Revive grenades. They really needs to be toned down.

Discussion in 'Combat Medic' started by Makora, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. SpartanPsycho

    no no no no no no GOD ***** NO! this is not a good idea.
  2. Nalothisal

    A thread about nerfing the most useful thing in the game made by a guy who is a bad medic?

    *Throws in the towel* THAT'S IT! I'M DONE! I'M DONE WITH THE FORUMS! TOO MANY IDIOTS CRYING, AND RIDICULOUS NERF THREADS! I SAW TREE NERF THREADS, FLASH NERF THREADS, AND NO ROCKET HEAVY THREADS BUT THIS! THIS THREAD TAKES THE CAKE! THERE IS NO PLEASING ANY OF YOU NITWITS AND DWEBS AND I AM DONE! *Slams the door on his way out*
  3. Problem Officer

    If you have a problem countering revive grenades then whoever's using them is either in the position to barely save a few seconds instead of reviving manually, or is reviving light assaults where the heal tool can't reach.
    Learn to keep track of fallen enemies, if you're looking and they accept a revive, they're free certs.

    More constructive than that though, ban for nerf threads.
    [IMG]
    • Up x 1
  4. BravoTangoTR

    I think the OP makes a well-constructed argument. The only statement I would disagree with is that res grenades favors zerg-rushing. I play primarily medic and find that, if anything, they help counter a zerg. I find them most useful when outnumbered and far from a spawn while assaulting/defending a point. I've been in many squads that held off a whole platoon long enough to cap a base by using res grenades. Conversely, I rarely use them when we outnumber the enemy. It's not worth the resources. But maybe I'm different from most medics? Dunno.

    I'm intrigued by option number 3. I'm curious to see how that would work out in a real battle. It would be like getting a redo on the fight. It would make for some crazy, fast-paced, winner-takes-all CQC combat.
    • Up x 2
  5. SpartanPsycho

    You actually obeyed an order to cert something out? This discredits you entirely. You actually obeyed a random person on the internet that told you to use virtual points to get a virtual item in a virtual game and now you posting on the forums of that virtual game to nerf that virtual item, even though your obviously bad at playing a virtual class in the virtual game, because you think that the virtual item is bad.

    [IMG]
  6. Makora

    Are you that thick and vain of a person to resort to personal attacks based on THAT? And in fact, no, that person was not random, I have met him in real life. I have had drinks with him. Hell I've even gotten stoned with him. He's a person I trust with many things. You assume too much.

    Your limited mental capacity to comprehend far-reaching effects in long term are clear. And as such I will not try to argue with you as you will not grasp any argument I give you.
  7. SpartanPsycho

    So it hasn't changed.
    Your enough of a sheep to do what somebody tells you to do, then you complain when you don't like what he told you to do?
    EDIT: [IMG]
  8. Sabreno Carvaroni

    In this game, grenade spam is countered with a grenade spam. Either rez nades or frag. If a squad being wiped out by huge amount of incoming splash damage there is no real option beside a resurrection nade to resurrect them, and even if you do resurrect them they are easy kills since they are at half health and no shields so any further splash damage will make short work of them even with flak armor. You could try to go in with flak armor and rez them manually but either you risk getting yourself killed\deterred by more splash or by enemy infantry that will have no trouble attacking your position since your friends are dead. And that is likely to happen before you finish your resurrecting business or even before you start.

    In less extreme scenario it may be truly more of a lazy tool to use, since everyone is better of when medics uses medigun to resurrect (medic doesn't spend resources and limited supply of nades, infantry get more health after revive, maxes can be revived) . Or in some cases can help out if the target is out of reach. But the laziness would be of a player. Resurrection nade have its drawbacks already, so if a player wishes to resurrect some light assault from a rooftop that is his decision on how to spend his limited supply item. It doesnt mean that everyone will suddenly become lazy if they use an item that some people use in a lazy fashion.

