Shotguns and elitists

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Gundem, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Scr1nRusher

    People hate anything that kills them and "offends" them.

    Go figure, its been that way since the dawn of time.
  2. Maljas23

    You're part of the problem. You're just too dense to notice :rolleyes:
  3. Blue_Shift

    There are a couple reasons shotguns are frowned upon by "elitists".

    1. The way the netcode works in this game makes corner rushing a tactical advantage. I.E. the lag will allow whoever rushes a corner to see their enemy before their enemy can see them. With Shot Guns its a 1-2 shot kill. Now if two people use a non shotgun type weapon, even a spray and pray weapon.. the ttk and number of bullets required to kill still requires the person to aim for a longer period of time so that the person who corner rushed close range might still lose if hes not as good as aiming. But the Shotgun corner rusher just has to get 1 or 2 lucky shots in.

    2. Shotguns are less about aim than other weapons. Maybe requires twitch, but sustained aim ability is not as important.

    So In a nut shell Shotguns take less aiming skill and are easier to abuse the flaws of the way the netcode works.
  4. Gundem

    I understand that my thread has gotten a pretty significant gathering, but do go back and read at least pages 7-10. There's a lot of reasoning and argument as to why that simply isn't true, by a lot of really good players.

    Except for the latency abuse, that is real, but it can be used with any weapon really.
    • Up x 2
  5. Nakihashi

    I find the shotty's to my liking.

    First off, most shotguns are class-wide (save for infiltrators... but honestly, who plays them? XD). Once I discovered this (early on, fortunately), I was able to fully cert and master the playstyle of the Piston shotgun. This allowed me to use a very viable and fun weapon on every infantry class that I was trying to cert or get used to, making class swapping much easier in times of need (no one wants to drop their HA with their 12 kill streak to go repair a MAX or revive the idiots who keeps dying over and over again in the doorway). While the shotgun is in no way OP or broken, it's certainly a viable weapon that suits certain players playstyles.

    Next, my Jackhammer will BREAK you. I've strafed into a room with 3 to 4 hostiles in it, unloaded three-to-four 3-round bursts, and, on the rare occasion that I can aim properly, dropped all of them, leaving me with half health. That can be game-changing when you're trying to break through enemy lines to get to a capture point. Think of 3 or 4 HA's with Jackhammers pulling this off. Bring a CM or two, and the base is pretty much yours.

    Of course, I've been dropped just as many times as I've been dropping whilst wielding a shotgun by other weapons (damn those infiltrators... seriously...), but the shotty is my weapon of choice for most encounters. Unless I'm outside, and the nearest hostile is more than 30M away, then it's an AR or a MG of some sort.
  6. Demigan

    OK you are annoyed by them. But why aren't you annoyed by any weapon that's used in this fashion? Because believe you me, they definitely can, and I constantly do.
  7. Ryme_Intrinseca

    You can use a carbine etc in similar fashion but your TTK is much longer then. TTK is central to the 'no chance to fight back' issue.
    • Up x 1
  8. Demigan

    Eh, if you are counting on two lucky shots with a shotgun in this fashion, you'll be doing this a hundred times over and over again before you get one situation where you get that lucky shot.
    No, a shotgun requires skill to do a 1-shot, but also a 2 or 3-shot kill. The average that I find with a shotgun is that 2 or 3 shot kill, because only with PA's can you 1-shot someone with bodyshots and with other guns you need a headshot combined with the RNG and/or CQC distance to have enough pellets hit the head. And if you are close enough for RNG not to matter you really need a lot of skill to hit as any movement on your enemies part will cause them to be off your crosshair in a single frame.

    Ofcourse a shotgun has an advantage when you are peeking around the corner and shooting someone directly on the other end. However you need to keep in mind several things:
    1: With a 2 or 3 shot kill you have similar TTK's as other weapons
    2: You are assuming that the enemy actually is right on the other side of the corner. If he isn't and has put some distance between him and the corner, you are instantly screwed because your shotgun will be ineffective.
    3: You are assuming a scenario where the player can easily reach that corner. Most of the time your enemy will be using that corner for a peek-a-boo fight himself (why else would he be there?), so approaching it will most likely have you spotted and shot at a few times before you get to that corner anyway, and if your peek-a-boo player has any sense he knows a shotgun is coming, and he'll either take the latency advantage himself and jump out in front of the shotgunner, or he'll put some distance between him and the corner so the shotgun becomes useless.
    Which is why shotguns are used as surprise weapons mostly. Because you always have to close that distance, play your enemy and manage to hug him before he knows you are coming.

    Automatics are "hold trigger and try to look at your enemy". Even if your enemy is doing a merry little dance you'll score some hits simply because your weapon happened to fire when your aim crossed him.
    Shotguns require you to make every single shot count. Sustained aim ability might not be important, but that absolutely not mean that it's easier. Unlike what many people think, having half a hit is not good for a shotgun user. You need full bodyshots or you are better off with an automatic. In CQC where an enemy can have you do two 180 turns in less than a second this is extremely difficult and requires... Aim. buttloads of skill in aim.

