[Suggestion] Replace ZOE with jumpjets

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Rentago, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. z1967

    Planetside 1 also had far less verticality and most fight were fought underground. There is a huge level design difference between PS1 and PS2, 15 minutes in either would show that.
    • Up x 3
  2. Shootybob

    Drifter jumpjet max please.
  3. Santiak

    While I concede this ability won't make it into the game, and I agree that getting access to areas any other class save for LA couldn't get access to would be imbalanced, I'm going to play devils advocate a bit more - and hope someone comes up with a suggestion to give all MAX units a unique, usefull Empire Specific ability in the mean time:

    You counter-argument was the reason why I included the limitation of it only amounting to just enough to scale 1 story (low balcony, small flight of stairs), meaning the spot they'd be able to get to, would either be the aforementioned low balcony, or the relatively exposed roof of a low building. In some instances, avoid the stairs and hope the element of surprise makes up for the reduced effectiveness of their weapons.
    In rare instances, they might be able to climb to the second story of a building - IF that building has a balcony or outcrop - granted that they again manage to find enough room to gain the necessary momentum, and have enough undisturbed time for the ability to recharge, let alone their weapons to come out of another cycle of reduced effectiveness.

    Considering the weapons would be severely reduced in terms of damage, jumping on any (low) roof in an attempt to be opportunistic would more often than not end badly, because the low roof would be insufficient to provide enough cover for the MAX before it could even try to take advantage of the situation - either leaving it exposed to the hostiles "below", considering the low angle, or open to LA fire from, which they might attempt to return fire, but again, because of reduced weapon effectiveness, they'd likely be out-damaged.
    Or the enemy force would have moved one to another area of the base before the weapons came out of their reduced state.

    Effectively, any attempt to use the ability opportunistically (flanking) would result in a relatively exposed MAX unit on a low roof, or a MAX lingering in an exposed area with hostiles all over, trying (most often unsuccesfully due to ability limitations) to scale to the second level of a building.
    Instead, the ability shines more when attempting to traverse steep hills or medium sized obstacles, and even then, doing so directly into an enemy force would have a high probability of ending badly - with the sole exception of when they, for example, manage to surprise one or two enemy units after avoiding a low flight of stairs, but any more hostiles than that, and they'd be down before they could manage to kill more than 1, if that.
  4. Keiichi58

    Yes... Planetside 1 had all VS MAX armors with Jumpjets by Default... You also sort of ignored how the bases were designed back then as well. Like in order to get to the Cap Points, even the 'easiest' of the bases being the Tech Plant and the towers... In order for a VS MAX with jumpjets to get into a base, the biggest stop was the doors which need infantry, who had to use an aircraft or router to get past the initial choke points of the two Vehicle gateways or the backdoor choke points.

    You also conveniently ignored also that the MAX armors were AI, AV and AA... Single arm weapons, with lower TTKs than what we have in Planetside 2. You also ignored the fact that most of the bases are larger than the original Planetside 1 and in the case of the three bases... Amp Stations have 4 open areas, hard to cover because spawn room placements are even WORSE than what they were in Planetside 1 to get to defensive positions, even with the Tunnels, the two that get to the walls are not exactly placed to cover the two choke points in the amp station. The Tech plant has only 2 ground entry choke points, but there are 4 other ways to exploit via jump method as mentioned before, and the Biolab has 3 teleport rooms and two major openings to the proper. This also ignores the fact that a lot of the smaller, non-cookie cutter bases are even MORE exposed to a degree with major exposures to air suppression, so a jump capable MAX will be less hampered than the ground ones and again, able to take fire better than light assaults.

    So again... Examine the basic logic.
    • Up x 4
  5. Shockwave44

    Wow, you figured out the VS trait is mobility. Examine that logic.
  6. Goretzu

    That doesn't change that it would be unbalancable in PS2, the Devs realised this in pre-alpha and I can't see them unrealising it.

    Part of the problem is that it is very hard to think of a good VS MAX abilitiy, but that reality doesn't therefore make Jump Jets a good idea or sensible (or anything but hideously daft balance-wise).

    Although there's also the argument that Lock-down and Aegis Shield aren't massively great either, as well as the issue that IMO MAX in PS2 have too much DPS and not enough durability, making them hard to balance to begin with.
    • Up x 1
  7. Goretzu

    An NC trait is defence, that still doesn't mean that an NC-only Death Star style shield around every NC base would be a sensible or balanced idea.


    To be remotely balanced against Jump Jets, Lock-down would likely have to lose all its imobility (and maybe even gain a mobility buff when it is on) and the Aegis Sheild would have to be 100% all enclosing, be able to be fired through and be 2-3 times its current strength.

    And even then Jump Jets may well be the best option.

    It would be plain daft.
    • Up x 5
  8. t31os

    You want to see it proven? Ok, but let's give it to all maxes, TR, NC and VS..... Oh wait, no, no, no... you want this purely as a VS thing right? Tell ya what, you can have the TR lockdown or NC shield and let's add the jumpjets to the TR or NC instead.

    Does that sound good still? I'd bet it doesn't...
    • Up x 1
  9. Rentago

    RADARX!

    APPARENTLY people here believe a few things:

    NC should get the same overshield heavy assaults do, or expand shield coverage and allow them to sprint with the shield up.

    TR should forget about anchoring and go with the overcharge (which is ZOE essentially but doing all that anchoring does without losing mobility), unless you buff maxes with leg shields or something that gives them a damage reduction buff to the front. In which case, give them some neat thing like the engineer's turret shield that comes out from their legs or something.

