Shotguns and OPness.

Well, if you read my reply then you got the answer on that already. The playstyle with shotguns is suicide. You do not get your K/D up with that. You can have a lot of fun and make the important kills(not those kills where you shoot from a mile away and then just have some medic behind a box revive your target. Where the kill does not matter at all.), but you got to deal with dying a lot and running from spawn. You can't brag about your K/D....and you quite often run into a room, kill 2-3 people and then still have to watch them being revived cause the idiots in your team with the LMGs do not follow feed since they do not want to risk their valuable K/D(the result that you often see is the turning push just exactly 5 seconds AFTER the enemy won the point. At that moment people know they got nothing to lose and then they don't have the "you go first, you go second(still too risky)...and I kill the reloading and injured enemies"-mindset anymore cause they know that soon the enemies from spawn gonna shoot them in the back anyway). So it can be a quite frustrating playstyle.
K/D is just crap. Revives should count as deaths...or even better: If the target is revived it should not count as kill on top of it. Then a lot of "impressive" K/Ds by players would suddenly crumble.

Now we first need to know how that script is counting. For example I shoot a LOT of base modules and terminals...do they count as regular kill(I mean, I'm usually on target there...but you can not down them with 2 shots)? How about MAXes? What's about targets that someone else finishes or where you just take the last 10%(usually not me cause I'm the first in a room ;-))? How does it take into account "just shooting around"? In case you didn't notice: I do not care for K/D(that's why my Heavy and sniper rifles are so far behind in directives) or for any other stats. So you find me shooting at buildings or shields or tanks/ESF/Harassers or corners(scanning for infils)...or long range with a shotgun and no slugs...just for the fun of it. So whatever you read into my stats has not much to do with what you deal with when I really want your head... ;-)

Oh at most points SOMEONE has to get in-your-face to capture the point. At least if the dudes at the point are prepared for CQC and not stupid. ;-)
You are not going to get a Scatmax leave a building...

This should absolutely be a thing. Recursion already counts a death as a death, regardless of a revive, but you're 100% right about those pointless kills. That alone would halve the number of spawnroom snipers accomplishing nothing for their faction.

You make me smile, that wasn’t what I ran my shotguns on. I ran it on emerald with ambushers. My main (that you looked at) is what I used when I couldn’t average 20 FPS in a 1-12. If you want I’ll recreate this feat on my main HippoCryties? The account I did it on Emerald is deleted now since I wanted to play with my friend Azeqh but not on my NC account HippoCrytiesNC

He missed 4/6 shots. One of the hits was a glancing hit. In other words, he had terrible aim and he deserved to lose. He might even had been able to get away with that poor aim if it wasn't a HA.

Saying he'd win that engagement with a high ROF weapon is a poor excuse. With the shotgun he was able to rapidly move on from his first target which was dispatched very quickly with zero return fire (which is huge in CQC) and onto the HA. With a carbine (and that level of aim) he'd probably run out of bullets and die. Against the HA he expended 6 shots... and still could have been able to get the third with the remaining two.

To his credit, he does say he screwed up badly there in the description of the video.

That said, it isn't an easy mode weapon you rack up them kills with. With a shotgun you make the conscious decision to imbalance your options and focus on being "OP" at close range. Most of the skill comes from setting up the fight itself. Much like SMGs which is a weapon best suited for infiltrators the shotgun is best suited for the LA/HA. Though whereas a shotgun is acceptable on LA/HA it would be disgustingly powerful on an infiltrator.

A noob-friendly weapon does not equal kill potential, you know. Like I said previously -- the shotgun is a noob-friendly weapon where "****ters" can use it and be on par against a experienced carbine/lmg/smg player. Which does not mean that ****ters will be able to win every encounter because of such;awareness and tracking are still required. Just like with other weapons.

1st you say newbie-friendly weapons doesn't equal kill potential. Then you say shotguns allow poor players to win against better players. Then you say it requires skill to track because they won't win all encounters. Please clarify because you're all over the place.

Looks like you are interpreting "ease of use" as killing potential (shotguns allow poor players to win against better players) -- because that is what I said previously;that shotguns are not op... but "easy to use".

I do in the sense of how you can go from target to target quickly while maintaining a very low TTK thus reducing time/opportunity to retaliate. What I mean by writing "OP" was the design of shotguns you are trading away other ranges for being "OP" at CQC.