    So in a nutshell, shotguns require more skill in aiming skill and are only easier to (ab)use the flaws in netcode if you can manage to surprise your enemy or your enemy does not have the skill to deal with a spotted shotgun user. And seeing that "skill to deal with a shotgun user" comes down to "get enough distance and shoot them" It only stresses the point of surprise attacks.
  9. FunBotan

    Oh, ok. But still, spotting usually runs out before they leave cover again and you can't always re-spot them through an obstacle. Infiltrators can just reset their marker with a press of a button. Most times i can predict their movement, but if i'm fighting a br100 that gets much harder.
  10. Demigan

    As I've repeated over and over again, in most situations the Carbine will have only a slightly longer TTK, and a Carbine can really kill someone before the first hit-marker arrives from a longer range than a shotgun, essentially stopping the "chance to fight back" from a longer range than a shotgun as well.
  11. Ryme_Intrinseca

    TTK is zero with a PA shotgun (OHK), and about 0.25 secs with an auto/semi-auto shotgun (2 shot kill). Most of that 0.25 is lost with network communication and processing, and the remaining 0.1 secs or so is not enough for typical human reactions to do anything. TTK with carbines is around 0.5 secs with high DPS weapons, and towards 0.75 secs with lower DPS ones. So assuming again that 0.15 is lost to the network etc you have 0.35-0.6 to react, which most humans can manage. So there really is a very big difference between carbines and SGs, especially when you combine TTK with network considerations. 0.1 secs is 'no chance', but 0.35-0.6 does give you a window of opportunity.
  12. Azawarau

    So warm with all these blankets around this thread

    Its getting heated

    Bad puns for good reasons
  13. Gundem

    There are a lot of flaws with your argument there. Firstly and most erroneous, is that you assume 100% accuracy for the user. I consider myself pretty proficient with shotguns, yet I average at about 64% accuracy for my latest account.

    Using the wonderful stats provided by DA, I can see that my average shots landed per kill using Shotguns is 3. While this is technically anecdotal, I also checked the stats of Iridar and Demigan, and it was the same, about 3. I would also bet my right arm that even the most skilled players don't go below 2.5 shots to kill.

    This means that your TTK is actually closer to .8 seconds(Assuming my math is correct, been a while since I calculated TTK and may have forgotten how to do it exactly :oops:).

    Now on to my normal infantry. Currently, my TR only uses 143 damage profile weapons. With that out of the way, I check and see that my shots to kill hangs at 11, Iridar at 10.7, Demigan at 9.5(Which makes sense, being an NC character you would need less shots to kill on average).

    This means that our non-shotgun TTK will hang around the .88 range. And this is with a 750RPM weapon. Were I to use an 845RPM weapon, it would be in even greater favor of automatic weapons.

    By such calculations, it tells us that mid-range/high level players can get nearly the same TTK using an automatic then with a shotgun.

    Secondly, you assume that the shotgun user itself is immunized to the effects of latency. If 2 people round a corner at the same time, they will both experience the same latency effects.

    Thirdly, you also assume that the shotgun user has perfect reaction time, which is also wrong.
    • Up x 1
  14. Iridar51

    To point out something: I've checked TorokF's stats with pump action shotgun (i.e. someone's who's miles better than me) and he had landed-per-kill of 1.5. Extra .5 can be addressed to killing shielded HAs in two shots and an occasional miss. So I guess it is possible for someone to use it effectively, just have to play PS2 6 hours a day for 4 years :rolleyes:

    And in general, as far as LPK goes, it's not an end-all-be-all statistic either, because it takes into account hits on vehicles and hits that didn't lead to a kill in general. Apparently I tend to stat pad by shooting vehicles with my primaries. Incidentally, this inflates weapon accuracy and deflates headshot kill %.
  15. Gundem

    Both valid points, but I suppose it's still vastly superior then trying to determine a weapons effectiveness using raw statistical observation in a vacuum.

    Though for my TR I don't think I've padded all that much... Maybe on my PDW a bit :oops:
    • Up x 2
  16. Poppington

    Auto shotguns are worse carbines/ARs, but they are stigmatized, but are fine.

    Pump shotguns are the standard low skill floor/low skill ceiling weapon in every PVP game, and are fine.

    And it doesn't matter.
  17. Ryme_Intrinseca

    Your first point is irrelevant. I calculated the TTK at 100% accuracy because that's how TTK has always been calculated for every gun in every FPS ever. Still, even if you insist on using, e.g., 50% accuracy the TTK differential between an auto/semi-auto shotgun and carbine will be pretty much the same, it just lowers for both guns to a similar extent. You also misuse the shots to kill stats, as Iridar has said. This is all very simple stuff that should not have to be explained.

