[Suggestion] Replace ZOE with jumpjets

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Rentago, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. Keiichi58

    Here's a clue for you, Shockwave44...

    I played a VS MAX back in Planetside 1

    Do you know how many structures you could get up on in Planetside 1? Approximately 8 to 9 of them... Mostly bases, two different types of towers, and trees.

    In that design, MAX armors did not have the following:

    1) Dual weapons - MAX armors were FIXED with either 1 AI Weapon, 1 AV weapon or 1 AA Weapon. The TR Max, while it was 'dual' Cyclers, Dual Pounders or Dual Bursters, were tuned to the level of the same as the the VS and NC MAX with regards to expected firepower, IE: Dual Cyclers was NO MORE POWERFUL than the VS MAX Pulsar or the NC MAX Scattercannon. In most case, the TR griped and complained on how underpowered the TR MAX weapons were, including the TR Burster MAX because it wasn't a lockon weapon like the VS Starfire or the NC Sparrow.

    2) The VS trait is NOT just mobility, it is versatility. The VS weapon Systems allowed the ability to do more than one role to a degree. The VS Pulsar MAX had normal and 'AP' ability for an AI MAX, which was effective mostly for Infantry and slightly for anti-MAX. And the Mobility factor never factored in for anything other than the MAX. Your argument for the 'mobility' for infantry dies due to the Light Assault and additionally, ignoring the fact that again, for the VS in Planetside 1, infantry was the same across the board with the exception of the MAX Armors.

    3) No Armor specialization trait - None of the MAX armors had Armor specializations, such as Flak Armor, Kinetic Armor or Nano-repair armor... And again, the last one is IMPORTANT to note here. The major drawback to the VS Jumpjets is the limitation of where it can 'hide' but even when it does hide... It still relied on being repaired by people. All the MAX armors still relied on that. Planetside 2 changed this dynamic by having larger bases, with more breach points or non-existent choke points and *gasp* the one hinderance to VS MAX armors doors that require GROUNDED troops to manually hack/open for the MAX or the other side to foolishly open for you.

    4)Planetside 1 had much more visibility about MAX armors unless sensor jammers were put in place or hacked motion sensors were causing confusion. Which means movement of people were easily seen which is not the case in this game. This game has no sensor jammers at the moment, but at the same time, there is no obvious detection of player movement without sensor/motion detectors or Q spotting. This made even the 'mobile' VS vulnerable. This game relies more on player reporting contacts more than before. Which means the 'stealth' factor of MAX armors are more than they were in Planetside 1.

    5) MAX armors could only be purchased in TWO places... A BASE or a TOWER. In Planetside 2... You can get a MAX from a Sunderer (IE AMS in Planetside 1's terms) MAX Armors had to slog across from the nearby Tower to the base's 3 choke points, be Airdropped from a Galaxy (Which only had 2 MAX armor slots) or from an Empire Specific Sunderer (Which only had 2 MAX Slots as well) That's it. This put the MAX at risk of being smacked down before it got into the base proper... Likewise going from a base to base or base to tower.

    So at this point the mobility factor is not really the 'lynchpin' argument for the MAX. Also, it is covered by the ZOE part which is why it failed so miserably in Planetside 2 until the change to limit is usefulness based on HOW the bases are made which brings again the reason why it was believed to give the MAX that ability may be overpowered and the thought that the ZOE 30% extra damage taken would be 'ideal', but fell flat on its face when the Kinetic and Flak Armor portion came into light to help mitigate that as well as the easier to avoid most explosive ranged attacks that were necessary against more experienced MAX users.

    And lastly... As a nail into your argument...

    NC Phoenix rounds were a bit easier to control to hit MAX armors than in PS2. 3 of them would take down a MAX. With only Bases and Towers being the places where you can make it more difficult, it was difficult to avoid getting hit unless you knew the weakness to dealing with Phoenix rounds.

    TR Strikers... ACTUALLY LOCKED ONTO MAX ARMORS. 6 rounds necessary to kill a MAX armor and if they were running in, they would get hit unless they broke LOS lockons.