    With zerglings, there is not much of a point to resurrect them with nades beside of getting some free experience or trying too keep pushing with raw mass since they are very likely to die after being resurrected. It doesn't promote zerging as such, since zerg doesnt have a commander to employ said tactic consciously. And it's not likely that every single medic on a field will carry resurrection nade, especially in a zerg.

    As for situations where said tactic is applied by a squad or a platoon it's not bad either. It encourages players to attack since they know that if they get killed in large numbers, there is still hope for them. Same with defence, although usually it's harder for defending force to employ since after reviving there is little to no time to get your orientation back and defend yourself before you get killed yet again. And this goes for infantry only, maxes are pretty much out of the question, infantry is fragile enough to give them some slack as mass revive option. Otherwise trying to breach an entrenched enemy with infantry only would be a sure suicide mission for most participants if not all, with less chance of a success then it is with rez nades.

    Also, healing grenade does work through obstacles as well, as does medics healing aura, as does EMP, as does medic shield regen device. They cannot kill players through obstacles, most of them are support only. What is exactly unfair about it?

    In competitive terms this would be an OK idea in case if all parties agree, since there is established teams, goals and stage. With general play of planetside 2 this is not a very good idea. It's already not easy to maintain infantry alive in big battles, much so with random players. If your forces get wiped out the other option will be to respawn and repeat the whole process of attacking\defending all over again. Battles does not end when you get killed on a point, and even now resurrection grenade is not a guaranteed win solution.
    Besides, no one forces anyone's hand to use a rez nade, more so when you have none to spare or even certed. This priorities point is not related to item, it rather relates to a players choices. If it would be a free, unlimited tool then sure, those point would be very valid since you could forget about your med tool entirely. However this is not the case, it does have its downsides to make people evaluate their decision before using it and it's limitations to not spam it at every corner.

    I would agree with such limitations if this was a lan shooter with ping never going past 30 ms, but this is an MMO. Lag is enough to render your attempt at getting up an impossible task at times, you will die before you even know it. Plus after death screen it is somewhat disorienting transition back into previous PoV, adding some extra effect would be a little to much, considering that you are already handicapped with low health.

    Considering the scale of Planetside 2 and the fact that anyone can use this nades, this change would lead to some unpleasant experience. An idiot that blows up a bunch of teammates is one thing, an idiot who resurrects a whole squad of enemies is just an entirely new level. Not to mention some people who might do that intentionally for either killing them again afterwards as an easy kills or to mess with his own teammates.

    What would respawning then be? Rebirth into new life? Its not logical\not realistic as is, why try to overthink things and make it more tied to reality now? There is only one thing that explains everything in planetside - nanites. As for game feature, seems not great. It would make medics less useful since many people die in FoV of the enemy and there is no way of guarding their bodies from such execution, unless there is another person who is willing to cover his corpse with his own. And I wonder how it would work with explosives, for instance if an HE tank spams someplace on the base and happens to score a kill then it's likely that it will hit the corpse times and times again therefore executing it in the process if it's not resurrected immediately?
    • Up x 1
  9. Makora

    Yes, weapons fire would make short work of them. But the problem is in general not about the ones out in the open, stuck in a killzone. It's the ones that are in the building you're in. Namely the point room, where in case of a revive grenade you can not tell if it's friendly or enemy (save for the revive shimmer on corpses) and most everyone who just cleared to room are more interested in the "out" rather then looking at the "in" that they just cleared. And they can't keep doing it for the whole 30 seconds that a body remains revivable or the time after revive waiting if they accept or not. So in case of the revive happening in the middle of enemies. They will be hard pressed to kill everyone without friendly fire. And I, personally, try to maintain some discipline by not shooting at friendlies. And if it happens once, it's hardly a problem, but because these can be spammed for as long as there's a medic with one of these alive it becomes an issue (so one medic throws a revive grenade, reviving medic who throws a revive grenade and so forth).

    I admit, maybe lazy was not the best word for it.