    You second point is mistaken. Yes, if two people round the corner at the same time, both experience the same latency effects. But that is not the case I am talking about. What about when the SGer gets the drop on the carbine user? Since damage is calculated client side, and the SGer puts out massive damage in fractions of a second, the carbine user has no time to react. By contrast, if the carbine user gets the drop on the SGer, TTK is long enough that there is time for the SGer to react. Latency is identical for the two players, but the incredible TTK of a shotgun allows the SGer to exploit it (and especially client side damage) more effectively. Again, this is simple stuff that any experienced FPS player should know already.

    Finally, you pull out of the air the idea that the SGer has perfect reaction time. I don't even know where to start with that one.

    In short, since you have not addressed the issues at all, I see no value in continuing this discussion.
  18. Gundem

    My points are completely valid. Because of the nature of shotguns, they are significantly more punishing for misses then automatic weapons. Therefore, using accuracy percentages would be an inaccurate method of measuring realistic shotgun performance. My point is that nobody can ever actually use a shotgun's superior TTK in high level gameplay, therefore it is completely relevant.

    And as I said, it's not perfect, but it's better then calculating based on 100% accuracy, which nobody has.

    And I was only pointing out the fact that you completely neglected to mention that shotgun users suffer from latency just as much, acting as if using a shotgun magically removes that from the equation. Which in turn, shows your slanted viewpoint. Unlike Iridar, who conceded to my point that my calculations are a superior form of information comparison over yours. I am completely aware that shotguns benefit those abusing latency more then other weapon types, but seriously, if that's all you can pull in defense of the "shotguns are cheesy" side, you're mac' is pretty dry. In the ocean of significant downsides a shotgun has, that one, pathetic, insignificant advantage in the grand scheme of the game does not justify any of the negative stigma towards shotguns.
    • Up x 2
  19. Iridar51

    There's another piece of utility I think we missed. It has nothing to do with the topic, but it is something that shotguns can do, while automatics can't.

    Everyone knows that a few shots + a knife swing from any automatic create a very short TTK, somewhere in the realm of shotgun 2-shot kill. Naturally, this has a disadvantage of requiring melee, and if the swing is not fatal, puts the user at a disadvantage.

    However, shotguns can use the same trick to get a nearly instant kill. 1 shot from any shotgun primary + knife swing is enough to kill anyone even through nanoweave, save for shielded HAs.

    Of course, a lot of the time it's simpler to just fire another shot, but it's a fun thing and a nice piece of utility. Basically turns any shotgun into pump action shotgun at melee range, as far as lethality is concerned. Can be handy if the target has like 0.1 second of exposure time, which isn't nearly enough to make 2 shotgun shots.
    • Up x 2
  20. bLind db

    I'll bite. I absolutely think they're scrub weapons. Let's look at it from a pros/cons perspective:


    Very Low TTK in CQC.
    Don't require ADS and the pellet design allows for exceptional aim in CQC.
    Don't require headshots to do maximum damage; are completely viable without headshotting at all.
    Potential one-hit kills within 5 meter range for Pump Action shotguns.


    "Worthless" outside of 10-15 meters.
    Smaller magazine size potentially limiting kills per magazine.
    Slug rounds are underwhelming and often not worth it.

    Now, those cons can be avoided, and it's still very easy to really use the pros to your advantage (not unlike most weapons). If I want to sit on a higher KDR as a HA, I need to play to my strengths as opposed to just running into the open and spraying at people. Fortunately, holding an angle on a doorway, hallway, or general point of egress is an extremely easy thing to do, so that's something I try to do as much as possible.

    The low effective range on shotguns is countered by the fact that a large majority of fights in this game already take place at relatively close ranges, usually under 15-20 meters (many people make engage outside these ranges with varied results, but for the most part it's just not that efficient.) It's very easy to maximize your effective range by sitting in virtually any building, whether it's a 3 story, L-shape, random hut, tower, whatever. Fight to your strength. Even HA's shouldn't be engaging targets outside of 30 meters because it's usually not going to result in a kill. Sure, you have more of a chance for a kill with an LMG than a shotgun, but that's the downside of shotguns.

    Smaller mag-size is debatable, as well. Most Carbines/AR's have a 30 round magazine, and most people have a LPK of 8 or higher, meaning you're using up to 1/3 or more of your magazine for a single kill. A shotgun with extended mags can often kill in two shells, leaving 4-6 still in the magazine. That means they're using roughly 1/4-1/3 of their mag per kill, potentially more if their aim is bad. If you're choosing your fights efficiently, this shouldn't be a problem.

    Slugs being underwhelming is too bad, but whatever. They're still useful, but it's still easier to just limit your encounters to an ideal range for pellets.

    Shotguns are obviously situational, but I believe that they're also incredibly user-friendly (re: scrub-friendly) in their ideal range. Even bad players can accidentally engage within 10 meters fairly frequently in this game, and the less-restrictive aiming penalties at close range just make it extremely easy to get kills.

    Again, I'm not saying they're easymode at all parts of the game, and they absolutely shouldn't be. But looking at things objectively, even LMG's are most effective at very close ranges because you have better accuracy, therefore a better TTK. Many good HA's are trying to get up close for this reason, and the second they meet a shotgun user, they lose, purely because of the weapon that the other guy has. That's a problem, to me.