Shotguns ruined the TTK/Skill required/Close Quarter Combat of Planetside 2..We need higher TTK!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Rustler, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. BlueEyedBuckeye

    I agree with the OP. It's strange that you have sniper rifles which are 2-shot kills unless you get a head shot (necessitating skill) in the same game as shotguns where you can literally kill someone in a fraction of a second running-and-gunning with no aim.
  2. LordMondando

    I'd look at some of thouse examples, as they are powerful counterpoints to your 'Low TTK = Lower Skill Ceiling'. Its certaintly not logically consistent. 'How long I can keep cross-hair on target whilst I click' is not exhaustive of skill. You certainly cannot ignore things like situational awareness in favour of this. Indeed to take a hard example, comparing Arma2 or 3 to Quake 2 area (an archetype for high TTK). Its hard to argue that the skill in either simply reduces to mere gunplay. As you describe it, indeed in quake, it was more about knowing where the powerups were than anything else.

    Also to state one you might be familiar with. The original counter strike.

    furthermore, as I've noted elsewhere, the notion that 'exchanged fire lets skill win out' is a little odd in a game (PS2) that involves battles in which 7/10 you'll never see you killer coming. Simple in virtue of the scale of the battle.

    Utlimately though, it comes down to this, does high TTK and laser tag like gunplay give you an involving game, it appears - no.
  3. Herrick

    Yes, because being able to instantaneously teleport in and out of a vehicle from any angle at any time COULDN'T POSSIBLY impact gameplay against a system where you are limited to only specific entry points and an actual delay. Hell, even if I humor your suggestion why was it taken out anyway, is there a single sound explanation beyond laziness?

    Ohhhh I dunno so that LAs can't jump out and jetpack to safety in ESFs, so heavies can't miraculously appear outside of a smoking vehicle with their shield already running?

    Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize your metagame was already in PS2. Oh wait, it isn't!
  4. maxkeiser

    I don't usually speak up on this sort of thing, but I do think there is a bit of an issue.

    A good way to tell if something is just silly (OP) is if everyone is using it. I've just been playing on Esamir and EVERY SINGLE infantry death was caused by a one-hit shotgun. And in a good proportion of those I had no chance to even react. 1 or 2 were even a mid-range (***?).

    All the heav assaults (apart from me lol?) seem to have shotguns. This is fast turning into shotgun-side - the reason: because people aren't stupid and they know a good/OP thing when they seen one.

    People will ALWAYS use the weapon that kills the quickest in the most OP way. Consequently virtually everyone and his brother is toting a shotgun.

    It's laughable.
  5. LordMondando

    this just strikes me as a bit obsessive, even milsim's like arma are fairly forgiving in this respect. Whats the issue at this point? If we had to press E over the tanks hatch and there was a getting in model, game betterer?

    Yet given the obvious and significant advantage of running engi if your using a vehicle, it happens to rarely its barely even worth mentioning.

  6. ladiesop

    No need to be so caustic.

    In PS2, TTKs are longer than the CoD and Battlefield games.

    'Tactical' games like Red Orchestra have even shorter TTKs than this one, and people drop very quickly.

    Long TTK games are traditionally TDM arena shooters of yesteryear, that require even more twitch skill.

    The TTK is not necessarily a symptom of the 'dumbing down'. The missing metagame and logistic systems are separate issues and could be present in a low TTK game or a high TTK game. I would love to have an awesome map screen like in PS1, and for it to have those systems but I don't think I would enjoy it as much if the TTK were on average much longer or shorter.
    • Up x 1
  7. MurderBunneh

    They are OP in any base engagement where you need to take a point. We kept running into this last night you would have to send 4 non shotgun users to take out 1 running hopping PAS user. People are really getting tired of being 1 shotted by shotguns.
    I'm not talking about forum whiners I'm talking about regular Joes. These WILL be nerfed once there is a critical mass of buyers. Meaning once 90% of all base captures are being fought with shotguns, and I can say that last night while trying to take tech plants and amp stations about 50% of my deaths were to shotguns.
  8. MurderBunneh

    The difference is in RO it is more then 1 gun able to one shot.
    The choice is bring a PAS to a capture point or take the chance of being 1 shotted and no amount of tactical thing can get around that. If it is equal numbers both sides inside any base the side with the most PAS wins that capture point. And if you are unlucky that the guy wielding the PAS is a high br good player forget about it.
  9. maxkeiser

    It's like this now. I've only died to shotguns all day.
  10. Herrick

    You asked me what the relevance was, I told you why. If you didn't want an answer to the question then don't ask it in the first place. And besides do you not think some sort of restriction for entering and exiting vehicles on the fly might make a little bit of difference in combat? Might make getting in and out more of a tactical decision of you could get shot and killed mid animation?

    This isn't rocket science.

    The repair gun in PS1 is was also MUCH slower, had ammo constraints and took up valuable space in your inventory. Here an engineer is just as much of a fighting force with or without the tank. But once again I'm repeating stuff mentioned in god knows how many prior posts.

    That's not what I said. Simply put, I could actually live with a nerf. Thing is I paid 14 bucks for my two shotties. Just like prolly thousands of other players dropped money on a shotgun. We want and we deserve is a reasonable compromise. That's all I wanted to say.
  12. Herrick

    Because the same has been afforded to everyone else who has bought weapons only to have them nerfed, right?
  13. ladiesop

    Maybe they're [pump actions] not near the critical mass on the server I play on mostly as they do on yours or some others, so there could be a problem there.