So I would agree there is an ease of use aspect to shotguns and I wouldn't say they're OP. However, the ease of use does add to high killing potential. To iterate on the point of SMGs vs shotguns, putting a SMG in the hands of an infiltrator is not controversial anymore but a shotgun would be flat out overpowered. So ease of use + insta-kill/near insta-kill does make shotguns powerful in the right hands (again, LA/HA).

A vet failing so hard as in the example Demigan showed should own up to the fact he failed and not make a half-baked excuse that semi-auto shotguns are hard to use in CQC.

Like using a shotgun over and over again would make (the weapon, stat-wise) stronger. That's a fallacy. A shotgun actually performs worse than every other weapon in CQC -- if you can chain headshot. I mean, just tell a more competent player than me to use a shotgun in one hour and then a LMG in the other one -- at the same location, same occasion. I'm fairly sure s/he will come back to you and say "Hey, LMG's are much better than shotguns in CQC... but you have to get used to headshot constantly."
tl;dr: Ease of use =/= weapon stats (killing potential).

Not even remotely close to what I'm saying but you're obviously passionate about making this point.

If replying to your post with points and explanations makes me passionate and you, with a typical "Nah, you are wrong" comeback is not (which clearly sounds like a low blow attempt to "win" this convo)-- then I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't help you... if you don't let me to.

Stop pretending you're interested in a conversation. For example, you're purposefully misrepresenting me when I say you can easily go from target to target with a shotgun as if I am saying it is on the same level as chaining head shots in CQC. The skill level of hitting players in CQC with a shotgun is considerably lower than chaining head shots in CQC... Which is important in CQC since split second decisions decides who wins and loses. Less effort, no need to ADS in CQC, and instant/double tap kills = a winning combo unless you suck with a shotgun.

"Like using a shotgun over and over again would make (the weapon, stat-wise) stronger." This line actually made me laugh and to play your game of strawman, this means that you believe all weapons stats improve stat-wise over time. Since apparently that is what happens when you get better at the game. Powerful point there. I concede. I guess it was so much to take in it had to settle for awhile.

I'm not against shotguns in general, I'd say that they might need a small buff in terms of effective range. However... Light Assaults with ambushers and secondary SMGs are completely game breaking. Eve infiltrator with shotgun won't be as OP as LA in it's current state. Infiltrator is quite easy to spot even without the Eye of Sauron, the cloak itself has ~1 sec delay after decoloaking.

I fail to see how an ultramobile class that can cover ~25m in a second, engage from a rooftop, balcony or any other inaccessible spot is any better. And the problem is that shotguns + ambushers become a meta that has little to no counter if executed correctly.

There was a time when infiltrators had shotguns. I averaged around 25-30KDR. Your cloak allows you set up ambush-points and engage at optimal range, i.e. creating the "around the corner" surprise over and over. Against an SMG you have time react, against a shotgun you'd just see the death screen. After that it wouldn't be long before people would be howling for infiltrator nerfs. "How can we let a class insta-kill up close and at range?! NERF IT NAO! RAWR!" *the sound of pitch forks and burning torches*

I cannot say I've felt powerless against ambusher LAs but it certainly is an effective combo.

Allright! Let's do this!

You claim it was your FPS that gave you a bad score. But you had an average accuracy and above average HSR on that account with everything, and did decent with everything, not as decent with Carbines though. But that all pales in comparison to the absolutely horrid stats you got with shotguns.

Why would that be? Why would your stats be OK with all weapons but you just can't make shotguns work? If shotguns are the epitome of newb weapons, you should have been able to make them your equalizer especially with a high ping. But you couldn't.

Then you claim that your FPS are better now. Your stats on your NC are indeed better, the best improvement I could see on a quick look was about 1.5x better. But you claim your shotgun play improved 30 times compared to your old score. IE you claimed you easily got a 6 KD.

On Dasanfall your shotgun usage isn't listed, you didn't use it enough to register. Unfortunately for you we have Fisu: https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=hippocrytiesnc&show=weapons
And it says that you did use the Mauler, and you got one of your lowest KD's on that weapon. You got 1.29 KD on your Mauler, a far cry from your claimed 6KD and honobru "I don't use it because it's too easy". In fact, most weapons in your arsenal you perform better with than your shotgun.