    But that's how this game has come to work. Damn near all assaults on anything larger then a 24vs24 match are won by pushing the larger mass on to a point. This is especially glaring in single point bases where if the fight becomes big enough where it's a platoon vs a platoon, the one who uses sheer mass push tactics more often then not, win. And since these are confined spaces, these grenades will pick up many people, and if someone's watching over them, they are likely to be cut down before they can kill everyone who just got revived. Especially if there are multiple grenades, meaning the guy who you just killed a second time, got up and shot you dead when you were killing an another guy a second time. Or a third time. I hope you gt my point. At least on Miller, I have begun to notice more and more "organized zergs" The days of mindless masses are coming to a close as the game has gone on long enough and the player base old enough, that the experienced/veteran people who have been around long enough to know what's going on and can adapt to situations, and if these people push, the rest follow, snowballing. That's how zergs work. Also High battleranks are very common. I'd say BR100 is likely the most common battlerank I see out there, these days. And high Directive scores suggest low BR's are alts.

    Res grenade is an offensive tool. Even if your team was holding the point and dies, your revive grenade is technically part of an assault on your team to get the point back. Attacking or defending a point is separate from base ownership. And using res grenades defensively signals that your defense has practically fallen. Enough people have died fast enough to signal the assault has succeeded in either breaking or weakening your defensive position.
    As for why I think it should not exist, is BECAUSE it promotes attacks through otherwise impassable places. It undermines the core principle of effective defense of creating an area that you, as an attacker, can not push through at all, or not without massive casualties that you can not afford. At some point, the turrets will overheat, the defenders are reloading or out of grenades and the attackers are back up and shooting. Remember what I said about you getting shot by the guy you killed twice already while you were killing another guy a second time?
    This is the issue. The complete disregard for the defender as this game has become "ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK" as we're all mooks in a giant TV trope.

    None of those, save for the EMP grenade (unless it gets a considerable buff to it's effect on infantry) should work through walls.

    But by all intents and purposes it IS a free tool to use outside of it's initial cert cost. The resource cost is only a minor issue to the point where some consider it a non issue. And it is used on damn near every situation.
    Secondly why is it so bad to force people, especially attackers, to respawn and try again? They botched their assault. The defenders won this round. Fall back, refine the plan and try again. Why must it be "Keep pushing! They gotta reload at some point!"? The revive grenade IS primarily an offensive tool. It can be used on the defense, but when your team wiped on the capture point, then your res grenade is basically attacking the point the enemy now holds.

    Latency works both ways. Sometimes the guy who got revived, will have accepted the revive, stood up and shot you on his side before on your side he even got up. And also lets consider the fact that you might have other things to worry about then the corpse behind you MAYBE springing back to life, rather then the very alive enemy in your sights or there's just too many corpses to keep an eye on. They might have low health but TTK is short enough that if they get the first shot it you might just be too dead to do anything about him or guy next to him.

    You don't have to accept the revive. It could also show you in faction colors who's reviving so it's up to you if you want to accept that VS medic's revive. Maybe it's a trap? Maybe he made a mistake? Who knows!
    This is not my first choice either. But it is an option, no mater how unlikely.

    Respawning is... a clone body. A copy of you, implanted with your memories. Or maybe it's just a standard body with a preselected face that houses your mind. "One size fits all" soldier, with four faces variety, makes sense when you think about it for a bit.
    As for the execution in enemy FoV or HE spam. Why is it bad? Again, it's the insistence that "the attack must go on" rather then making it obvious the defenders have this approach locked down and you either need a different plan or more men. Or if you're the owner of the base, locked in the spawn room it's time to redeploy a base back and prepare defenses or for a counter-assault.
    Also there's the option of having a "cooldown" on getting revives. Meaning if you get revived, a timer starts. If you die before the timer runs out you can't be revived. Timer resets when you respawn and is, for example 40 seconds. 10 seconds longer then the time it takes for your body to vanish without a revive. So you die, get revived. Live 41 seconds, die and you can get revived again. Die 20 seconds later and you're out of luck.
  10. Sabreno Carvaroni

    It has a distinct sound after fusing, no other grenade has it. It has quite visible visual effects as well. Players that are going to resurrect also gets into distinctive pose, and glow after revive nade effect applies. How much more hints are needed? The only more obvious one would be a nade icon with red cross on it made in enemy colors, or a loud sound of reviving infantry.
    And for randoms waiting a whole 30 seconds for a medic is something fenomenal, majestic even. Most just fly to spawn room at first possibility, maybe waiting for a medic few extra seconds at best if there is one in close proximity. Unless they are in a MAX suit, although many dont seem to trust other players to revive them at all and go to spawn room anyway.

