Shotguns ruined the TTK/Skill required/Close Quarter Combat of Planetside 2..We need higher TTK!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Rustler, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. Eugenitor

    It wouldn't be so bad if the lag and poor latency compensation didn't have too many people jerking around like Vanellope von Schweetz.
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  2. Urban Cohort

    Well, you aren't far off in this assessment, but I sincerely wish them luck if they actually think that's all there is to it.
  3. Rustcan

    The Pump Action Shotguns' OHOK mechanics have taken over all CQ combat, likely beyond what they were intended. PS2's TTK is too short as it is, but prior to the introduction of the Original Shotguns, SMGs, and now PA shotties, there still existed some semblance of tactical shootouts at all ranges (ie, utilizing cover, proper medic healing, etc..).

    This has changed. The cumulative UnFun resulting from all OHOK sources in PS2 is irritating enough, but now, with the proliferation of PA shotties, it's too much. Obviously, the PA's won't be removed, so they need to have more severe tradeoffs for their power:

    - Increase the delay (Pump Time) between individual shots
    - Increase the Pellet Spread so as to further emphasize it as an extremely CQ weapon

    Perhaps not both, but PA's just fire too fast and hit from too far away consistently -- hence why indoor combat is utterly dominated by them.
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  4. Gavyne

    I'm a 96% infantry player, you would think I'd love those 1-hit shotguns, but I don't. I think they're cheese. They should take 2 shots to kill, not one. Both the new SMG's and pump action shotguns have lowered the TTK in this game drastically, when the TTK was just about right in this game a couple of months ago. It wasn't as low as CoD, but it wasn't high, and it felt right. Now infantry battles start and end a bit too fast.

    There are not enough situations where infantry get to fight at medium range without getting bombarded by vehicles, turrets, and air pods. In Battlefield games, you have urban warfare maps with long streets where you could have standoffs at intersections. You actually have lots of medium range fights, along with close quarter combat. The problem with this game and the base & terrain designs, is that we are either in very tight close quarters, or we are in wide open to get HE shelled on. There's very little in between, and the in between is often the sweet spot in FPS games. See Dust2 in CS:S, majority of the maps in BF:BC2 & BF3, etc..

    I feel SOE are shooting themselves in the foot by adding all these new weapons that just end up throwing the balance offwhack in this game. See the lock-on rocket launchers that eventually got nerfed, this game didn't need lock-on rocket launchers. See the new empire specific launchers, while I'm having fun with them, they just don't make sense and a bit too powerful. See the new SMG's and pump action shotguns, both reduced TTK in this game by at least half of what it used to be prior to those weapons being introduced.

    Anyways I can understand being 1-shot if I'm shot in the face with it. But some people have really bad aim, you can tell too, but they're still able to 1-shot kill in CQC without aiming for the head. I think a bump in class HP across the board is in order to keep the sanity. If they do that they wouldn't have to nerf any weapons. I don't like high TTK in FPS games, but I did like the TTK we had prior to SMG's and pump action shotguns were introduced.
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  5. SinerAthin

    It is of course not the only factor.

    If every weapon had been OHOK, Shotguns wouldn't be OP because a quick shot from an Assault Rifle would have the same effect.

    If most infantry battles had been fought at 100-400 yards, Shotguns wouldn't have been a problem.

    It is the combined facts that other weapons have too high TTK(in comparison), and that the vast majority of infantry battles are fought at short ranges(Biolabs, amp stations), the speed of the player is too high(eternal sprint, jetpacks, no encumberance) and the design of the maps that all culminate into making this a problem.
  6. ladiesop

    The shotgun user's target can is much faster moving if they actually move (relatively, the closer you are the faster the apparent movement). It's easy to target people who aren't moving, like those standing in corners and aiming down a corridor or out of a window. The target is larger, but the shotgun user, if the enemy is aware is also at much more risk.

    It takes longer and may be more 'difficult' to lead an LMG or hit the heads when sniping, but when they are aware of you it's much easier to slink away and save your bacon. Also, like with shotguns, still targets are easier to kill.

    Shotguns are a high-risk, high reward weapon for CQC. In comparison, other CQC weapons like SMGs (at least the 50+ magazine ones) are easier to use in CQC, and work at longer ranges but are less effective than shotguns in CQC.
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  7. Warlyik


    We do.

    TTK is not absolutely okay.

    This is a semi-futuristic shooter unlike any of those games. And if I'm not mistaken, those games aren't popular. So I'm not even sure what their TTKs are like.

    But yes, I think any game with a Low TTK has a Low Skill Ceiling. This is logically consistent. Low TTK = Low Combat Time. Combat Time = Available Time for Skill. If you reduce Combat Time, you reduce the effective Skill Ceiling.

    Similarly, if we reduced all of PS2 into one room without any barriers - just a flat cubicle, we'd say that movement/positioning/maneuvering were being handicapped and the skill threshold regarding those particular qualities was thus significantly reduced. This is the same thing Low TTK does to Combat. Instead of a huge base full of objectives and objects to use as cover, it's just a small flat room.

    I don't think anyone's explicitly suggesting that skill only has to do with basic hand/eye coordination. Nonetheless, it is a large part of what is considered Skill in a video game (or in most physical activities, for that matter). You can't deny that.

    However, as I stated above, Low TTK = Lower Skill Ceiling because it is specifically reducing the chance that those things matter (reducing the size/complexity of the room). And people who are against raising TTK are against raising the Skill Ceiling. Giving more room (higher TTK) for exchanged fire (combat) to develop should be a net benefit to everyone that actually enjoys what an FPS is supposed to be.