    So again... The argument that mobility of the VS MAX is justification... The tools that hurt the VS MAX Jumpjet capability don't exist in Planetside 2 that were in Planetside 1... The terrain in Planetside 1 was not nearly as crazy ragged as this one, even on Cyssor where it was a big content with trees and hills and valleys, it had sections that made it difficult for a MAX to get in your face that the VS MAX would be JUST AS VULNERABLE as the NC or TR MAX armors.

    Again... Know your history of the systems... I know them well because I actually *gasp* played the game and use them.
    • Up x 4
  2. Shockwave44

    PS1=/=PS2

    Here's your problem. You're assuming the jump jets will be exactly the same at the LA.

    You're also assuming MAXes will survive on rooftops without engineers. The only place this might work are biolabs where air isn't a factor. Other than that, what VS MAX is going to want to be outside if air is present?

    The only people that say rooves are the British or someone from 1886.
    Since when does roof = win?

    On top of that, LA+C4=dead MAXes on roof.

    How is that any different than 50 lockdown MAXes in one room or 50 vanguards who pop their shields at the same time as they rush you? Guess what pal, someones got to win.

    Now you're just wasting my time. You have no physical proof or evidence of anything. You're complaining about something that doesn't even exist yet. This is why the PTS was created.
    • Up x 1
  3. Shockwave44

    I really don't care what games you played before this.

    I also never said mobility was their only trait, you just assumed that.

    Bottom line is, you're just another person in the kitchen. I'd be surprised if anything could ever get done with you in charge. Jump jets are miles better than ZOE, its a start, it should go to the PTS to get tweaked, end of story.
  4. Hegeteus

    As NC I think it would be cool if this was implemented, although maybe a bit annoying. It would bring some flavor into the game and I'm sure it could be balanced somehow(for example slow charge time compared to LA).
    • Up x 1
  5. squarebug

    If you don't like ZOE don't use it but I've played PS original with jumpy maxes and it's a bad idea for balance sake.
    • Up x 2
  6. Rentago


    I hear what you are saying, much like what everyone else is saying.

    The issue is, you guys won't consider it balanced unless we say the user self destructs after its use, which i s unreasonable.

    So let me explain point for point how this isn't any different from the ups and downs of other faction abilities (though they should also be reworked too).

    1. NC and TR both get a mobility downside to their ability: NC can't run, TR can't move at all.
    2. NC gets protection from damage only where they are facing and it isn't 100% damage blocking, TR get higher rate of fire but only at 180 degree angle.
    3. TR have to deploy their anchors, NC can't shoot or sprint during its use and it isn't instant activation either.

    None of these feature a self destruct after use sadly, both of them still need engineers and medics, and they only serve a niche one being good at defending and another good at leading a frontal assault on an entrenched enemy.

    What does JJ bring for the VS? If TR are defense and dakka, and NC are tank and heavy hitting, then VS are versatile and different in their approach.

    JJ serves as an alternative that doesn't increase their damage, nor their ability to tank, it means they can attack from a direction that isn't from the front like the NC nor hold a defensive line like the TR. ZOE was simply taking the TR's overcharge and giving it to the VS and that felt lazy and pretty much not empire unique to make the VS not VS, if the TR want it they can have their overcharge over anchor, but to be honest they could make it for all 3 empires since in planetside 1 they did give it to everyone.




    However what is being said,

    1. Is that they have no air control with JJ, which means they can only go up and down, unless they are running in the direction they want to jump to, using momentum. It is not very mobile.

    2. It will not allow them to fly around everywhere constantly, it will feature a long cool down and only enough energy to climb up to certain low areas making them half if not a fraction of what a light assault is capable of.

    3. They can't shoot while using it, and since they can only fly in one direction this means they are largely exposed in its use to enemy fire. We could have rocket launchers lock onto them while in use, as it would make sense and it is what would happen in PS1.

    If they are on a roof, they are where a medic or an engineer cannot follow, the nature of JJ as an ability means that they obviously do not carry a lot of extra ammo, nor does it mean they will be revived if they die nor repaired unless they flee, which they will flee at the first sign of a single light assault taking pot shots at them, making it easy to kick them off the roof if not kill them so your concerns of them being stuck up there is a bit ridiculous.