    If you are fighting a Miller's VS then they do have zerg-fits with command that gives directions. And they do have the numbers to stomp people. Not sure of NC, never had a big problem with them. And still I'm a bit sceptical about people in large quantities becoming less mindless as a whole even if many of them to gain experience of playing PS2.

    There is no such thing as an unaffordable casualty in this game. Worst thing that happens - you need to wait some time to do something again. It may be crucial in situation when time is important, as in base capturing\defending and alerts.
    Although it's true that people defending a point cannot spam nades at incoming enemies at asame rate as attackers can since they cannot resupply them like attackers do.

    And the reason is?

    Since zergs don't have a plan? Many people are playing without squads. And best tactic zerg ever do is extensive use of cannon fodder till everything dies.

    It can suck for both but seriously, the one who is getting revived is at disadvantage. He have 1\4 hp, he need time after confirmation to actually transition to previous PoV while can be killed in the process. He cannot counter that whatever he does, his best hope is that no one notices him.

    It actually is. But beside that, I doubt anyone really gonna bother over such nuances when it comes to a gameplay change such as resurrection nades or how resurrection works.

    1. Essentially you execute any enemy you kill at no effort\cost and such speed that it cannot be countered. Hardly anyone have a medic behind him to insta resurect him in case somebody kills him.
    2. Medics will be less useful as a class in terms of support since they wont be able to resurrect people at current rate. Top it of with their abilities becoming useless in sizeable amount of ally deaths due to such feature effectively reducing them to cases when ally dies to indirect damage such as explosives and only if said explosives don't hit repeatedly.
    3. There is certain bases (biolabs for example) where one side can gain very strong defending positions which are almost impenetrable if there is alot of people on both sides. This is not making things any easyer for attackers.
    4. Infantry generally is pretty fragile and in any big fight can die rapidly and often (more then once per 40 seconds, especially if playing aggressively).
    5. As consequance it will be hard to maintain an infantry based frontline, especially against vehicles.
    6. In general it will slow down the pace of overall infantry combat due to combatants being forced back to respawns instead of being revived close to the fight despite having medics effectively negating offensive. As side effect unorganized infantry will become scattered even more around a hex then it already tends to do making for even easier lone kills and making overall death more prevalent for such infantry in general. Spawn points may become more important then medics. Favoring more entranched forces then anything else, so basically slowly turning infantry play into camp fest, which is not particularly exciting to play.
  11. DrBash00

    Yep, revive granades are a nice tool!

    Give us more tools! Dont nerf existing tools to death....

    Maby buff the healing granade or bring out a granade that kills shortly revived ppl, whatever you do dont nerf everything to death...
    • Up x 1
  12. Makora

    The flash and sound can easily be missed in combat. And it is also same for all factions. There is a delay between the sound and the visual effect. The visual effect lasts only for a moment. Some people don't accept revives, some do. Sometimes the grenade does nothing.
    But that is all irrelevant when you are trying to hold a room from advancing enemies. Again, most everyone is more interested in the very alive enemies outside, rather then the maybe ones dead behind them.

    I play TR and if anything, the NC are even bigger culprits of mass soviet pushes these days. There have evolved "standard ways to capture a base" And most old players have come to know them or at least figure out who to follow around when things get going. The new players will usually follow a group or individual around and when those people know what they are doing, the new guy will unknowingly at first do the right thing. The FNG will learn from this that if he did this X, he had more success then not doing X. So do X when in this base.