So why do you lie? You can correct me if I'm wrong here (but who would believe it after your thin lies so far?), but your entire character is almost exclusively aimed at mid- to long-range weapons. You simply dislike the fact that if someone closes the distance you suddenly can be killed with ease!

TL: DR:
You aren't good with shotguns, you lied, you just dislike getting killed by them.

As far as I'm aware, the script counts any hit including terminals. I don't think they count as regular kills with the exception of turrets which count as "phantom" kills I guess? We know that vehicle kills count as a "phantom" kill (it doesn't show up in your KD but does show up as another kill towards the directives). I figured out that Engineer turrets count as vehicle kills since my knives have multiple vehicle kills listed and I only ever killed Engineer turrets with them, but not enough to account for spawn beacons for example. I checked this with Frag Grenades which score a lot of spawn beacon/shield regeneration kills but they barely have any vehicle kills listed.

A MAX counts as a simple 1 kill, so it raises your LPK and SPK. Assists remains a "your screwed" message as you can deal 99.99% damage and you won't be credited anything but a 99.99% XP kill but nothing else. Which is a big middlefinger when it involves for example a Liberator with 3 extreme menace kills of which you only get 99.99% of the Liberator kill and nothing for the persons inside.


Shotguns are far from cheese weapons that get you an easy 6+KD. Looking at the top players of for example these shotguns:
http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item_leaderboard.php?query=7423
http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item_leaderboard.php?query=40002
http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item_leaderboard.php?query=75083

(these were picked at random as the top 3 shotguns I selected from my own weapons list on Dasanfall).
And then filter these shotguns to have KDR ranked from highest to lowest, you'll see that the top 2,5% scores higher than a 3.5KD, with higher than 5KD being for the creme de la creme of 0.1% or higher players.
Average KD for all shotgun users is around 1.2 and 1.5 according to the grades given. A quick look at the auto-shotgun:
http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item_leaderboard.php?query=40000

Also shows a similar performance stats, with the average KD being around 1.3.



In the meantime everyone against shotguns (and even a few who aren't really against) claim that shotguns are easy for a 2KD. Add insult to injury of your mentioned "won't be revived" and the fact that you need more skills to make it work (as proven by how HippoCryties with above-average accuracy and HSR isn't able to make them work as well as other weapons because he seems to lack the necessary skills) makes shotguns the bastard child that everyone is somehow afraid off but it's actually not really bad.

It's actually incredibly close to the GD-7F for example, a close relative due to it's CQC nature. In that regards shotguns could be called balanced as they currently perform similar to their closest automatic counterparts.


Edit:
A quick look through the landed per kill on those 4 pages also shows that the "anyone needs only 2 or 3 shots per kill" is exaggerated. On average a player needs at least 4.3 with the auto-shotgun, 4.5 with the semi-auto, 2.4 with the pump-action and 4.5 with the Baron. And those are the landed hits, not counting any potential misses.

First of all I CBA to read that text wall so all i saw was the tldr. Like how tf u manage to right that much jheeeeeezzz! Anyways, I don’t think I’ve ever experienced gameplay on 20 FPS. I had a good HSR since I used those guns in tiny fights at 20 FPS. In large fights I used ****guns since my fire rate died down in larger fights at about 10 FPs

Actually bothered to read it now, WTF do u mean mid longs range. Have u tried auraxium the gladius at MID RANGE , or the cyclone, or the MSW r, or the Orion, or the TAR like WTF. I love CQC in this game, and instead of using pathetic one shot kill weps I use skillful guns that take a while to kill enemies thus giving them a chance to react, don’t know where u got the idea that I mostly use mid range guns, don’t think I’ve ever even used one for more than 1 hour

Cant be asked to read it despite having read longer one's on here so far, or can't come up with enough lies to recover from the burns?

Because while you are bashing me personally, I'm using performance stats and actual stats to paint you a picture, and apparently you don't like your own picture mister "I get 6KD so I don't touch them it's unfair" but in reality manage 1.29 KD. The best of the best, top players of the 0.1% and higher manage to get 6KD. You don't fall into that category, and even if you did your personal performance does not mean that shotguns magically turn OP.