    You say its difficult for a light assault to C4 MAXs, but if they were on lets say the roof tops of a biodome, I'm pretty sure light assaults could have an easy time picking them off at range, and since they are more nimble and can easily traverse everywhere with ease they can easily out flank and kill a max. They aren't the almighty beings you all claim them to be. They can't simply fly all over the roof tops, they can't even fly forward! They need momentum to move forward! Do you even understand what that means, it means they won't use the jumppads to perform crazy C shape maneuvers, they will go where their momentum is pushing them, they can't platform from roof to roof because they don't have the energy nor the momentum to carry them forward fast enough! They aren't OP at all, jesus can't you guys even understand this? Do you even know how people play MAXs? Do you think they want to just die on a roof?

    I think the complaints about JJ come from the perspective of ignorance, as they aren't connecting the dots of how gameplay and function come together, and how it wouldn't be as OP as they want to believe it would be.
  7. Rentago


    as many have said, the VS could FLY really high in planetside, but none of that mattered when it came to the base or towers, as there were doors, it was pretty balanced there for that reason.

    That although they could hop the walls and get on the roof top of towers, they couldn't actually get inside them without someone to hack the doors for them, or an idiot to open the doors from the inside for them, leaving them stuck just being outside.

    It wasn't game breaking like everyone seems to claim, I find it odd everyone says PS1 has all these game breaking issues, and it honestly didn't, what WAS game breaking were BFRs and the lasher when it first came about, the mechanics of the lasher orbs were horribly broken for a long time, that was an issue.

    however max abilities and such didn't suffer as much problems as you'd like to claim they did, they filled the purpose of making the TR, NC, and VS different when you fought them, as they'd fight differently and approach bases in different manners.
  8. Keiichi58

    If you don't care... Stop posting... Don't bother talking anymore. I pointed out the very POINTS you are not willing to listen because *gasp* it was the reasons why the VS MAX had jump jets and what hampered it. You didn't want to listen.

    As for the never said mobility - That was your damn focus on the earlier post was literally about mobility, so that is hardly me 'assuming' it.

    Cause if you don't remember history or ignore it, you FAIL to understand the possibilities or the issues. But then again, since you aren't bothering to listen, then it is pointless to have any sort of discussion with a person who refuses to be anything more than an ignorant idiot. And seriously, you didn't want to hear the earlier points, and you think the PTS is going to work? Let's see the track record so far... ZOE, the Striker x4 so far, the Phoenix, the AV Turret... And also ignoring the point again that with Jumpjets with higher health pool and Nano-repair armor with dual weapons isn't going to be problematic. You haven't tried playing a balanced approach beyond one side, have you?
    • Up x 5
  9. Keiichi58

    The Jump jets in PS1 wasn't game breaking before because the TR had the Striker that was damn hurtful for the VS because it locked in on them. The NC had the Phoenix where you couldn't shoot them down and the terrain for pretty much all the continents weren't nearly as obstacle like as they are in PS2 nor the bases.
    • Up x 1
  10. Foxirus

    You ever see 11 TR maxes fall out of galaxy? All you see is death falling from the sky before its too late to realize they have secured the roof of the point and now nothing can enter.
  11. Goretzu

    Indeed - in PS1 MAX much lower DPS, had very specific weapon for AI, AV and AA and for each faction.
    PS1 also had much less abilibility for using vertical Jump Jets for an advantage (yet VS MAXs still managed it).

    This is exactly what people are saying, it was a problem in PS1 and PS2 the potential (and reality) would be they'd be a much, much, much worse problem.


    If they cannot fly they'll be no problem, if they can they will.
    If they cannot fly they won't be Jump Jets (al la LA and PS1 MAXs).

    Any ability for VS MAXs to get on to rooves etc. that other factions MAXs cannot get on to, will be an unbalancable problem.


    Regen MAXs are quite surviable without engis, and the very act of being vertically up means they will have more chance to ambush without taking damage (the very thing that allows LAs to exist in fact), but you seem to be assuming that VS MAXs won't just hop down for repair and reload. Which, of course, they will.