    By unaffordable casualties. I mean even if the attackers push through to a point, their numbers will be drained to where they will be easy to clean off the point if the defense can gather up for a counterattack fast enough.

    Physics and logic would also like to play. Secondly things that go through walls can not be countered by any conscious, active action. Also, it forks over the defensive perimeter by ignoring some rather important things like solid objects.

    You'd be surprised. Since I already mentioned the collective experience pool of the player base has grown. There are far more experienced players then there are new ones. Standard "procedures" have developed. The best spots for sunderers, most effective bottlenecks etc. And this game IS nothing more then cannon fodder. There is no other ultimately necessary objective then having more of your guys on the capture points then your enemies. The gist of the plan might just be "Push to point, win" But how this is best achieved, the technique, has more refinement to it.

    You'd be right in a 1-to-1 situation. But I point back to where you can't kill everyone again. Someone will get you in their sights and kill you dead before you can finish off all the newly undead. They are at a disadvantage, no argument there. If there's three enemis to you. You can't kill all three more then once before needing to reload or getting blindsided by someone else.

    1-5 you got points but I didn't say the system was perfect. I said it was an idea. A spitball one at that. Maybe you can only execute with small arms fire? Maybe only with a secondary? What if it took just as much damage to execute a person then it took to down him? These are all variables to toy around with and there are many more.
    As for 6. YES! I want the game to slow down a bit. Right now there's a chaotic whirlwind. There is very little of this ebb and flow where one side makes some ground, then the other side. Usually, fights are very one sided. Either the attackers overrun the defenders, or the attackers can't get a foothold and the defenders begin pushing out, reversing the roles and generally overrun the now defenders in the next base.
    I also don't see that much harm in further promoting the social aspect of the game. Running around alone is all fine and dandy but being in a large unit that has even a rudimentary level of teamwork creates a bigger feeling of size. You get to glimpse the bigger picture. And social interaction is what creates communities.

    I am not a developer. I am just a player and that gives me a very narrow window of information to base my opinions and suggestions on. All I can do is maybe get some gears going in the heads of people who have actual say in what happens in this game. Maybe my ideas can be refined or used in other ways. Maybe they give insight to something they wanted to know. Maybe I just want to get my word out. I am fully aware that nothing might change. But if I don't get my word out, nothing will change.
  13. Ragnarox

    Revive granade is VANU technology, NERF REVIVE GRANADE, Highby pls! :)
  14. hostilechild

    Its interesting but imagine the griefing that would occur. Wipe a room of enemy, toss your rez grenade. They revive and you kill them again easily.
    It would have to have some IFF to determine at least 1 friendly was there then revive everyone.
  15. TripleVasectomy

    I suppose adding shield repair to the heal grenades would make them more attractive. Their real feature right now is the cool synthesizer effect. If they gave that particle effect to something like repair sunderers as a SC effect I'd be ok with it.
  16. Shiaari


    That's a very good point.
  17. dstock

    I agree with you, just certed them a few months ago, and I've only recently found a viable use for them.

    As a Sunderer Driver

    Loadout:
    Combat Medic
    Triage 5
    Shield Gen 5 or 6 (need ~6m to be really useful, IMO)
    Healing Nades w/ Grenade Bandolier

    I dont have it perfected yet, but judging by comments from my squad mates and randoms who are repairing my deployed Sundy, this setup gives them a fighting chance by topping them off while they're under fire.

    I typically run FS and ProxRep or Blockade with this, and the enemies don't seem to appreciate my team-play mentality, lmao.
    • Up x 1
  18. vanu123

    Interesting, might have to try that sometime. Also triage doesn't work on maxs does it, I wouldn't think so but I'll ask anyway.
  19. Sabreno Carvaroni

    It does heal maxes. I still wonder whether it stacks tho. Would love to make a battle-sunderer with 3 medics, that's like best setup for infantry support and for little resource cost too.
    • Up x 1
  20. acksbox

    I'd be very pissed that I was too stupid to kill the much softer medic target first.