (or indeed to a lock-on/Lancer squad if you crest a hill and slide down into a valley in their sights). Usually without time to do much other than say "Oh sh[dead]".

    I think the problem there is that people that spend a lot of time in ESFs get very used to the usual high amount of solo power and escape potential they have (basically a good pilot that plays cleverly and conservatively in and ESF should rarely lose one and almost never actually die) and this translates into a sense of outrage when the exact same stuff that happens all the time in other parts of PS2 happens to them (I also suspect this is why the Skyknight point of view tends not to transfer to ground vehicles, as it is more of a free for all most of the time).

    Is it easier to do with Lock-ons, almost certainly, but equally I don't think that is a reason for removing them (any more than it is for removing AP rounds).

    Which unfortunately leaves us in the same position as Democracy; absolutely the worst option for Government....... except for all the rest.

    4602 - NC Tomcat A2AM Pods | Q4 KPU | Daily Average: 2.45
    4602 - NC Tomcat A2AM Pods | Q3 KPU | Daily Average: 2.14
    4602 - NC Tomcat A2AM Pods | Q2 KPU | Daily Average: 1.96
    4602 - NC Tomcat A2AM Pods | Q1 KPU | Daily Average: 1.83

    Not a perfect way to compare them (we don't really have access to that), but I'd say they definately look pretty newbie friendly to me.

    4600 - M20 Mustang | Q4 KPU | Daily Average: 6.48
    4600 - M20 Mustang | Q1 KPU | Daily Average: 2.94

    Why would I want medication to try to change reality? Understanding that it doesn't last, doesn't make doing something worthless, some might argue it does the opposite, but equally it will be gone sooner (in case of MMOs) or later.

    In fact I'd say it should encourage people to accept the challange of A2A missiles, not fear them.

    Wisdom is the acceptance of things we cannot change. :) (or as Yoda might say: there is no try, only do or not do..... but either way in 1000 years no one will remember or care, including yourself)
  13. AZAN

    @Zombo, Ok, you need to READ what I am writing and stop paraphrasing me.

    You specifically mentioned FLARES as a COUNTER, they aren't. You yourself in your earlier post mentioned that the counter was to TURN AND FIGHT. You also specified that you could flare and run, which you don't seem to be suggesting now, so I assume you mistyped since that's completely wrong.

    Flares give you an edge in dealing with the problem, they do no more than that, they are not a counter. I have only mentioned that flares could do with an improvement to deal with ATA, since if you cannot turn and engage for whatever reason then they are indeed USELESS.

    EDIT: To expand though, they are a counter against GTA lock ons, since you tend to only need a few seconds in most cases to get out of line of sight. They tend to be inferior to fire suppression though, since the latter helps heal through all types of damage including flak while the former only protects you against lock ons. So it would be nice if flares were much better than fire suppression for dealing with ATA since that would make them a genuine alternative to help give other means of dealing with ATA lockons aside from the forced brutal death match.
  14. Abraham with Cheese

    That is entirely why I would use Tomcats. I'm nowhere near good enough to take out enemy air (if I could fly), even with A2A (probably because I'd just get ganked), so I'd likely just focus on ground-pounding ESFs, liberators and galaxies. Suicidal, most likely, but hey, if it meant getting my allies some breathing space, it'd be worth it.

    You know, devoting some air to taking out enemy air isn't a bad thing, even if they use A2A, especially if it's meant to support the ground troops like in real war. However, solely going around, killing enemy air... that is a rarity in reality. Most air engagements are done to cover ground troops or for precise strikes on enemy targets.

    In a world where most of the environment is indestructible, such strikes are pointless, and there's nothing worse than some lone ground pounder going around the map looking for some random, lonely tank to ruin. Seriously, why don't you go help your team instead of stat-padding you self-righteous little snowflake? Or is that all you care about?

    I know many ground pounders that advance with the front and try to take out enemy AV nests and forward sundies and other vehicles. Those guys and gals are okay. It's the solely "shell every single infantry in an overrun base to get those last three kills before it gets captured" mentality that really irks me.
    • Up x 2
  15. Reclaimer77

    If you want the airgame to be accessible to new players, then it's time for a serious discussion on removing the "Reverse Maneuver". A straight up bug that the Skykbights "crybullied" the devs into keeping it in the game. Which has now become an undocumented move that's pretty much the staple of all air combat.

    Now the pilots call it "skill", but it's basically an exploit that was never intended by the Devs for ESF's to behave in that manner.

    New players aren't aware said Reverse Maneuver even exists, much less how to pull it off. They just know they die to other ESF's who can.
    • Up x 1
  16. AZAN

    You're asking for the removal of drift right? The fact that the aircraft when in hover mode can use its momentum to continue moving in one direction while looking in another. I would think it would be much harder to fight an aircraft without that since their movement would be less damped and would be able to make more instant direction and course changes.
  17. Ballto21

    i hope the calpis gang from tokyo zombie breaks down your door and uses their ultimate weapon on you.
    • Up x 1
  18. Jamuro

    Wow ... i mean ... just wow

    Ok first of all ... the game does a **** job explaining anything but the most basic controls of an esf.
    Heck the basic keybindings don't even have throttle stop bound, nor does it inform you about the fact that keyboard pitch up and down will allow you to turn at max turn rate, independent from your mouse sensitivity you use for aiming.

    Now that that's hopefully somewhat clear ... the air community itself actually does an amazing job teaching those "skills".
    There are 100reds of youtube videos and guides out there, going into great detail of how to pull off this oh so op skill.