    And Vanu. :cool:
    Since when does being on a roof not equal and advantage? Why would anyone ever go up there if it wasn't? Have you ever played a LA? Have you in fact even actually ever played PS2 if you think being on a roof isn't an advantage? o_O

    Again I wonder if you've ever actually played LA or PS2. Much of the C4 power against MAX for LA is being able to drop it down, it's why C4 isn't as poweful on a HA against MAX dispite the HA being more durable - because the HA usually has to get close at the same level and deploy it, LAs can drop it from way up and out of direct sight.

    It would be a massive nerf for TR and NC LA if VS MAX were sudden up on their level all of the time, VS LA would conversely become much more powerful with MAX cover - again given the VS a ridculous onesided advantage.



    Lock-down MAXs are indeed very powerful at holding building, when mixed with Engi, Engi turrest Medics etc. and there's plenty of TR Outfits that basically specialise in doing just that.
    However Jump Jets would be used everywhere in PS2 (again PS2 has much more scope for JJs than PS1 ever did), it wouldn't be a situaitional advantage it would just be a plain advantage (infact there is almost no situation where JJs wouldn't be useful - as any PS1 VS MAXer would tell you they even have several uses in the middle of completely flat terrain - avoiding fire, avoiding vehicles, gaining extra height to fire over something or at Air - some of those things likely wouldn't work so well in PS2, but many would, and remember that is the very worst possible situation for JJs).


    Fortunately both myself and the Devs played PS1 and PS2 we both know the issues with giving MAXs Jump Jets in PS2 and the hideous results that would follow.

    It is exactly the same reason why the won't give NC MAXs (and NC MAX only ) orbital strike. :D
    • Up x 3
  12. Copasetic

    No, I've never seen that. Know why? Because it takes teamwork and coordination which makes it a rare occurrence. Give that ability to every TR MAX by himself and you'll see it happen all the time.

    Where did I say anything about a self destruct? I asked you what downside this ability comes with, it's a simple question. Both the other abilities come with big mobility penalties while fighting, I think you're being the unreasonable one with your expectation that jump jets get special treatment.
  13. TriumphantJelly

    A jump BOOST or jump horizontal distance would be nice to include IN ZOE, might, to some extent, make it worth using over C4 on your head (suicide bombing) and Charge.
  14. Movoza

    You seem to assume that they stay on a roof at all times or something. The jumpjet breaks normal logistical lines. For example. Normally you are in a biolab and have to take on the enemies position. You have to go dead on, full into view of their units and get some rockets to the face, turrets start shooting and you have a general small arms bullet hoze that would fill the empire state building. It would take a lot of MAX units and other stuff to take their position.
    Insert the jumpjet. Lots of places are lowly defended and provide entry points for LA from the back. A LA often doesn't do enough damage and can relatively easily be dealt with. Also LA are less prevalent in the meta- or teamgame. Instead of 2 LA, 2 MAX units go up. You don't have heavy weapons ready. They are heavily resistant to small arms, They are outside of 90+% of the frontline's view. The relative ease with which you can take out all or a giant portion of them is astonishing. While you are wrecking stuff and break their lines so much easier than a LA can, your own forces move up. That is just with 2 MAXes against lines that would take 10+ MAX to break it. Who cares that the MAX units are disposable? You probably revive them anyway when the line is broken.
    If a frontline was to defend itself against two MAX units going up, they would need to sacrifice a relative large amount of their line to set up the second front. This makes their whole setup weak. If there are even more possible fronts that you would normally have to access through those frontlines, they are in big, big trouble.
    Although situational, there are too many situations, especially in bases where the infantry combat is prevalent, where these MAX units would be way too powerful. Compared to a single directional shield and a complete stop of mobility in exchange for higher firing speed, the jumpjets take the cake. You can have an anchor with shield, shooting and shielding yourself at the same time for all I care. I would want the jumpjet.
  15. Rentago



    in a biolab situation, where the only way in is a face full of lead or a teleporter that is surrounded, and you think a max is going to have the momentum and speed to fly over all that to reach a balcony without dying due to eating rockets or something?

    as ive said before and no matter how much you guys have replied, we've covered our bases in this idea, it really wouldnt be as op as you guys keep trying to stress it to be because the perspective is, "it will be just like the light assault" and you keep ignoring that it isnt like that makes your arguements relevant.