    VS should get jumpjets, but it should function much like the first where they can't control direction while in the air and rely on momentum before the jump, that they can't shoot WHILE they are using the ability, and that it doesn't provide enough energy to climb beyond enough to scale base walls, shouldn't recharge very fast, infact it should recharge very slowly, taking as much as 60 seconds to reach full power again so they can't be hopping everywhere. This will prevent them also from flying over vehicles and shooting down at them and it obviously won't out maneuver a light assault filling a balanced niche use and a very different play style for VS.

    Anyone who complains about this is a scrub and should go back to EA products.
  10. t31os

    Not agreeing = scrub.

    Yeah, that's the way to win people over.
    • Up x 2
  11. Rentago


    its purely a battle of people demanding this game to become call of duty or battlefield and a battle to want this game to be more planetside, there really isn't anything unreasonable about some requests on these forums, some people want something that would be best for this game for their faction and others, the problem is there are a lot of people who don't, and honestly there is no nice way to go about it, I'd rather they go to a game that already caters to their already met needs.

    Like why would people want maxes removed?
    Why would people want vehicles removed?
    Why would people want continent locking and continents removed?
    Why would people oppose a game for being what it is kinda meant to be?

    They could just, go to the existing games that aren't planetside if they are against its core idea, not saying the developers here wouldn't want their money, but I don't think they should twist planetside into what it isn't, and I don't like that factions are a bit lacking in being empire unique, but these people feel that if one faction has something they don't its unfair, or unbalanced, they even forget they are playing a "faction" to begin with sometimes, and I don't feel an equal playing field is fun, since I want fighting the NC to behave differently than when fighting against the TR or VS. I shouldn't use the same strategy to deal with one empire as the other when it comes to fighting them, they should have strengths and weaknesses.

    This will hurt feelings I guess to tell people this though, and how they don't care for me or others I only do the same to them. However these forums are like 100 people, and the developers are on reddit 24/7 in a protective hugbox, and while higby visits 4chan, I do not think RadarX would skimp out on his job, hes here to read all our hate and translate it into love the developers could ingest and crush to be tossed aside, much like most of our hopes and dreams.
  12. Shockwave44

    Whats with all this rock paper scissors?

    Just make each faction GOOD at what they are supposed to do. You're there complaining like, "well if he has that then we have to have this." Stop it, that's what children do. You know, its ok if a faction is actually good at their own thing.
  13. Shockwave44

    Says you.

    And then they made ZOE. Good call.

    You're just full of assumptions.

    Just stick with balancing one at a time.
  14. t31os

    In PS1 jumpjets worked for the VS max, this isn't PS1 though, you don't need to see it to know it wouldn't work in this game.

    I use to secondary VS on PS1 primarily for thresher(i wish they'd bring it back, it was awesome to drive), lasher and the max jumpjets.
    • Up x 2
  15. Copasetic

    TR MAX can't move at all while using its ability and is limited to a 180 degree pivot. NC MAX moves much more slowly and can't shoot while using its ability. So what downsides do the jump jets bring? You've listed a whole bunch of "buts" about the ability itself but no downside for using it other than "can't shoot while jumping", which is pretty weak considering how short a jump up to a base wall is going to be.
  16. Goretzu

    And the Devs, their opinion tends to carry a little bit of weight! :eek:
    Indeed, but bear in mind that ZOE at its worst was likely less powerful than JJ would be at their best.
    What is a good VS MAX ability that isn't ZOE or Jump Jets then?
    Impossible with Jump Jets as they would be way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Lock-down, Aegis Shield or indeed Charge.
    That's what I just said, Lock-down and Aegis Shield would need to be outrageously buffed to remotely be on-par with Jump Jets - it's just not going to happen IMO.
    • Up x 2
  17. Shockwave44

    More assumptions of something that doesn't even exist yet.

    Why? You're not basing your rejections on anything. Whatever I say next, you'll just respond with, "oh too OP, it'll never work."

    A MAX on a roof is not OP. Its just a MAX on a roof. You can get MAXes on roofs now. Is that OP?

    How can you buff something that exists against something which doesn't...
  18. MAXArmar

    Why would one put development time in an ability that, even in the most OP form imaginable, would still be worse than charge for 99% of the combat purposes?
  19. Goretzu

    I've played PS1 with MAXs with Jump Jets.
    I've played PS2 with LAs with Jump Jets.

    That is no assumption, that is exactly how it would be.
    So you can't think of one either, my point exactly.
    It's not "a MAX on a roof" though, not even remotely, it is "one faction being able to get as many MAXs as it wants on as many rooves as it wants".

    Which is a completely overpowered thing for one faction to have (and arguably a bad thing for the game even if every faction had it).
    Quite easily because some people understand balance, what is balanced, what would be balanced and would indeed would not be balanced.
    • Up x 3
  20. DxAdder

    Wow some much VS and MAX hate here..

    I don't see JJ being OP but to be clear I'm not advocating that they be as good as an LA's JJ either.

    I wouldn't want the MAX rank 5 to be at best the same as the LA's rank 3.

    So what if MAx is on a roof ? It's exposed and un-supported no repair/rez/ammo.

    JJ would be used to gain position or to flank.

    Also I do think that the TR & NC abilities need work also but right now the VS have a completely useless ability so it should be addressed first or all three at the same time.

    Does anyone have another idea beside JJ ? would luv to hear it.