    The reason every pilot sooner or later has to learn the reverse manouver is not because it's so op, BUT because it's a very good example of what your afterburners can do and how they manipulate your trajectory ... even so far as pushing your backwards, while aiming forward.

    Once you have that ... well the real learning just started.

    Some stuff every pilot that wants to wish to survive an a2a fight has to learn:

    1. side stepping:
    A fast roll to the side with a short booster burn basically ... this usually gets built upon later ...
    When facing a good pilot you generally don't want to just burn sideways ... same for multiple oponents ... i usually add another 90% to the turn (making it a 180 belly flip) burn down first and then rotate to the side i want to go to.

    2. half circle reverse manouver ... or maximising your radial velocity vs your opponent
    You start with a reverse manouver, just abort it a bit before usuall and keep on burning for a bit while aiming at the bottom of your opponent.
    This usually ends up pushing your first slightly backwards and then either up or downwards (depending on belly orientation) in a circular motion around your target.

    This will cost you A LOT of Afterburner ... BUT i usually do this when i see another enemy approaching from the same side i am facing/fighting already.
    This way i tend to end up behind them, with the new guy usually stuck in either a turn or the slowest part of a reverse manouver (bad choice for example in this case ... since it will make you a basically stationary target for me)

    3. ctrl+space
    it's the easier version to the side step basically ... you do this when you have to evade, BUT have a good shot on your opponent.
    Each esf behaves differently here ... and you ll have to find the optimal cycle yourself ... too long and you ll just fly into the bullets, to short and you don't have enough speed to actually evade anything.

    The list goes on ... like how to circle a tank, tower, sundie while maintaining a sideburn in a stable fashion around your target.
    Heck maintaining your height, while aiming at a target below alone tends to get new pilots killed at least a few times.

    The reason the reverse manouver is so popular and has so many tutorials is not only because it's the fastest way to get into hover mode BUT because it showcases what your boosters can do realy well.

    A new pilot needs to train all this stuff ... WHILE TRAINING to keep your aim on target (which means lead to the right spot and not simply aim at the enemy)
    A2A lockons ... well they certainly wont teach you how to lead ... and sadly punish you for each manouver/evade you try to pull off as new pilot ... simply because it will very likley break your lock.

    Add to this the abysmal state of flares ... and the issue that once launched there is nothing an esf pilot can do to evade them (tomcats during an engagement) and i hope the reasons why people dislike them should be a bit more clear.

    It's funny how people complaining about air have a tendency to not even know the most basic manouvers ... they just call everything they see a reverse manouver and think that that's all there is.
  19. JohnGalt36

    "I'm only going to knife people. If people want to use easy mode guns and never learn how to knife, they deserve to get TK'd."

    This is exactly what some of you sound like. Your logic applied to any other situation would be absurd, but since it's skyknight honor codes, it's somehow not?
    • Up x 2
  20. Jamuro

    With the exception of a few trolls ... noone here every claimed that TKing is ok ... but i quess it's easier to just throw everyone in one pot.
    What a few people (myself included) tried to point out in this thread is that the way a2a lockons work is just flawed and detremental.

    As said before ... again and again ... lockons teach a new pilot stuff that will get them killed or at the very least will hinder their progress into the other a2a guns.

    It does not try to teach the new player to lead ... which would be fine, if it allowed them to concentrate on evading ... but even there the lock on mechanic punishes the new guy for trying.

    Basically from a design stand point the only things those missiles teach are that evading and leading are bad things ...

    The next thing is the counter ... flares.
    Flares don't help you in this situation at all ... either you have the time to hunt down the a2a lockon user and engage them in a short range fight (at which point fire sup would have helped you more)

    OR you are already in an engagement vs a pilot and get sniped by them ... in which case flares will prevent 1 HIT ... that's it. (there is room for a bit more but usually you are moving around anyways and maybe shake the lock cycle once every few rockets)

    1 Deflected missile is not enough ... especially if you are fighting another opponent during that time (the only reason why you aren't burning towards the a2a missile user like mad) ... and usually your enemy will have fire sup.
    Which means flares will not only NOT protect you ... they will endanger you in any fight vs an esf with fire sup.

    Last situation would be running away ... here flares give you some time ... BUT while you are running, NOTHING is stopping the a2a missile guy to just stay on your tail.
    Running is problematic in this game ... the more evasive manouvers you do, the less speed you ll get out of your esf ... which is why running in an esf vs esf fight is one of the toughest things to do.
    Long story short ... your stalker will simply follow you and outwait the flare timer.

    Put simply ... a2a lockons hinder the new guys progress and their "COUNTER" is completly unsuited vs a2a lockons (the time window might be enough for a groundpounder to get away from heavies aiming at thim from below BUT is not suitable for esf fights.

    Just to clarify ... because it always comes up.
    No pilot ... no matter how bittervet they are want's to be the only guy in the sky.
    Right now sadly the tools avaliable to new pilots are not only devoid of any fun/engagement, they also have a nasty habit of hindering progress.

    What we would need is a NOSEGUN that's more foregiving when it comes to aim ... but reaches it's maximum dps a lot sooner/easier. (meaning that in the end it shouldn't make a difference if a top ace pilot uses it or a guy that tried mastering it for a week or so)

    Imo a flak mechanic on a nosegun would do that ... require leading, but explode once close enough (the forgiving part) and regulate the maximum dps possible via a cone of fire (meaning it doesn't matter if you are an ace with spot on aim or a newbie ... after a certain point of "aim" is reached ... the cone of fire will prevent abuse and also give the new guy a good indication, when it's time to switch to the big boy guns.)