    It's amusing to see the worst players defending the Low TTK. Because these people realize they'd be at a disadvantage if Combat Time was higher.
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  8. Urban Cohort

    Well, in my opinion the shotgun is supposed to lay people out in a single shot - it's a shotgun, that's its business.

    That said, perhaps it should be tweaked to be less forgiving...increase bullet spread to reduce its effective range; get rid of slugs (I know they're a legitimate type of ammunition, but for balancing; slower rate of fire perhaps...1-5m should be an absolute killzone, 5-10m and people should start to worry; 10-15m should be a legitimate engagement distance but nothing spectacular; and outside of that, people should be just laughing at its ineffectiveness.

    I could get behind these kinds of tweaks. But the one-hit-ability at close range should remain...
  9. SinerAthin

    The problem with Shotguns is that they can make -anybody- an instant 'pro'. Their skill requirement is too low for the power it gives.

    My latest post includes a few reasons why Shotguns are such a problem in PS2.
  10. Xind

    They still one shot you under 150m with Nano 5 in my understanding.

    They have no interests in reducing the number of OHKs in the game. And thusly the game is now about OHKs. I've all but put away my LMG/AR/Carbine, for one because I feel like TR has the worst of these weapons and for two because if I encounter an enemy at close/medium range with a Shotgun/SMG I am outclassed.

    Would the game be better without AP MInes, UBGL, Pump Actions, Sniper Head shots, Dumbfire Rockets, and NC AI MAXs? I can't say it would be better, but it would be more fun.
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  11. Herrick

    It doesn't matter how many sound points you make.

    It doesn't matter how much evidence you present with your case.

    It doesn't matter how often we prove the idiots wrong.

    The low TTK will never change, more and more guns and weapons will revolve around 1 hit instagibs imbalanced BS. This is what CoD/BF kiddies want, this is what Smedly wants (since he too is a BF3 fanboy), this is who SOE are marketing to now. They don't care about anyone else, least of all PS1 vets. At this point trying to make anyone see reason is just completely futile.

    Just... I dunno go out peacefully. Let this steaming heap of a game die and be eaten by the maggots that it now caters for.

    Of course I'm not happy about the continued desecration of this game's corpse but what can you do?
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  12. ladiesop

    In most CoD games, shotguns really suck.
  13. LordMondando

    Again equating low TTK to CoD and BF3 is crap.
  14. Herrick

    I'm equating far more than a low TTK to these games. I'm not gonna start repeating myself however, just check any other thread on this subject that I've posted in. Or hell the link in my signature.

    TTK is the most readily apparent but the entire game is simplified and dumbed down almost exclusively for this new market Smedly-kins is chasing.

    Why do we have no logistics system?

    Why are there no enter/exit animations?

    Why is there no suit restrictions on entering/piloting vehicles?

    Why is there no metagame?

    Do you see where I'm going with this? Is it finally penetrating your skull or should I get a hammer?
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    hehe true.

    @ the op:
    from my pov the ttk is about right. I mean how would you balance it to make it more "challenging" to wield a shotgun without making it feel like throwing fluffy plush balls at your opponent and thus rendering it a rather frustrating experience? it's almost impossible to do. the only thing i could think of to at least increase the skill cap would be decreasing the rate of fire and maybe the amount of pellets too, to make missing a shot actually detrimental (that's actually something that should happen anyway in my opinion). What else? faster damage drop off maybe. other than that there's nothing you could do that wouldn't significantly harm the experience/ break the immersion of using a shotgun.

    edit: I could live with it if each of the shotguns would require one more hit for a kill than it currently does up close though
  16. Zorro

    Shotguns seem fine. First of all, they are CQC weapons, terrible at anything else (unless one has slugs, in which case the CQC efficiency drops). In addition, they are not "skill-less crutch weapons." To use them effectively, one has to get positional and tactical superiority to surprise the opponent. Spread may seem like a crutch, but one has to make sure that all the pellets hit, otherwise the enemy will be only wounded and will have time to respond. Missing just once could mean that the shotgun-user loses. Keep in mind that I am terrible at using shotguns in this game and prefer carbines for the margin of error they provide (missing is not too bad, as one just needs to hold down the mouse button and make sure the rest of the bullets hit). He who uses shotguns effectively deserves to win.
  17. LordMondando

    Yes but the notion that a low TTK is 'dumbed down' or that a high ttk somehow involves more skill, im afraid is just vapous.

    And from my sig you'll see the first notions of what I think about that.

    Aesthetic more than anything else.

    why does that matter?

    Again my sig, though I wonder sometimes what people actually mean when they say 'metagame'.

    No need to be a dick.
  18. Urban Cohort

    Hey, don't look down on my "Hopes & Dreams" Shotgun ammunition!
  19. ladiesop

    Those things have little do to with the TTK and shotguns. They would be apparent (or rather, not present) even if TTK were so long that you needed entire magazines to down other players.

    They could also be put in, and the TTK and shotguns remain the same in this game.
  20. Herrick

    Guns can only feel satisfying if they are OHKO machines, is that what you are saying?

    Increasing the TTK would still allow shotguns to be powerful in CQC, they don't need to be one hit wonders for that.

    Although assuming people in planetside wear body armor in addition to energy shields shotguns should feel like they are shooting paper balls at people. Shotguns have rather poor penetration.

    I know that, Einstein, now try reading the post. TTK is one symptom of a much larger problem. This is not a difficult thing to comprehend.
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