    i know higby doesnt pay you guys for the blind devotion and ignorance on this subject, why cant you guys just realize this could easily be balanced and functional, we practically did all the problem solving!
  16. Movoza

    Regardless you seem to misunderstand that ignoring part of the ground game isn't OP. You seem to think that a surrounded teleporter room in the biolab will prevent all attacks by a jumpjet MAX. One room often has a less well defended side, which is now a highway for VS MAX to get up on the bridge and attack people that are guarding the stairs en mass. The other two have one side that has a wall to prevent direct fire to and from the teleporter room. Scaling that wall will give a definite advantage when trying to break that siege. Much more than shields and lockdown would do. At times they are pushing back or the opposing faction isn't in a good position yet, they will be able to jump up onto the balcony and start killing there. It is bad enough that a light assault or two do this sometimes (one of the reasons it is my favourite class), but a MAX just has a way too high power difference.
    You have tower stomping with the LA, which is pretty powerful with good LA. Although a MAX won't be able to fire and has to prepare his jumps much more, it will still be pretty damn powerful. They will just suck up a few shots the moment they try a frontal attack at some guys. They will be able to get both a hight and a surprise advantage with ease, which is way to powerful for a freaking MAX.
    Lastly, there are also a lot of bases where going down with a MAX might be a problem. With a jumpjet MAX this would also be eliminated, allowing for more backstabbing with a frontal assault beast. Hopping onto the building that has a heavily guarded front door and dropping at the back, or simply scaling walls, is overpowerd in my book.
    I will say it again. Ignoring part of the ground game is not suited for the MAX. The MAX is a force multiplier with high power and low mobility in mind, making it a frontal assault unit. Even the charge ability follows the ground game. Any suggestions to escape the MAX's predefined role and destroying a certain balance will be heavily scrutinised before I'll accept them.

    Although I agree that ZOE doesn't seem that powerful at the moment, giving them a jumpjet instead does not garner my support. Suggest another flexibility.
  17. Keiichi58

    Actually, there is 2 exit points in the biolab teleporter rooms, technically, 4 if you count the windows for twoof them, 5 for the one nearest the spawn room area. In most of the biolabs, the spawn room teleporter room is also blocked by a few convenient walls to make it so a MAX providing suppression support through two of the windows, can allow another MAX with jump jets to get to the roof of the teleporter room, suppress anyone hiding there and get more units out that way. With smoke cover, makes it even harder for those trying to watch while suppression is going. Of course, this also means some players actually using 'tactical' intelligence, which can happen.

    The thing is, the Biolab only consititutes 3 of the many bases out there on most of the continents. At the same time, the TR or NC have to be pretty good to hit a target with RLs, most of which will not be so. And from my own experience as a MAX armor, even without using ZOE. Short of two or three actually focusing on you, I can get away from HAs firing rockets after one hits me and that is with Nanorep armor. Experienced MAX players can survive an exit point charge, which is why MAX rushes are a pain at times, now take a MAX rush with Jump Jets. The limitations that were in PS1 are now only down to what shields are in place and the inability to overload generators, but suppression is going to be a key factor for MAX armors, and removing the choke points for them for the VS will give VS an much more substantial advantage that would not be within reason gameplay wise.
    • Up x 2
  18. Shockwave44

    No, we already did. Unless YOU can come up with another one, this is it for now.
  19. Shadowomega

    Dunno how many experienced it, but I have been in a couple Biolab fights last year with NC splat maxes on the roof of SCU shield building over the teleporter. Look up Planetside 2 Biolab Parkour if you don't believe it. It wasn't pretty, mainly due to having your head pop over the edge and seeing the feet of a max then dead. VS can't do instant kill so LA do stand a chance of C4ing the Max.

    While there is more verticality in PS 2 there are multiple ways it could have some balance. The Max could have more fuel but less acceleration so less height then the LA versions. Not to mention while flying you would have the Jump COF hit. Also sustainability of ammo and health is of a concern.

    Note instead of replacing the ZoE, we do know their likely to have another set of Max Abilities on the way so that would be a good time for them to give it a full on test.
  20. Villanuk

    Whats wrong with giving its current ability a little buff, I cant see why this cant happen now for the VS?