Shotguns and elitists

Its really easy to take advantage of shotgun users even indoors

Dont chase them down and theyve got a pistol or nothing

.........Or a rocket launcher but thats a one shot chance

None of the Oracle's stats are particularly good at accurately showing a weapon's performance because as you said, they don't take player deaths - or Rezzes - into account. They can point to general trends in how frequently you can get kills with one, and point out obvious disparities in kill rates amongst similar weapons, but that's about it.

That said, the Uniques stat is simply a measure of how many users pulled that weapon and got at least one kill with it. It's strictly a popularity contest. It says absolutely nothing about how well the weapon performs.

And yet Gundem said, "shotguns are outscored by stock weapons" - which points to performance, not popularity. So if performance is what you're looking for, KPU and KPH are much better indicators than just Uniques since they do at least give some indication of performance over time - even f they're far from perfect.

Doesn't work that way.

I swear those arguing for shotguns are bad at it and don't actually know how to use one right.

I use shotgun exclusively and almost exclusively for medic for my light assualt and its in my top 3 for most kills

I know exactly how to deal with them directly from experience

If you see a guy hugging a doorway with a shotgun you dont get in his range without something to ensure distance or an advantage on your end

No, its more that they aren't as big a deal as those against shotguns thing they are.

They are the same group of people saying that shotguns are horrible, but in the range they are designed for, they are anti-fun/non-skilled/insert any anti-shotgun term or description here.

They are complaining about a literal non-issue. Shotguns don't even dominate in the ranged they are designed for because they are very often out-classed by other CQC SMG/Carbines.

There is no basis, no substance, no anything to this oxymoron of an argument.

The easiest way to counter a shotgun is to get your 1st gen SMG out, ADAD with it at 10 meters. Boom, dead shotty user.

No, my argument is "you know how to use shotguns, but you have no idea how they work".

You think that they are skill-leveling weapons between noobs and elite players, which is just plain wrong.

Really? So the potential of a 12 kills with one magazine faster than any weapon is a limit of your kill potential? If you've got the aim for it and the skill to get in close of a large group, it should be possible without any RNG messing it up.
I think my limit so far was 6 headshot kills in a row after a masterful flanking maneuver, it was so packed they didn't realize I was there at first.

And you pointed at something completely different than why people hate on them. You might have been pointing at yourself and say "see, this is how people think shotguns work so they hate them" and then you might have been right. But you pointed out to how shotguns work, and that was simply completely wrong from how they work in the game.

It's cute how this ******* moron is continuing to argue over shotgun balance with a player that is literally infinitely better than him. This is EXACTLY the ******* problem. Dunning-Kruger is way too common.

It's only extreme at extremely close range, where 2 shots to kill are more or less guaranteed. 3 shots to kill are more realistic, and they give a ~0.53 TTK for default shotties.

2 shot TTK is 0.266, which is in line with headshot TTK of most automatics.

I fail to see the issue.

Did the 300 shotgun kills directive for LA and I'm quite happy that I can put it away now. Being unable to retaliate at medium-long ranges is too much of a downside for me.

Maybe not put it away just yet? 800 more shotgun kills will probably be easier than 300 vehicle destruction. Just sayin'

I'm slowly working on my LA directive, any tips?

Of course

http://planethead.info/classes/light-assault-guide#LADirectives

Vehicle destruction isn't that hard if you carefully choose the targets without proximity/scout radar and attack from above, e.g. a cliff face, wall, e.t.c...

Keep your eyes out for enemy infiltrators sitting on hills and in other places. With the mobillity of LA, it's often possible to approach them from the other side without them noticing. Especially on mountains, there often tend to be positions above the infiltrator from where you can bestow your presents, like tofu blocks or point blank shotgun blasts to the cranium.

Still harder than plain shotgun kills. You see an enemy infantry - you probably can kill it with a shotgun. Vehicles are much more rare, require being overextended - granted most pilots dunno how to drive safely - and most importantly you get only one attempt per life / resupply.

It's not hard, just long-er and hard-er than shotgun kills, in my opinion.

Shotguns... I don't think there is anything DBG can do to make them properly balanced. Buff them and they become ridiculously OP. Nerf them and they become completely useless. Shotguns are always going to be incredibly cheesy, and I've just come to accept that. The only thing that DBG could really do to make shotguns less annoying would be to just remove them from HA, but even then, it wouldn't mean much, because shotgun heavys, while incredibly annoying, aren't really all that common to begin with, so removing shotguns from HA wouldn't even make that much of a difference.

It's cute how you claim complete fallacies to be true and when you get called out on it say "but I'm better with it than you".