    Were people complaining about the three ordinary shotguns before the Pumps were put in? I see a lot of the older guide threads with comments like:
    Maybe the OHKO of the pump is too much, since there weren't this mass of threads before with the old quarter second TTK shotguns. Maybe the pump is too short? I found it pumping quite quickly compared with the pump actions in Bad Company 2, for example (which is one of the other few ''modern' style shooters where shotguns aren't useless).

    Perhaps I don't play an environment/server where shotguns are that common, perhaps. The times I'm killed by shotguns is a rarity compared with most other weapon types.
  14. Herrick

    Well here is another little facet.

    The average human reaction time is around 215ms (google it if you don't believe me).

    Now let us add around 100ms lag because not all of us can live 6 feet from the servers.

    What was the TTK of crutch-action shotguns again?
    • Up x 1
  15. MurderBunneh

    With the addition of the PAS there are just too many shotguns in the game IMO. But I guess from what I can see the devs are big fans of shotguns. There is still a "scatter pistol" to be released so have no fear even if you don't want a shotgun as your main weapon you can still have one as a sidearm soon.
  16. Warlyik

    Games that try to represent combat in a realistic light are typically unpopular for a reason. Realism is not fun. The real military world isn't about fun. Games are.

    Why would I spend my time playing a game that tries to mimic RL? Unless I was a vet trying to relive my golden days, I don't think I have any reason to. Because it's not fun. It's not enjoyable. It's not satisfying. Single-player, maybe. Multi-Player? Nope.

    Moreover, I never said that the only thing that matters is aim, contrary to what you're suggesting I've said. I'm saying that the combat mechanics of exchanged fire are taking a back seat to everything else. We aren't getting what could be a much fuller atmosphere. A more enjoyable, satisfying experience.

    I don't see how anyone could get satisfaction from a game that constantly spits out results from battle that are nothing more than one person firing at another, with the other person unable to react and exchange fire in kind. You might as well be playing a single-player game, because you're suggesting that less interaction is better.

    CS probably has a higher overall TTK than this game does. Moreover, it's balanced from many different perspectives. The guns are balanced, the maps are balanced, the two sides are balanced. You're never dealing with overwhelming numbers because the match starts with (assuming a full server) even teams, and everyone starts off on the same footing (the same cash reserves to purchase equipment).

    That same kind of balance simply does not exist in PS2. So, having a higher TTK would also prove to be far more inviting for new players. And every game needs new blood as those who have grown bored of it move on. I don't see how any new player is encouraged to actually participate in a game like how PS2 is now when they're facing astronomical disadvantages. They don't have certs, the best weapons have to be purchased, and they're constantly met with the realization that actual combat is largely an afterthought. It's intensely unsatisfying to be killed left and right without a chance to react.

    This line of reasoning doesn't follow any logic. Having the element of surprise doesn't suddenly exclude exchanged fire and reactions - assuming that the TTK is high enough to allow it. Your entire point seems to stem from this desire to have all actions BEFORE combat matter more than the actual combat. So, you don't want your target to react and possibly save themselves by maneuvering behind an object or simply getting out of LoS or effective range. You want them to be target dummies. In other words, the exchange of information between you and the target ends the moment you get the drop on them. You don't want there to be an exchange during fire.

    To me, that's anathema to the idea of what an FPS is. You're putting the entire emphasis on everything that occurs before combat, thus, like I said, reducing the size and complexity, the breadth of events that occur during combat. It'd be like me saying that we should have a game where everything that happens before combat doesn't matter. What we need is a good combination of both.
    • Up x 1
  17. talmaru

    I feel bad for everybody <including myself> who bought the old model shotguns that take 3 shots to kill even @ point blank
    Painfully obvious Pay 2 Win move SOE <slow clap>
  18. LordMondando

    Two things.

    1) That there fun or not has nothing to do with a counter example to your point of low ttk = low skill cealing, to which they are counter examples.
    2) Actually the way you presented it (very scantly) exchanged fire seemed to do little more than reduce down to how well you'd trained your motor-neural system to 'aim in fps games'.

    It doesn't and it wasun't at launch.

    wait, why are we talking about balance now, your argument is all over the shop.

    Again several things here.

    1) Given how much your argument is jumping around, specifically in the fallacious manner of Ignoratio elenchi (namely your introduce premises that try to move the argument to safer ground for you, but do not engage with the hinge proposition, namely whether or not low ttk = lower skill) I don't think your entitled to keep claiming your argument is more logical than mine.
    2) I reject the distinction presented here between 'before' and 'during' combat. Why is being aware and manuvering throughout your enviroment during a fight some how more legitmate and indicative of skill than before. Furthermore, positioning and situational awareness is either there and in play all of the time or its not.

    Indeed the crux of it might as well be this, if low ttk = low skill (and don't try and shift it to 'fun' this is what we are talking about). you might as well say all actual trained soilders have no skill if they shoot an enemy.
  19. Swiftstrike

    Wait. CQC required skill before? I didn't realize hip fire hero battles that were based on random deviation and favored that faction weapons with higher ROF, larger clip size, and better COF were skill based.
    • Up x 1
  20. smokemaker

    TTK is fine.
    I vote no change.
    Love the shotties
    Love 1 hit kill mechanics

    Bought every shotgun and all three launchers
    Thank you SOE, make more and I will buy them too.