Get smart dude! Stop claiming things as fact even though it's completely different from the truth! There's Rednecks that handle guns infinitely better than the gunsmith that designed and build them, that does not mean they know how they work!
In fact you see it all over. The work I'm doing I'll be designing stuff for people with handicaps, but also for pro-athletes to improve their game. The athlete might know how to do his thing, but I'm the one who's telling him how to improve even though I can't do what he's doing. This is my work man! What I'm doing for a living. Analyzing stuff and giving the results to the people who will have to use them, improving their life, workplace or in case of athletes improving their game.
Now I don't put as much time and effort in analyzing the things in this game as I do things for my work, but I damn well did analyze it, where you are using "I'm good with it" as an excuse for some random idea's of how you think it works.

Now i also tell you how I think it works, but at least I have backed it up with firm reasoning and analysis of how people work and learn.

I'm interested, what's the cheesy part here?

All I see is the following:
Normal weapons can be somewhat effective outside of their effective range and are often used out of cover. Fighting in any area is as easy as getting a view of the area and firing at anything that moves, with varying maximum ranges where people will feel safe enough and not effective enough so they will get closer. There's basically no more knowledge necessary than where the battlefield is and getting a view of it within the 50 to 120m most weapons still work on.
Shotguns are simply not effective outside of their effective range and even already lose effectiveness inside their effective range, which is anywhere between 5 to 15m depending on the shotgun, and at 15m you've already lost almost everything of the advantages a shotgun might give you even with the best long-range shotguns. Shotguns require you to get out of cover, there's no pop-up shotties that can pop up, remain partially covered while firing at you, then pop back into cover. The places where they could would be doorways where your enemy is immediately at the other end of it. Shotguns require extensive knowledge of the terrain, possible places people will be watching, distances to those possible places so that you don't get under fire while your enemy is outside of your range, and pure dumb luck that an enemy won't face you as you run the last stretch to your enemy to kill him and get killed before you can actually use it.
The TTK is limited and due to the average of a 2 to 3 shot kill that almost every shotgun user experiences your TTK will be about on par or even higher than automatics, which is a piss-poor advantage after all the work and danger you put yourself in to get close in the first place. This leaves the only real advantage of shotguns that I've named before: Huge damage per magazine. These are basically pocket-LMG's for the amount of damage you can wield, but attainable by more classes than the Heavy.


So I ask again, what's the cheesy part according to you?

Apart from their not being cheesy, I have thought of a revamp that I think would put Shotguns in a nice place. A sort of cross-breed of current Shotguns and SMG's, that relies more on ADS for faster TTK. Make SMG's the "higher TTK, reliable with frantic hipfire", and shotguns the "Lower TTK, still punishes bad aim but actually rewards good aim with damage potential outside knife range"

Basically, as I posted before, make them a 3-shot kill with no HSM penalty, tighten their pellet spread, buff their RoF to closely resemble their TTK before, then leave their CoF either the same or slightly increased.

As for specific range demographic, I would want a consistent 3-HK inside 15 meters, 4-5 shots inside 20-25 meters. With the improved RoF, your TTK would not suffer so badly for targets barely outside optimum range.

Obviously there would be individual nuances for each one, but overall the theme would remain the same.

As for PA shotguns, I would want them to take the same route, but still keep the whole "Extremely punishing to miss, extremely rewarding to hit" dynamic. But rather then any significant range increases, I would actually prefer to make the OHK more consistent inside 7 meters for 1st gen and 5 meters for 2nd gen. Currently, there are to many variables such as pellet spread, damage segregation, NW armor and CoF to ever get a consistent OHK, at any range really.

Specifically, I would want the 1st gen to have longer OHK range but reduced hipfire reliability, 2nd gen would have shorter OHK but better hipfire. As for making the OHK reliable, I would start with making damage fall-off start at 8 meters for 1st gen and 5 meters for 2nd gen. Make range dependent on pellet spread alone, not coupled with stupid damage fall off(Which only serves to stick it up the *** of slug rounds). I would reduce the hipfire CoF of the 2nd gen, as well as increase the pellet spread to whatever values allow it to get a consistent OHK inside 5 meters. Then, do the opposite of the 1st gen to make it require ADS, and that's a revamp for ya!


Now, as for whether or not PA shotguns are balanced, I won't say. SOE was the one who decided to introduce a OHK CQC gun, I'm only suggesting a method to make it reliably viable.

Furthermore, all numbers are speculative and subject to change depending on the results of in-game testing. If, with the suggested stats, any one or more weapon appears to be either under or over performing, said stats can be adjusted to compensate for said performance deviation.

I like reading topics like these. Shotguns V other weapons and such. But I also hate them as well.

Not for the topic itself or the people in it, nothing but love for those. I both like and hate it from how people tend to forget that most everyone has the choice to use either a shotgun or another weapon type at any time they wish. It is all about that choice, for everyone but MAXes.

Don't like something? Don't use it! Unless you are a MAX that is.


You guys think mainning shotguns takes more skill when playing HA/LA? Try doing the same without a pistol backup, without the ability to ADS, without medkits, and without having recharging shields all while being the slowest, loudest, and biggest infantry(ish) class in the game.

Bit of a rant. But Im just so past sick of that ****.